WPBA Rankings don't look right

[JB Cases]

I agree Jennie. The world has not seen Kelly's best game yet. In Kelly's very first WPBA tournament she had Allison down 8:1 and lost. That is a testament to Kelly's strength at the table. It's also a testament to Allison's caliber.

The fact is though that Kelly rarely gets BEAT. Mostly she beats herself with mistakes that she normally wouldn't make.

I am a Kelly Fisher fan Steve. Mostly because I have the privilege to have gotten to know her and see her game up close. The best thing for women's pool is for Kelly to continue to play only in women's tournaments. If she stated to mix it up with the men and got somse seasoning against tougher competition then the women would hate life as Kelly would become unbeatable.

Yes, on the WPBA tour she is definitely well behind Allison and Karen as far as her record goes compared to theirs. On another note though Kelly started playing on the WPBA at a time when the competition is much tougher than ever before. The other women have been toughened up considerably from the tag team of Allison Fisher and Karen Corr.

So moving forward, with the new rankings system and single elimination final 16 brackets, it's definitely tougher to attain the number one position and defintely tougher to hold it.

So let's see if from this point on who ends up dominating, if anyone. I guarantee you that if Allison is truly head and shoulders above the field then she will bounce back and regain number 1 in no time. However, if the rest of the field has finally reached a point where they are able to play world class alongside Allie then it will be tougher for her to get back there.

The test for Kelly going forward will be how long she can hold the number one spot now that she has it.

 

[Johnnyt]

Anyone of the top 8-10 can win on any given Sunday now. I don't think you will see anyone winning tour stops more than 25% of the time. The champions just keep coming over here. Seems like there is a new one every month somewhere on one of the qualfiers. Johnnyt

 

[Pjadedd]

There's a ranking summary on the WPBA page that details everyone's points.

http://www.wpba.com/pdfs/WPBARankingSummary080408.pdf


PJ

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Looks like they are using the short-system that resets every season. Nothing really unusual.

To me a much much better guage of who are in the upswing and downswing.

Longer-system seems to mask this trend specially the new comer's real speed.

 

[facets58]

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[Melissa Herndon]

Here is a look at the 16 players who have placed the highest over the last 16 events (2 years). Classic Tour events, BCA, US Open & Nationals are included.

mike--


Last 16 Events __________ 1st _______ 2nd ______ 3-4 ______ 5-8 ______ 9-16

Allison Fisher ____________ 7 _______ 10 _______ 11 _______ 15 _______ 15
Karen Corr _____________ 4 ________ 4 ________ 7 ________ 13 ________ 15
Pan Xiaoting ____________ 2 ________ 3 ________ 6 ________ 11 ________ 15
Kelly Fisher _____________ 2 ________ 6 ________ 8 ________ 12 ________ 15
Ga Young Kim ____________ 1 ________ 4 ________ 10 ________ 11 ________ 15
Monica Webb ____________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 3 ________ 10 ________ 15
Sarah Ellerby ____________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 ________ 5 ________ 13
Gerda Hofstatter __________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 1 ________ 8 ________ 12
Vivian Villarreal ___________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 ________ 4 ________ 12
Helena Thornfeldt _________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 1 ________ 5 ________ 11
Jeanette Lee ____________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 3 ________ 5 ________ 10
Melissa Herndon _________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 1 ________ 8
Kim Shaw _______________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 2 ________ 2 ________ 7
Tiffany Nelson ____________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 2 ________ 6
Anna Kostanian __________ 0 ________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 4 ________ 6
Jasmin Ouschan __________ 0 ________ 1 ________ 3 ________ 3 ________ 6

But look at men's tennis. Roger Federer has dominated over the past 5-6 years....and he just lost his #1 ranking because he hasn't been performing well this year.

Now before you start arguing that Allison has won 2 events this year....it is something that everyone is well aware of. But she also went 2-and-out last tournament....something that none of the girls ranked above her have done this year.

No one is disputing that Allison has been the dominant force on tour for years....and that she has all the titles, has held the #1 ranking for years, and that she is the most accomplished female player alive.

But these rankings reflect this year alone, and at the beginning of 2009, we will reset them again. This is something discussed among the WPBA membership and voted on by the WPBA membership at the beginning of 2007.

And Mike, if you remember....there was a year that I won your regional tour...but I only won 1 stop out of 4. Ikumi had won two stops....but OVERALL, I performed stronger....taking all top 3 finishes plus a first, while she took two 1st places, but ended up 17th-24th in one event. And so I edged her out of the number spot. And that was on your regional tour. It's the same kind of situation.

