WOW Factor! Wrapless PH & Ivory Ginacue Rasputin Tribute Cue!!

[Buster8001]

Gerry

Rambow is dead and Ernie is not. If one wanted a Rasputin cue one could order one from a living breathing cue maker, the one that invented this cue, Ernie. Your cue is not built in the style of Ernie, is as an complete copy of a cue Ernie still makes and sells. There's a difference between building a cue based on a style and adding or enhancing it, somehow putting your spin on the design, or just flat completely copying it. If you can't see that, well then you can't, although your vision might be clouded in this case by what you are looking to sell.

Thanks

Kevin

Again, the only perceived difference is death. So a cue makers demise, followed by a "to be determined" time frame, is the only acceptable circumstance to copy his work? I'm sorry, but now you are "splitting hairs".

Did anyone jump on Tad's rear for copying Martin? Did anyone jump on Jerry's rear for copying Kers? Before you bring it up, I know these guys are a direct product of their mentors. So, let's play devil's advocate: if Viattorre had apprenticed with Gina, would this "tribute" be OK in your eyes?

Josh

 

[Buster8001]

This is an update to the regular forum rules.

If you are going to participate in the " Wanted / for Sale " area of AZB, your items for sale or trade MUST be pool related or strictly offered for trade for a pool related item.
Any Posts without an Item For Sale, Trade or Wanted to buy will be deleted.
"Price check" threads are not allowed.


There will be NO cash offers etc. for NON pool related items.

If you are going to post in another's sale or trade thread, if you are knocking their thread, you will received warnings and bans as with regular rule violations.

You have NO right to criticize or complain regarding pictures, prices etc.
Everyone is expected to participate in a civil manner and if there are violations, you may report them anonymously via the "report post " button in the upper right hand corner of each post.

Either buy from an individual or don't but knocking them is not an option.

It is also strongly suggested that you use an escrow service when making any purchase.

As always, feel free to ask questions if you don't understand something.

You can reach myself or Mike Howerton ( azhousepro ) if you need help.


Reported....

I have reported this thread, and all posts (including my own) not associated with the sale.

It is a load of crap.

Josh

 

[scsuxci]

I've never understood when people get offended because of a price of a cue or the cue itself.If its within the boundaries of the forum rules,who cares?Just like T.V,if you don't like the channel, just change it!

 

[kvinbrwr]

Yeah guys, I get the rules, knew them before I originally posted, knew it was a knock, and posted it anyway. The OP certainly had the right to report me to the mods and see their decision, he decided instead to withdraw the cue.

If someone posted for sale a cue you knew to be stolen would it be a knock to mention it? I think not.

If someone posted a cue you knew to be seriously flawed as perfect is it a knock to mention it, I think not. I think its protection of our community, but I also realize that not everyone thinks the way I do.

This cue was to me, a stolen design, so I mentioned it, the OP asked me to stop and I did, a few people joined in, he withdrew his cue and I thought it was a chance to say what I really thought.

To anyone that thinks that this cue's situation is somehow analogous to TAD/Martin or Franklin/Kershenbock, those situations are so different from this that it seems silly to mention them so I won't, but can you imagine anyone selling a TAD without putting TAD's name in the title?, selling a Franklin without his name or his brand name in the title?

The seller here had a cue that was made as a complete copy of a living HOF cue maker's most famous design without that maker's permission. The seller, who now states he he so proud of the quality of the copier's work, didn't even bother mentioning the maker's name in the title of his for sale thread. The builder stole Ernie's design, the seller used Ernie's name in his title in order to sell the copy. Calling that a "tribute"to Ernie seemed more than a little disingenuous to me, so I mentioned it.

Ernie copyrights a lot of his stuff, and does the work to update them and keep them current. He guards his brand, which has made him very successful, as jealously as Chanel or Tiffany guards theirs. For all I know, he might have rights on the Rasputin design and a legal claim on that cue, I haven't asked him because after the OP withdrew the cue there were no pics to show him.

Sorry to ruffle feathers. Anyone that feels the seller was actually harmed has to think the seller could have been successful in selling his cheap knock off with ring pop for 3K (a fact I didn't mention when he actually had the cue for sale).

Sorry guys, I thought selling a stolen design cue was like selling a stolen cue. The seller certainly could have reported my original post to the mods and if they thought it was a knock, they would have deleted it. He didn't go that way.

Kevin

 

[Cardinal_Syn]

Yeah guys, I get the rules, knew them before I originally posted, knew it was a knock, and posted it anyway. The OP certainly had the right to report me to the mods and see their decision, he decided instead to withdraw the cue.

