WPBA Great Lakes Classic

Melissa Morris

:( Tough Draw Against Allison Ist Match . Good Job Getting 6 Games, Though. Good Showing!! Wishing You Continued Good Luck!
Say Hello To 'burger'. -bill
 
Hi Folks :)

New poster here. I've been watching the gals on ESPN the past few years and I've become a big fan. I accidently stumbled upon this message board and I'm excited there's a forum to share thoughts with.

As for the tourney, congratulations to the Duchess for winning yet another title and to Tiffany for a fantastic run. Last but not least, kudos to my beloved Vivian on a great showing. She's been struggling a bit this year so I was thrilled to see her back in the top three again.

Anyone know the score in her semifinal match with Tiffany and will her matches with Kelly and Tiffany be televised? I don't get an opportunity to see my favorite play that often so I'm hoping it will be.

Thanks!
Ed (GoVivian)
 
GoVivian said:
Hi Folks :)

New poster here. I've been watching the gals on ESPN the past few years and I've become a big fan. I accidently stumbled upon this message board and I'm excited there's a forum to share thoughts with.

As for the tourney, congratulations to the Duchess for winning yet another title and to Tiffany for a fantastic run. Last but not least, kudos to my beloved Vivian on a great showing. She's been struggling a bit this year so I was thrilled to see her back in the top three again.

Anyone know the score in her semifinal match with Tiffany and will her matches with Kelly and Tiffany be televised? I don't get an opportunity to see my favorite play that often so I'm hoping it will be.

Thanks!
Ed (GoVivian)
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Welcome to the forum, Ed, and congratulations to your favorite player for a great tourney in Michigan City.

I don't know the score of the semifinal betwen Vivian and Tiffany Nelson, but both Vivian vs Kelly Fisher and Vivian vs Tiffany Nelson will be shown on television. FYI, the general rule is that all matches played on Sunday at a WPBA event are televised.
 
Vivian is a dynamic player with lots of energy. She has been one of my favorites for her game and her "go for it" style. Unfortunately, Kelly Fisher had to learn another pool lesson on the TV tables about sharking. Vivian is the queen of using her quirks to get her opponents out the game. It worked this time but I predict that if they match up again that Kelly will not be affected no matter what Vivian does.

Like I said before - any player on the tour - including Vivian, Allison and Karen can get a ten ahead set for 10gs against Kelly. Lil John, you wanna take the other side of this?

John
 
Thanks OnePocket...

By quirks do you mean talking while she's playing? I always thought Vivian did this to burn off nervous energy. Regardless, I love Vivan's fiery personality and her quick aggressive game. She's definitely a crowd pleaser and I love watching her play so much! :)

I must say Vivian also endeared me because of the heartache she's suffered due to the abduction of her daughter several years ago. How devastating that must have been for her. :( She seems to have channeled her grief though by doing charity events and supporting organizations for lost children and I admire her for that. :)
 
onepocketchump said:
Like I said before - any player on the tour - including Vivian, Allison and Karen can get a ten ahead set for 10gs against Kelly.
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I happen to think Allison Fisher would wipe the floor with her. The best women's nine ball player ever is in dead stroke right now. Would you really want to back another woman against her?

Turn up the heat and Allison Fisher plays her best. Two years in a row, she ran a rack for $25,000 at Mohegan sun in the Challenge of Champions. To this point, the heat has only been turned up on Kelly Fisher three times, and that would be in her three WPBA TV matches, where she's winless.

One is battle tested and shines when the heat is highest and the lights are brightest. The other has yet to show either the game or the competitive pedigree to beat the best under conditions of maximum pressure.

This one's a no-brainer. Allison Fisher by a landslide in a ten ahead race, and the more they bet, the less time Allison would need to win.

To me, it seems you're dissing Allison here. I said it before and I'll say it again --- Kelly Fisher is a great player with an extremely bright future, but until she starts winning on WPBA Sundays, she cannot logically be counted as one of the truly elite. Last weekend, she drew the #9 ranked player in a TV match. One doesn't often get an easier assignment than that on a WPBA Sunday. Kelly Fisher's day will come, but it isn't here yet.
 
SJM,

Maybe you don't get it. I said that I think, that is my opinion, that Kelly is the best female player I have ever seen. I have made a distinction between tournaments and lengthy contests such as a ten ahead set. IF you think that Allison has the nuts then put up your $10,000 and I will put up mine and we will call it "The Royal Battle" or whatever and see how it comes out.

I will put my money where my mouth is - will you? Until then your arguments are academic. I think Kelly is a better player than Allison and Karen. This takes nothing away from how great they are it only illustrates how great I think Kelly is. Vivian is NEVER an "easy" draw and just shows how little you apparently know about pool. Vivian is even harder to beat when she has the "show" going. Kelly let the show get to her or she probably would have won that set. Kelly's day will definitely come as she is getting stronger every single day.

