WPA Rules For Transgenders

[mikepage]

There has been several different conversations going on inside this thread so I'm just going to add an article that some may find interesting about women in 3 cushion billiards. I know that there aren't very many women playing billiards world wide but wouldn't you think that the best female players in the world, who are dedicating their lives to this game, would score better than local 3 cushion short stops?

I'll continue to believe women are at a physical disadvantage when it comes to cue sports and they should be able to compete on an even playing field against other women. Furthermore, their accomplishments in the game should be celebrated in their own right without having to be measured against their male peers.

http://www.kozoom.com/en/billiard-carom/news/why-aren-t-the-women-catching-up.html

In the marathon, like mentioned in the article, as well as in other running distances and in swimming the gap has shrunk from huge to about 10% over the last several decades. And it seems to be converging on about 10%.

But there is not Title IX for billiards, and all cue sports are WAY behind running and swimming on this issue.

The bottom line is it is way too early to tell whether the gap will diminish to zero in cue sports or not. I think it more or less will. Regardless, I think FargoRate will play a significant role in accelerating the process of finding out.

Look at BCAPL entries in the main "mixed singles" divisions right now. There are 5 women entered that play at the level of the "top 100 females in USA list" range. This is a first. What's new is a recognition of how they compare to males--who are their peers. People can still enter that tournament today, so there may be more.

In any case, cue-sports overall are way underdeveloped. And womens cuesports are way underdeveloped compared to that. So all this remains to be seen.

 

[StuartTKelley]

To a true transgendered person the choice isn't how they identify, the choice is whether or not to be true to that identity.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, whatever that is. I never once told Watchez to change his opinion. Not once. It would be nice if he were more open minded, but that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

There was a discussion taking place about rules. The discussion was not about whether or not it is or should be acceptable to be a transgendered person nor was the discussion about one person in particular. Interjecting one's opinion solely for the sake of being mean and hurtful, and that certainly was the intention, had no relevance to the conversation. His opinion was only voiced to be mean to another person, a person who was only offering her solicited opinion on subjects pertinent to the discussion. This is a public space. One should act with the decency that one would normally act in a "real" public space.

I am not saying everyone has to be accepting, you just have to have some common decency. I am not accepting of all things, however, I do not voice my opinion every chance I get with complete disregard to other people's feelings. People just assume that because they are hiding behind a keyboard they don't have to care about other people's feelings. If your offended or hurt by what I say then you are the one with the problem. What the hell kind of way is that to live life.

I did want to let this one die, but I also wanted to revisit it when I had a cooler head. Rape, murder and pedophilia are all heinous crimes that mostly all people would agree should not be tolerated in the least. Being torn between the person you know that you are and the person everyone expects you to be is far from a crime, it is natural and it can be a hard road to travel just to be happy. Why should people make it any harder just because they don't understand it or won't accept it.

My opinion is simply that, an opinion. In today's society if your opinion isn't popular with a particular group then it's cruel and hurtful. I don't care what you choose to be, gay, straight, bi, change your gender by chopping something off or adding something on....I don't care but don't sit there and tell me my opinion isn't valid just because you're too sensitive and insecure to own what you are and who you think or believe you are as soon as you face adversity. That's the problem today, you can't just be happy with you and own it no matter what comes....NO..you must be happy with you and everyone else has to be happy with you or it's not good enough.

You're right, this is a public forum and in my opinion a public forum should use truth and not hide behind "safe zones" and "hurt free zones". Pathetic.

 

[BasementDweller]

Mike,
Another in along line of nice posts by you.

We finally have the ability to quantify the differences between the men and women thanks to FargoRate. I think it will prove out to be at least a 10 percent difference -- with a caveat.

The caveat is -- if the games that are being scored for FargoRate continue down this path where the importance of the break, kicking, safeties, and power shots are diminished and the importance of finesse is increased -- then the difference will be smaller. It's my opinion that when you combine the game of 9 ball with fast tables, racking templates, and alternate breaking what you are going to get is FargoRatings that are much higher for the women than if a different combination was used or even 10 Ball was played.