Melissa

 

[av84fun]

i think all the wpba events should be equal value. afterall its the same country and field of players each event.

definitely doesnt help Allison

I agree with that Spade. Unless an event is a "champion-only" invitational of some sort where there are NO "walk over" matches in the early rounds, then the mere name of the tournament should not result in a larger number of points being awarded.

Regads,
Jim

 

[facets58]

Melissa, without a real ranking list in place, I feel the Points Race can only do much more harm than good. It does not reflect accurately what is happening on tour, it's only a snap shot.

If a ranking list is in place I love the idea of a Points Race. With out a ranking list this puts the WPBA behind a brick wall. There are too many problems that cannot be addressed.

 

[av84fun]

I know you're a big Kelly fan, but don't be silly. Allison is clearly the best with Karen just barely behind her.

With all due respect, Karen's RECORD should end all debate on the subject of her accomplishments vs. Allison's and the record shows that she is a distant second and not "just barely behind her."

I would assume (but don't have the data) that the record of matches between Alli and Karen would be closer than their overall records but that is not the correct measure.

Being "the greatest" requires the ability to slug it out for entire tournaments, year after year so the match record between any two players should not be the standard of measure.

No disrespect to Karen intended AT ALL. She is clearly one of the best of all time but Allison simply is truly in a league of her own.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Melissa, without a real ranking list in place, I feel the Points Race can only do much more harm than good. It does not reflect accurately what is happening on tour, it's only a snap shot.

If a ranking list is in place I love the idea of a Points Race. With out a ranking list this puts the WPBA behind a brick wall. There are too many problems that cannot be addressed.

You couild be right. And personally it bugs the hell out of me that the final 16 re-shuffle and the points system is unfair to Allison.

But it is clear that the WPBA has decided that making it less likely for Alli and Karen to obtain a disproportionate number of 1st and 2nd place finishes...and therefore, getting "new faces" on TV...will be good for their tour down the road.

I have no insights into WPBA decision-making but if the above is not their intent, it is turning out that way.

Whether such a strategy will prove good or bad for the tour in the future remains to be seen. Again, I don't like the fact that the new tactics are unfair to Alli but if the "new faces" stragegy turns out to be good for the tour, it will be good for her too.

FOR SURE the new re-shullfe rules virtually guarantee that Alli's record will not be beaten for many, many years...if ever...because lots of the new faces will get knocked out with one loss too!

Regards,
Jim

 

[facets58]

And Mike, if you remember....there was a year that I won your regional tour...but I only won 1 stop out of 4. Ikumi had won two stops....but OVERALL, I performed stronger....taking all top 3 finishes plus a first, while she took two 1st places, but ended up 17th-24th in one event. And so I edged her out of the number spot. And that was on your regional tour. It's the same kind of situation.

Melissa

This is not the same kind of situation, AT ALL!!!

Allison could win 5 of the 7 events this year and still not be ranked #1

There is a problem with the amount of points being used for the ranking list, and the lack of a true ranking list.

When the WPBA is compared to Golf & Tennis, there is not enough spacing between 1 and 2. Golf gives 100 pts for 1st at majors and 60 pts for 2nd ,40 pts for 3rd & 27 pts for 4th.

The WPBA using the same 100 pts for 1st would be giving 85 pts for 2nd, 75 pts for 3-4, 65 pts for 5-8, 55 pts for 9-16, 40 pts for 17-24 & 30 pts for 25-32.

One big problem is that the WPBA is giving the equivalent of 4th place points for a 25-32 finish.


I discussed this with the board members last year, and I showed that the proposed structure was VERY PROBLEMATIC. I think the players and the fans would now agree.

If the WPBA was working with a LARGE sponsor to create the Points Race (and getting lots of $$$, like FedEx did with Golf) that would be a different story. The ranking list (like Golf) should still be in place. Without it, it is like pushing a car down hill with noone driving. Any sponsor worth talking to will see that that is a big problem.

If you put the ranking list back in place and adjust the points for the new tournaments coming up the problem can still be fixed. The more events that take place with out these fixes will only complicate the problems (IMO).

I also feel that the WPBA should weight the tournaments either on a 16 (2 full years) or 20 tournament structure. Golf goes off of a 40 tournament for 2 years (weighted).

Let me make it clear (this is only my opinion)... I LOVE a points race with a ranking list in place. I HATE HATE HATE a points race without a ranking list. The points race offers a quick look at who is hot for the moment, but it is more important to have an overall ranking to show who your best player is. If Gerda won the 1st event of the year Allison would have lost her #1 ranking even though she had won 3 of the last 4 events (including Nationals and the US Open--she took 2nd in the event she didn't win).

mike-

 

[Wyoming Will]

But look at men's tennis. Roger Federer has dominated over the past 5-6 years....and he just lost his #1 ranking because he hasn't been performing well this year.