As for the competitive pedigree, you again show your ignorance. Perhaps in your naivette you meant to say her "nine-ball pedigree"? Her snooker resume' completely outclasses Allison and she holds a world record of winning 57 professional snooker matches in a row. She routinely beat Karen in snooker when both were competing at the same time - as a teenager. As for Kelly's nine-ball pedigree; she won the Cat Tour the first time out, although the WPBA should have extended her an invitation as the reigning World Snooker Champion. She won the WPBA Amateur Nationals. Allison has never had to play in one qualifier anywhere. Allison was accepted into the WPBA without any requirement to qualify.

Allison came into the WPBA when the competition was much weaker than it is today. Because of Allison and Karen and the foreign players in general I believe that the overall quality of play is much higher now than five or ten years ago. So Kelly now has a tougher field to beat every week. And she played her very first game of nine ball less than one year ago. Think about that.

So, I'll offer it to you again, $10,000 in a 10 ahead set. No race to seven, no race to nine. The first player who gets ten games ahead takes the cash.

John
 
GoVivian said:
Thanks OnePocket...

By quirks do you mean talking while she's playing? I always thought Vivian did this to burn off nervous energy. Regardless, I love Vivan's fiery personality and her quick aggressive game. She's definitely a crowd pleaser and I love watching her play so much! :)

I must say Vivian also endeared me because of the heartache she's suffered due to the abduction of her daughter several years ago. How devastating that must have been for her. :( She seems to have channeled her grief though by doing charity events and supporting organizations for lost children and I admire her for that. :)
Click to expand...

I mean the "show" she puts on. Talking to herself, talking to the crowd, agonizing over shots, both simple and difficult, admonishing herself, praising herself, twirling around every time she wins a rack and generally doing a lot of extraneous stuff that is bothersome to the opponent. If you don't think it takes a lot to fade that kind of stuff then I have to say you have probably never played anyone like that for anything signifigant.

I have and it is easy to get caught up in what they are saying and doing rather than focusing on the game at hand. When at the table it becomes difficult to let go of whatever the opponent has been saying or doing and you just want to run out and shove the nine ball down their throat to shut them up.

Vivian is definitely a "play to the crowd" player - a showboat. She probably makes for good TV, which is probably why she doesn't get sanctioned by the WPBA. I am not alone in thinking that she would win a lot more if she toned it down and played a simpler game. She has so much firepower that she often way overshoots the target and has to come with fantastic shots to get of traps she put herself in. The Vivian I want to see is the one that finally shows the world class game she has and less of the showboat. I am always rooting for her to win when she plays anyone but the players we sponsor.

She is lucky to have fans like you. Best of success for you both.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
SJM,

Maybe you don't get it. I said that I think, that is my opinion, that Kelly is the best female player I have ever seen. I have made a distinction between tournaments and lengthy contests such as a ten ahead set. IF you think that Allison has the nuts then put up your $10,000 and I will put up mine and we will call it "The Royal Battle" or whatever and see how it comes out.

I will put my money where my mouth is - will you? Until then your arguments are academic. I think Kelly is a better player than Allison and Karen.
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Well, every now and again, I do run into this line of thinking on the forum, but I'm pleased to say it's really quite rare. Nobody's allowed to have an opinion about the respective merits of players unless they're willing to bet on it. I guess that as I don't wish to bet, you best discard my opinions as academic. My mistake for even having an opinion.

From my vantage point, your willingness to put your money where your mouth is in no way strengthens your opinion. Though you find my opinions academic, I respect you and your opinions on merit.

In my posts, I have simply contended that in women's professional nine-ball competition to date, Kelly Fisher hasn't shown the kind of game you seem to think she has, and, to this point, she hasn't shown that she can play her best when the stakes go up in WPBA play and when the competition toughens. I have given examples and have cited her track record in WPBA play in proposing my opinions.

You, on the other hand, simply make a contention and say little to support it. All you say is that you've played her and that you just plain know. If you've got something to share to give me greater insight into why you feel Kelly would not be beaten, please share.

Even if you don't have any use for my opinion, I have use for yours, as I respect you and your knowledge of the game, and hope you'll choose to share more of your opinion on this subject.
 
I didn't say I have no use for your opinions. Nor did I say Kelly would win any matchup she enters - I merely said I would bet on her. You, on the other hand make a prediction that Allison would "wipe the floor" with Kelly and that the "higher the stakes the faster Allison would win".

These kind of statements are absurd if you really knew Kelly's game. I predict that Allison would not care to take that bet. I think Karen would not want to take that bet. Why? Because it's a triple tough game for them. It would be a tough game for Kelly as well as she knows.