If someone posted for sale a cue you knew to be stolen would it be a knock to mention it? I think not.

If someone posted a cue you knew to be seriously flawed as perfect is it a knock to mention it, I think not. I think its protection of our community, but I also realize that not everyone thinks the way I do.

This cue was to me, a stolen design, so I mentioned it, the OP asked me to stop and I did, a few people joined in, he withdrew his cue and I thought it was a chance to say what I really thought.

To anyone that thinks that this cue's situation is somehow analogous to TAD/Martin or Franklin/Kershenbock, those situations are so different from this that it seems silly to mention them so I won't, but can you imagine anyone selling a TAD without putting TAD's name in the title?, selling a Franklin without his name or his brand name in the title?

The seller here had a cue that was made as a complete copy of a living HOF cue maker's most famous design without that maker's permission. The seller, who now states he he so proud of the quality of the copier's work, didn't even bother mentioning the maker's name in the title of his for sale thread. The builder stole Ernie's design, the seller used Ernie's name in his title in order to sell the copy. Calling that a "tribute"to Ernie seemed more than a little disingenuous to me, so I mentioned it.

Ernie copyrights a lot of his stuff, and does the work to update them and keep them current. He guards his brand, which has made him very successful, as jealously as Chanel or Tiffany guards theirs. For all I know, he might have rights on the Rasputin design and a legal claim on that cue, I haven't asked him because after the OP withdrew the cue there were no pics to show him.

Sorry to ruffle feathers. Anyone that feels the seller was actually harmed has to think the seller could have been successful in selling his cheap knock off with ring pop for 3K (a fact I didn't mention when he actually had the cue for sale).

Sorry guys, I though selling a stolen design cue was like selling a stolen cue.

Kevin

Who exactly were you trying to protect? The seller did not misinform anyone from what I read. He laid it out in detail information what the cues is. I personally would not buy a cue that is a direct copy of another work but to each his own, he still has a right to sell cues without getting bashed. There's another cue for sale that's a "Southwest" tribute but I didn't see you post there.

 

[kvinbrwr]

The never ending peanut gallery that doesn't have clue... the build quality of this cue and any of Jackson Tans cues are second to none, the attention to detail impeccable!
the ring work can barely be felt... I just stated it to be sure any potential buyer was fully aware of everything about the cue!
If you actually knew anything about pool cues you'd be aware of the build quality of Viattorre cues:thumbup:

I think your cue is design theft, not a tribute. I think your NOT putting the name of the builder in the title while SHOWCSING the brand the design was stolen from is you participating in that rip. I've said my piece, if you want to start a new thread selling that cue I won't post in it. If Ernie has rights to the Rasputin design, you can deal with him directly.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[classiccues]

I want to ask a what if???

If as Kevin says Ernies might have a copyright on this cue.. with all the legal issues that AZ has been presented with recently, what if Ermie or his lawyer, contacted Mike and said you have a counterfeit Gina listed on the site and you HAVE to remove it and provide information on the seller..

Would you guys come down on Ernie for knocking this guys auction?

JV

 

[kvinbrwr]

I want to ask a what if???

If as Kevin says Ernies might have a copyright on this cue.. with all the legal issues that AZ has been presented with recently, what if Ermie or his lawyer, contacted Mike and said you have a counterfeit Gina listed on the site and you HAVE to remove it and provide information on the seller..

Would you guys come down on Ernie for knocking this guys auction?

JV

JV

That's the deal with rules, there are always gray areas. Like I said, the OP could have reported my posts (I'm assuming he didn't) and if the mods agreed they would have deleted them (and maybe disciplined me).

There was a member here selling a cue that little Kenny knew to be not a Gus (he had actually bought the cue and taken it to Barry and Barry said no). When the owner of the cue posted it for sale, little Kenny came on and let all prospective buyers know that the authority on Gus already had passed a negative judgement on that cue. Was that posting a knock in a For Sale thread? Obviously, but was it wrong? I think not.

Trademark or not, I can guarantee one thing, Ernie Gutierrez would not consider that cue to be a "tribute" to him.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[Atlatlien]

It's not counterfeit if he's not trying to pass it off as a Gina, so that is irrelevant. The seller was upfront and honest about who made the cue from the beginning and certainly doesn't deserve the shit-storm this thread turned into.

"What-if" questions are only going to stir the pot here. Bottom line is, The seller did not try to pull one over on anyone. Some folks are making him out to be the villain here. He is only trying to sell a cue. Give the guy a break FFS!