A good analogy would be if the professional men and women were playing 3 ball how different could their ratings really be?

I imagine you already have this data. It would be really interesting to see ratings based just on 10 Ball vs all games. Or even a comparison with 8 ball since that game has such a huge break factor.

I would love to be proven wrong on this but a lifetime of anecdotal evidence has been hard for me to ignore.

 

[erhino41]

My opinion is simply that, an opinion. In today's society if your opinion isn't popular with a particular group then it's cruel and hurtful. I don't care what you choose to be, gay, straight, bi, change your gender by chopping something off or adding something on....I don't care but don't sit there and tell me my opinion isn't valid just because you're too sensitive and insecure to own what you are and who you think or believe you are as soon as you face adversity. That's the problem today, you can't just be happy with you and own it no matter what comes....NO..you must be happy with you and everyone else has to be happy with you or it's not good enough.

You're right, this is a public forum and in my opinion a public forum should use truth and not hide behind "safe zones" and "hurt free zones". Pathetic.

You did not read a word that I wrote. I never said your opinion wasn't valid, not once. I also never said anybody had to accept something that they don't accept.. Asking for basic decency is pathetic? Expecting people to be basically kind to each other makes me an a-hole? I don't follow your logic. Basic kindness does not mean tacit acceptance it is only something each and every one of us deserves.

I also don't understand how you can argue that your opinion is valid while you are telling me why my opinion isn't valid. Make up your mind is everyone entitled to their own opinion or just you?

 

[mikepage]

Mike,
Another in along line of nice posts by you.

We finally have the ability to quantify the differences between the men and women thanks to FargoRate. I think it will prove out to be at least a 10 percent difference -- with a caveat.

The caveat is -- if the games that are being scored for FargoRate continue down this path where the importance of the break, kicking, safeties, and power shots are diminished and the importance of finesse is increased -- then the difference will be smaller. It's my opinion that when you combine the game of 9 ball with fast tables, racking templates, and alternate breaking what you are going to get is FargoRatings that are much higher for the women than if a different combination was used or even 10 Ball was played.

A good analogy would be if the professional men and women were playing 3 ball how different could their ratings really be?

I imagine you already have this data. It would be really interesting to see ratings based just on 10 Ball vs all games. Or even a comparison with 8 ball since that game has such a huge break factor.

I would love to be proven wrong on this but a lifetime of anecdotal evidence has been hard for me to ignore.

I think you way overestimate the role of the break. I am curious what Atlarge thinks about this.

 

[BasementDweller]

I think the 9 ball break with a template rack and the 1 on the spot is a great equalizer. I think it pretty much makes the break shot a neutral event for those that can cue the ball accurately. So for that game I don't think the break matters much at all. So I'm not overestimating the importance of that games break (or am I?) I don't think the players have yet caught up to the nine on the spot but I'm sure they will at some point. In 10 Ball and 8 ball I still think the break is a huge factor. I'm sure at some point you will have the numbers to prove me wrong (or right)

I don't have the numbers to back this up but it seems like I remember the women really being at a significant disadvantage during the IPT years because of the break. In 10 Ball I think there's a difference as well but it's not just the break but the racks often go from 8 balls post break to 10. This makes it more likely that the more skillful player will win more often. That's my 3 ball effect at work.

 

[Ak Guy]

Complicated?

I started playing pool about 60 years ago. Long before I thought about what sex had an advantage over another sex doing any thing and thought every one should have some privacy in the bath room.

Being raised in a small mid west faming community had advantages. Life was simple, every one knew each other and there were no big city problems.

Now we live in a different world where different groups of people get to claim we are all equal and should be treated as such. Some of those same groups say that's true, but we are an exception and need to have special consideration in one way or another. So maybe we are not all equal in all things?

There are also those who say it is ok to change your sex as often as you want, on Monday I am a woman, Tuesday I am a man, Wednesday I am some thing else, etc.

I can't keep up with all of it, yet some of those groups think me and the rest of the world should accept it, understand it, embrace it and accommodate them in any way they want.

I don't believe for a second these groups are tolerant of me and accept and respect my views.