We all know Kelly's showings in the last five tournaments. So what? She is ranked 13 and doesn't even have tourning pro status yet. We all know that Kelly has lost three times in short set formats on TV. Again, so what? Please name any other player who has reached the TV rounds in three of the first five tournaments they have played in? I bet they are from Great Britain if you can name any.

I also never said that my opinion comes from playing her. I don't play her. I back her. My opinion comes from my 24 years as a player and my 14 year association with a lot of the world's best players.

Kelly has certainly shown the game I think she has. Not only that - she has shown a precursor of the game that she will have. Like I said, she is getting stronger every tournament. She is learning every day.

No, being willing to bet on my opinion does not make that opinion any more of less correct. What is does do is show my conviction. Are you really convinced that Allison would "wipe the floor" with Kelly? Do you really think that Kelly would fold or Allison would get that much stronger for more money? I don't. I think that Kelly gets stronger when the sets get longer. I think that when she gets a chance to find the rhythm and gets used to the table then it really becomes a contest of who is the better player and not who is having better rolls in a short set.

Of course Allison and Karen are more comfortable in the Sunday Short Set Spectacle that the WPBA presents as it's showcase of their talent. I have little respect for any organization that has to "educate" the audience on how to "behave" for the TV matches. I have little respect for an organization that allows ESPN to dictate the match length, to shorten it for TV - especially when they are going to cut it anyway. I have little repsect for an organization that puts the players under drastically different conditions on the final day. With this in mind is it any wonder that Allison and Karen are more able to perform well under a format that they have undoubtably become very comfortable with?

Can you imagine ESPN dictating to the WTA how to run their tennis tournaments? How about pro golf only playing nine holes on the final day because ESPN doesn't want it. How about ABC telling Tiger to hold off on his tee shot because they aren't ready.

This is what happens at WPBA events. The players are told when they can break and when they can't. They have a cameraman in their face. It's bullshit and demeaning in my opinion. Compared to the respect that snooker players received in their televised events it is a travesty and hard to get used to. As much of a travesty as I find it for you to say that Allison shines best when the lights are brightest in an attempt to discredit Kelly's accomplishments so far.

Ok, we can put this to bed if you want to. The game will never come to pass anyway. I don't think that Kelly can overtake Allison this year. I predict however that Kelly will finish the year better than sixth and that she will win at least one tournament this year. Care to bet dinner on that one?

John
 
onepocketchump said:
We all know Kelly's showings in the last five tournaments. So what? She is ranked 13 and doesn't even have tourning pro status yet. We all know that Kelly has lost three times in short set formats on TV. Again, so what? Please name any other player who has reached the TV rounds in three of the first five tournaments they have played in? I bet they are from Great Britain if you can name any.
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Allison Fisher won her second WPBA event and her seventh WPBA event.
Kelly's seventh WPBA event will be WPBA San Diego later this month.
Allison Fisher won nine of her first 20 events on the WPBA tour. That's a pretty high standard.

onepocketchump said:
Of course Allison and Karen are more comfortable in the Sunday Short Set Spectacle that the WPBA presents as it's showcase of their talent.
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Our exchange has been about Allison, not Karen. The fact that Allison always gets stronger as WPBA events go along is significant. If you watch asmuch WPBA pool as you say you do, you already know this --- the track record shows that the race to seven format hasn't randomized anything.

onepocketchump said:
I don't think that Kelly can overtake Allison this year. I predict however that Kelly will finish the year better than sixth and that she will win at least one tournament this year. Care to bet dinner on that one?
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Allison finished her first full year on the tour ranked #1. As for dinner, if I ever have the privilege of meeting you, I'll buy you dinner whether or not Kelly accomplishes these goals. I'm sure that as two knowledgeable enthusiasts of the game we'd enjoy each other's company.

I wish Kelly good luck in pursuit of these goals. When she starts winning titles, then we're really going to enjoy the comparison of the two Fishers. Titles won, after all, is, ultmately, the only true measure of a player's career as a pro pool player.

Take care.
 
Gremlin said:
Hello,

I don't like the way Kelly Fisher has been treated since she made the Classic Tour. My biggest problem is the demeaning TV matches and photos that are taken. Here is an example of a demeaning photo. The 7-0 match against Gerda. The photo sucks! :eek:

"Gremlin"
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Wouldn't worry. Kelly is an emerging world beater. You'll soon learn that in women's pool with alternate break, seven racks is usually enough to ensure that the deserving player prevails.

I agree with you, though, that her photographers aren't doing her justice.
 
sjm said:
Wouldn't worry. Kelly is an emerging world beater. You'll soon learn that in women's pool with alternate break, seven racks is usually enough to ensure that the deserving player prevails.

I agree with you, though, that her photographers aren't doing her justice.
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I disagree with you here SJM. Seven racks of alternate breaks is a travesty for professional pool players to decide a championship match. I was at the North Carolina event and the amount of trouble that was had with the racks was horrible. The men play races to 11, 13 and even 17 in the world championships. All a race to seven does is demonstrate who was luckier on that day. Is there one logical reason why the sets are shortened to seven on the final day?