 

[Matt_24]

Who exactly were you trying to protect? The seller did not misinform anyone from what I read. He laid it out in detail information what the cues is. I personally would not buy a cue that is a direct copy of another work but to each his own, he still has a right to sell cues without getting bashed. There's another cue for sale that's a "Southwest" tribute but I didn't see you post there.

Ding, Ding, Ding. Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

 

[Matt_24]

I think your cue is design theft, not a tribute. I think your NOT putting the name of the builder in the title while SHOWCSING the brand the design was stolen from is you participating in that rip. I've said my piece, if you want to start a new thread selling that cue I won't post in it. If Ernie has rights to the Rasputin design, you can deal with him directly.

Thanks

Kevin[/QUOTE/]

The OP made a huge mistake by not simply listing this cue for what it was. Associating it with the GINA name was dumb....

I don't know enough about GINACUES to know if this is an exact rip-off....but let's say it was - I see another post by CLASSIC CUES with two cues that are "rip-offs" of a Balabushka. I didn't see any posts stating, "How dare they?". I see other cuemakers that copy Szambotis, Ginacues, etc. Didn't Searing copy a Ginacue design for Will Prout? Hey, I love the cue. I've heard others say, "Oh - but it had gold work/silver work." My answer is, "So?" it was still a Gina design. Hey, I love that cue. I think it is awesome and have ZERO problem with anyone making a cue like that.

I just don't get get why some cuemakers get singled out and others don't.

I've seen some early GINACUES that were titlist forearms and classic styled butts........what if Rambo had said, "That is my design. You're ripping me off."

I see other cues daily, by brand name makers, that look like Bushkas, Southwests, Szambotis, whatever..... I don't see any attacks. I appreciate passion.....but despise hypocricy.

I heard someone classify another as the "AZ Elite." Message board "elite"? Ok......

 

[kvinbrwr]

I think your cue is design theft, not a tribute. I think your NOT putting the name of the builder in the title while SHOWCSING the brand the design was stolen from is you participating in that rip. I've said my piece, if you want to start a new thread selling that cue I won't post in it. If Ernie has rights to the Rasputin design, you can deal with him directly.

Thanks

Kevin[/QUOTE/]

The OP made a huge mistake by not simply listing this cue for what it was. Associating it with the GINA name was dumb....

I don't know enough about GINACUES to know if this is an exact rip-off....but let's say it was - I see another post by CLASSIC CUES with two cues that are "rip-offs" of a Balabushka. I didn't see any posts stating, "How dare they?". I see other cuemakers that copy Szambotis, Ginacues, etc. Didn't Searing copy a Ginacue design for Will Prout? Hey, I love the cue. I've heard others say, "Oh - but it had gold work/silver work." My answer is, "So?" it was still a Gina design. Hey, I love that cue. I think it is awesome and have ZERO problem with anyone making a cue like that.

I just don't get get why some cuemakers get singled out and others don't.

I've seen some early GINACUES that were titlist forearms and classic styled butts........what if Rambo had said, "That is my design. You're ripping me off."

I see other cues daily, by brand name makers, that look like Bushkas, Southwests, Szambotis, whatever..... I don't see any attacks. I appreciate passion.....but despise hypocricy.

I heard someone classify another as the "AZ Elite." Message board "elite"? Ok......

I'd like to respond but I don't understand. How did Searing and Will copy a Gina? Are you talking about Will's Searing box cue?

Thanks

Kevin

 

[bobroberts]

[QUOTE=Matt_24




I don't know enough about GINACUES to know if this is an exact rip-off....but let's say it was - I see another post by CLASSIC CUES with two cues that are "rip-offs" of a Balabushka. I didn't see any posts stating, "How dare they?". I see other cuemakers that copy Szambotis, Ginacues, etc. Didn't Searing copy a Ginacue design for Will Prout? Hey, I love the cue. I've heard others say, "Oh - but it had gold work/silver work." My answer is, "So?" it was still a Gina design. Hey, I love that cue. I think it is awesome and have ZERO problem with anyone making a cue like that.

Don't know where you got your info but your dead wrong about Searing copying a Gina cue for Will Prout.

 

[classiccues]

I don't know enough about GINACUES to know if this is an exact rip-off....but let's say it was - I see another post by CLASSIC CUES with two cues that are "rip-offs" of a Balabushka. I didn't see any posts stating, "How dare they?". I see other cuemakers that copy Szambotis, Ginacues, etc. Didn't Searing copy a Ginacue design for Will Prout? Hey, I love the cue. I've heard others say, "Oh - but it had gold work/silver work." My answer is, "So?" it was still a Gina design. Hey, I love that cue. I think it is awesome and have ZERO problem with anyone making a cue like that.