I will continue to treat men as men, women as women and those who claim to be some thing else as something else. But, don't expect me to embrace or like the some thing else. I can't change the way God made me, but I won't hate you if you think you can.

What a screwed up mess. I am very happy living in a small Alaskan town and not being one of the enlightened ones. Life is good around these parts.

 

[StuartTKelley]

You did not read a word that I wrote. I never said your opinion wasn't valid, not once. I also never said anybody had to accept something that they don't accept.. Asking for basic decency is pathetic? Expecting people to be basically kind to each other makes me an a-hole? I don't follow your logic. Basic kindness does not mean tacit acceptance it is only something each and every one of us deserves.

I also don't understand how you can argue that your opinion is valid while you are telling me why my opinion isn't valid. Make up your mind is everyone entitled to their own opinion or just you?

Your opinion is absolutely valid. I believe what you're calling decency is actually you saying I have to be nice no matter what I think or believe and sugar coat everything so we can all get along while the truth boils just beneath the surface. I am not hiding and I am not trying to be cruel to any group, race, etc. All I have stated in a non-sugar coated way is that just because you choose a way of life doesn't mean everyone has to be nice about it and you don't deserve "new" rights no matter what you identify as.

I'm a man but I identify as a woman...still a man...yeah but...still a man...yeah but..still a man. I'm a woman but I identify as a man...still a woman..yeah but..still a woman...That's harsh truth? I think not...it's a fact.

So I have a transgender player on my 8ball team...I like her/him. However, do I think he should use the women's restroom? No. Do I think he should come into the league and start as a 3 because he identifies as a woman? No. Is that fair to those of us who just be who we actually are? Can I go to the ladies room as man? NO..but if I say I identify as a woman then it's okay? Come on! That's nuts (no pun intended)

 

[BmoreMoney]

You did not read a word that I wrote. I never said your opinion wasn't valid, not once. I also never said anybody had to accept something that they don't accept.. Asking for basic decency is pathetic? Expecting people to be basically kind to each other makes me an a-hole? I don't follow your logic. Basic kindness does not mean tacit acceptance it is only something each and every one of us deserves.

I also don't understand how you can argue that your opinion is valid while you are telling me why my opinion isn't valid. Make up your mind is everyone entitled to their own opinion or just you?

Ok, I'm - you got me now. I will not make this " political " and try to make this as least offensive as possible. ( I'll try but I have no control over what some find inappropriate . Your posts in this thread; imho, is the mentality and exemplifies what is wrong with our world today. Let me explain : one can have differing ideals AND be decent at the same time. For whatever reason some do not believe this is true. I will give you an example straight from my world - I have some VERY close friends ( females ) that are BI. We hang out, we talk just like close friends that we are, I've never hesitated even for a one second taking them ANYWHERE. They treat me and I treat them EXACTLY as I would any of my other " straight " friends. BUT, would I chose that lifestyle for myself? NO, NO I WOULD NOT. Would I be OK if my mother, sister, kid chose that lifestyle? NO, NO IT WOULD NOT. They are VERY aware of my thoughts just as I have posted them. Are they ever upset, offended, care about MY personal viewpoints? NO, NO THEY ARE NOT. Why? Because just like you; AND EVERYONE ELSE, I am absolutely allowed my belief or opinion on ANYTHING AT ANYTIME.

Now don't laugh but the same principle I am putting forth here applies to strippers as well. Pretty much everyone loves strippers. I do; and have, had many strippers as friends. I've dated strippers. I've helped strippers get jobs. Anytime I go out to clubs or whatever we have a GREAT TIME! BUT, would I want my mom, sister, duaghter, ( or even a girlfriend - but admittedly this last one is kinda tricky lol ) to be a stripper? ONCE AGAIN HELL NO!. That does not preclude me from being decent to them though. Can you at least, even if at a micro level understand what I'm getting at? Folks can have standards, beliefs , ideas, whatever you would be most comfortable calling it that are one way AND at the same time be decent to those in which they do not agree with their lifestyle choice. It CAN BE DONE, trust me.