Please don't tell me it's time constraints. We never get to see the whole match anyway. With a race to nine ESPN would get more chances to have good games to show.

Almost no highstakes gambler would bet $3,000 on an alternate breaks race to seven.

John
 
sjm said:
Allison Fisher won her second WPBA event and her seventh WPBA event.
Kelly's seventh WPBA event will be WPBA San Diego later this month.
Allison Fisher won nine of her first 20 events on the WPBA tour. That's a pretty high standard.



Our exchange has been about Allison, not Karen. The fact that Allison always gets stronger as WPBA events go along is significant. If you watch asmuch WPBA pool as you say you do, you already know this --- the track record shows that the race to seven format hasn't randomized anything.



Allison finished her first full year on the tour ranked #1. As for dinner, if I ever have the privilege of meeting you, I'll buy you dinner whether or not Kelly accomplishes these goals. I'm sure that as two knowledgeable enthusiasts of the game we'd enjoy each other's company.

I wish Kelly good luck in pursuit of these goals. When she starts winning titles, then we're really going to enjoy the comparison of the two Fishers. Titles won, after all, is, ultmately, the only true measure of a player's career as a pro pool player.

Take care.
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As I said before, Allison started when the field was much weaker. She did not have the pressure of having to fly around the country and play qualifiers as Kelly did. Allison was invited to participate in the WPBA and treated with the respect she deserved as a Snooker World Champion. Kelly has been given no such recognition or courtesy and so the pressure to perform has been that much greater. And again, check the pedigree of your example.

You are obviously a die-hard Allison fan. This discussion is not about how good a player Allison is. We all know how good she is. I offered to bet 10dimes on Allison against any male in the country on a 6x12 snooker table.

But you cannot compare matches won from different eras. The standard of play in the WPBA is undoubtably stronger now than five years ago. If you want to make comparisons like that then look at Kelly's snooker record vs. Allison's. Kelly has the better record. She holds world records. She shattered Allison's records. She may or may not do the same in nine-ball. If she does it will be against a tougher field without the benefit of privilege accorded to Allison when Allison started.

I accept your invitation to dinner. It will be fun. Were you at the NC event?

John
 
One last thing. Please correct me if I am wrong. Up until last year the top 16 were seeded two rounds into the tournament. This guaranteed them a top half finish and the points that went with it. Under this format it would have been very difficult for anyone else to break into the upper rankings. This makes it easier for top players to finish high and win the events.

Now, as I understand it, all players start from round one with the top sixteen being seeded to prevent top sixteen matchups in the first round.

Is this correct?

John
 
Just look at the brackets for that answer. Allison is in the top group (of 8) and Karen is in the bottom half. This assures them that they will not face each other until round 6.

Seeding rewards the better players and ensures that the better players will make it to the TV rounds. Which helps the TV ratings. Which, in the log run, is good for TV and the WPBA.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
Just look at the brackets for that answer. Allison is in the top group (of 8) and Karen is in the bottom half. This assures them that they will not face each other until round 6.

Seeding rewards the better players and ensures that the better players will make it to the TV rounds. Which helps the TV ratings. Which, in the log run, is good for TV and the WPBA.

Jake
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Which is fine. I just think that under this format - and especially when they used to get byes two rounds in, that it is much harder for an incoming player to break through. I guess Kelly will be seeded now that she is in the top sixteen or is the top eight that are seeded?

John
 
onepocketchump said:
I guess Kelly will be seeded now that she is in the top sixteen or is the top eight that are seeded?

John
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John the top 16 are seeded, but she needs to be a touring pro first to benifit from the seed. As long as she is still in the top 16 when she gets all of her pro points she will be seeded.
 
onepocketchump said:
I disagree with you here SJM. Seven racks of alternate breaks is a travesty for professional pool players to decide a championship match. I was at the North Carolina event and the amount of trouble that was had with the racks was horrible. The men play races to 11, 13 and even 17 in the world championships. All a race to seven does is demonstrate who was luckier on that day. Is there one logical reason why the sets are shortened to seven on the final day?
Click to expand...

Know where you're coming from, but what I'm saying is that, based on my observations of WPBA play in the more than 40 WPBA events (in about fifteen different cities) I've attended over the years, the best players have been no more prone to upsets in races to seven than in races to nine. I'll agree that, intuitively, it should be otherwise, but it hasn't been. The argument that the short TV races has randomized tournament results, though seemingly sound, doesn't hold up when the tournament history is reviewed.

Finally, I wasn't in NC, but will be at the BCA Open and WPBA Peoria, two of the next three stops on the WPBA tour. I'm pleased that you've accepted my dinner invitation. Hope we can get to it soon.
 
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