Don't know where you got your info but your dead wrong about Searing copying a Gina cue for Will Prout.

I will clear up Matts post. I have a thread in the gallery where there are three cues. A Verl Horn and 2 Mike Fedunkas. The Horn, is a Balabushka copy. Certain people had Verl make these specifically for them, I'll let you decide WHY.

The Mike Fedunkas are simple classic design cues both using Szam prongs. However, at the time these were made cue design theft issues were NOT being bought up. I can show you MANY instances where designs are borrowed and they are in a brochure. Ernie made a cue in the 60's, in fact there is one on ebay, that has been copied by Black and I believe Stroud. Its called the ivory Crown.When I say copy, lets say used the design. No one says anything, no one said at the time that they were being made that there is / was an issue.

This is a relatively new complaint and a lot of it has to do with the ease in which you can make a copy. (CNC and accuracy) No matter how difficult it might have been for you, once drawn it can be made fairly easily by many.

JV

 

[Soulweb]

The seller has stopped even trying to sell the cue? There are more unintentional "bumps" here than you could hope for. Some of the people posting on this very thread would be insanely jealous of it! Relist it. Crap happens. Forums by nature are opinion driven. Don't think that because of what's transcribed here your cue won't sell.

The title of the sale was a bit ambitious, but it got me to look. It's hardly the first time this sales pitch has been used. And it appears the OP was crystal clear about what he was selling. Who cares what it is? Unless it's illegal...and it isn't, then let it ride. For someone I'm sure it will make a nice cue and find a nice home.

 

[kvinbrwr]

I will clear up Matts post. I have a thread in the gallery where there are three cues. A Verl Horn and 2 Mike Fedunkas. The Horn, is a Balabushka copy. Certain people had Verl make these specifically for them, I'll let you decide WHY.

The Mike Fedunkas are simple classic design cues both using Szam prongs. However, at the time these were made cue design theft issues were NOT being bought up. I can show you MANY instances where designs are borrowed and they are in a brochure. Ernie made a cue in the 60's, in fact there is one on ebay, that has been copied by Black and I believe Stroud. Its called the ivory Crown.When I say copy, lets say used the design. No one says anything, no one said at the time that they were being made that there is / was an issue.

This is a relatively new complaint and a lot of it has to do with the ease in which you can make a copy. (CNC and accuracy) No matter how difficult it might have been for you, once drawn it can be made fairly easily by many.

JV

Joe

I still don't get Matt's Ginacue/Prout/Searing reference, do you? I mean Searing made Will a box cue, but I don't remember it being a copy of the Ed Kelly box cue Gina (which Will also owns), is it?

Thanks

Kevin

 

[Matt_24]

I didn't mean a direct "copy". I just mean, it was heavily influenced by Gina. I love that cue! My only question that I've been throwing out there is why is it ok for some to do it - and this Viatorre guy gets trashed for doing it?

 

[kvinbrwr]

I didn't mean a direct "copy". I just mean, it was heavily influenced by Gina. I love that cue! My only question that I've been throwing out there is why is it ok for some to do it - and this Viatorre guy gets trashed for doing it?

Cue makers that make exact copies of living cue makers cues often do get trashed. The Viatorre cue was complete copy, so much so that the seller, referred to the cue by using Ginacue and not Viatorre in the title of his for sale thread. Searing doing his own take on a cue form (box cues) that Ernie invented is is no way analogous. Art is by its very nature derivative and a guy innovating and executing his own spin on an existing form is far different from a guy sitting down and executing a copy.

Kevin

 

[cfrandy]

I'm bad and now the OP is punishing us my taking away our opportunity to buy his cheap copy of a Gina complete with ring pop and epoxy filled inlays.

Sorry guys, I didn't know he'd take his ball and go home.

Good news is I'm sure you can all PM him and buy that complete POS for 3K.

Kevin

Just out of curiosity, when is it ok to trash someone's sale thread? I'm sure you'll love it when someone does it to yours!

 

[cfrandy]

I didn't mean a direct "copy". I just mean, it was heavily influenced by Gina. I love that cue! My only question that I've been throwing out there is why is it ok for some to do it - and this Viatorre guy gets trashed for doing it?

That is because the "elite" dealers in this forum are always trashing the little guy! They don't play by the rules!