At the EXACT SAME TIME, those who make choices that you may not necessarily agree with can be good, decent people YOU CAN BE TOO! Lastly, someone who voices their opinion; and totally irregardless of what that opinion may be, have THE RIGHT to express that opinion without the fear of being judged by anyone - especially folks like yourself. Sometimes it amazes me that those that preach everyone should be accepting are often those that ARE THE LEAST ACCEPTING!!!

 

[erhino41]

Your opinion is absolutely valid. I believe what you're calling decency is actually you saying I have to be nice no matter what I think or believe and sugar coat everything so we can all get along while the truth boils just beneath the surface. I am not hiding and I am not trying to be cruel to any group, race, etc. All I have stated in a non-sugar coated way is that just because you choose a way of life doesn't mean everyone has to be nice about it and you don't deserve "new" rights no matter what you identify as.

I'm a man but I identify as a woman...still a man...yeah but...still a man...yeah but..still a man. I'm a woman but I identify as a man...still a woman..yeah but..still a woman...That's harsh truth? I think not...it's a fact.

So I have a transgender player on my 8ball team...I like her/him. However, do I think he should use the women's restroom? No. Do I think he should come into the league and start as a 3 because he identifies as a woman? No. Is that fair to those of us who just be who we actually are? Can I go to the ladies room as man? NO..but if I say I identify as a woman then it's okay? Come on! That's nuts (no pun intended)

I did not argue for or against any of those points. I may have started how I felt about those things, but I never told anybody they had to feel how I feel. That is not the discussion we were having. I was taught that it you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all. Now I understand that is not all encompassing, as there are certainly places where the truth must be said even if it is inconvenient or hurtful. This discussion was not the place where something hurtful had to be said. It serves no purpose and was only done to be mean. I know you did not say this thing, but I understand your stance that this person had the right to say it, and they did. What was the point, though? What at all is gained by being mean for no other reason than to be mean? Basic decency does not mean you have to pretend to be nice it just means that you don't have to be mean. It doesn't mean that you have to accept anything it just means that you should let others be. Ignorance isn't always a bad thing, sometimes it can be bliss.

 

[BmoreMoney]

I did not argue for or against any of those points. I may have started how I felt about those things, but I never told anybody they had to feel how I feel. That is not the discussion we were having. I was taught that it you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all. Now I understand that is not all encompassing, as there are certainly places where the truth must be said even if it is inconvenient or hurtful. This discussion was not the place where something hurtful had to be said. It serves no purpose and was only done to be mean. I know you did not say this thing, but I understand your stance that this person had the right to say it, and they did. What was the point, though? What at all is gained by being mean for no other reason than to be mean? Basic decency does not mean you have to pretend to be nice it just means that you don't have to be mean. It doesn't mean that you have to accept anything it just means that you should let others be. Ignorance isn't always a bad thing, sometimes it can be bliss.

It is QUITE OBVIOUS TO ME that you found the repost from Watchez to be mean. I found it kinda funny. " Mean " is very subjective. Just because some ( you ) find something said to be mean then does that mean ( pun intended ) that one should be forced not to say something? I say NO, HE'LL NO ACTUALLY! !! And for the record, all he did was repost the words that ray wrote and put up anyway! So answer me this if you would be so kind , why is it OK with you that someone writes and puts something in their OWN sign line for all to see but it is NOT OK for anyone to repost it? You honestly have completely lost me in this logic.

 

[KissedOut]

You did not read a word that I wrote. I never said your opinion wasn't valid, not once. I also never said anybody had to accept something that they don't accept.. Asking for basic decency is pathetic? Expecting people to be basically kind to each other makes me an a-hole? I don't follow your logic. Basic kindness does not mean tacit acceptance it is only something each and every one of us deserves.

I also don't understand how you can argue that your opinion is valid while you are telling me why my opinion isn't valid. Make up your mind is everyone entitled to their own opinion or just you?

You didn't say his opinion was jnvalid, you said it is indecent, which is worse. Intolerance in defense of "tolerance" is still Intolerance.

You should apply your final sentence to yourself.