Now before you start arguing that Allison has won 2 events this year....it is something that everyone is well aware of. But she also went 2-and-out last tournament....something that none of the girls ranked above her have done this year.

No one is disputing that Allison has been the dominant force on tour for years....and that she has all the titles, has held the #1 ranking for years, and that she is the most accomplished female player alive.

But these rankings reflect this year alone, and at the beginning of 2009, we will reset them again. This is something discussed among the WPBA membership and voted on by the WPBA membership at the beginning of 2007.

And Mike, if you remember....there was a year that I won your regional tour...but I only won 1 stop out of 4. Ikumi had won two stops....but OVERALL, I performed stronger....taking all top 3 finishes plus a first, while she took two 1st places, but ended up 17th-24th in one event. And so I edged her out of the number spot. And that was on your regional tour. It's the same kind of situation.

Melissa

Hey Melissa,

I would first like to say it's nice to see you on azbilliards. Please answer this one question for me. I have no problem that the rating system is only based on this year's statistics however, how is it possible that Allison Fisher has won two of the four events this year and be ranked 6th? The point system should reflect a player's performance. It should be similar to the prize distribution.

 

[facets58]

how is it possible that Allison Fisher has won two of the four events this year and be ranked 6th? The point system should reflect a player's performance. It should be similar to the prize distribution.

Wyoming Will, that is a good point. I have worked around with a few ideas for points, a good payout will also work to give you fair points list.

Money = points = a pretty good idea.

mike-

 

[Wyoming Will]

Wyoming Will, that is a good point. I have worked around with a few ideas for points, a good payout will also work to give you fair points list.

Money = points = a pretty good idea.

mike-

Money X 1,000 = points (to make it sound really dramatic)

"If Kelly Fisher makes this 9-ball, she will be awarded FOURTEEN MILLION POINTS in the standings!"

 

[facets58]

OK, back away from the moonshine...lol

 

[sjm]

But look at men's tennis. Roger Federer has dominated over the past 5-6 years....and he just lost his #1 ranking because he hasn't been performing well this year.

No one is disputing that Allison has been the dominant force on tour for years....and that she has all the titles, has held the #1 ranking for years, and that she is the most accomplished female player alive.

But these rankings reflect this year alone, and at the beginning of 2009, we will reset them again. This is something discussed among the WPBA membership and voted on by the WPBA membership at the beginning of 2007.

Melissa, with all due repsect from one who admires both you and the WPBA as much as anyone on the planet......

First of all, Nadal is not number one yet. He will soon be number one because he has won far more titles than Federer in the past year. That's as it should be, for when the elite are compared with each other in any sport, titles won is the measure that counts. If that were the case for Kelly Fisher, nobody would have any issue with it, but this is not the case.

We have all read on WPBA.com that Kelly would have been ranked #1 even if she'd lost in the finals last Sunday, despite the fact that, had she done so, she would have been without a WPBA title in sixteen months, and in a period in which Allison won five titles. She would have been #1 despite no titles in 2008 to Allison's two.

Allison has won five of the last eight WPBA events and is dominating the tour. Yes, five titles in eight events is nothing short of domination, the sort of domination that has been typical of Allison Fisher's six year run at #1 that has, very mysteriously, come to an end.

Kelly Fisher is a credit to women's pro pool and a truly wonderful player with much to be proud of but calling her #1 is nothing short of ludicrous.

One must presume that far too few ranking points are being awarded for titles won, as any ranking system that doesn't arrive at the patently obvious conclusion that Allison Fisher is, even recently, the most accomplished player on the WPBA player, cannot be taken very seriously.

Allison Fisher has every right to say that she is presently dominating the WPBA tour. Not only should she be #1, but she should have a very big lead over #2. For her to be ranked #6, well that's just a joke.

 

[Wyoming Will]

Here is the current point distribution. Now imagine if the money were distributed this way.

 

[av84fun]

As ususal...an informative and SPOT ON post! I don't know what Alli's feelings are on this subject...that's a very personal thing.

But I do know one thing. What she cares MOST about is WINNING EVENTS and in doing so this year she has confounded the rules designed to make it harder for her to do so.

I would guess that while she might not like things the way they are now, she would take a lot of personal pride in not only beating her opponents but beating a system that is stacked against her!

DOOOOOOMMMMMMM FOREVER!

(-:

Melissa, with all due repsect from one who admires both you and the WPBA as much as anyone on the planet......

First of all, Nadal is not number one yet. He will soon be number one because he has won far more titles than Federer in the past year. That's as it should be, for when the elite are compared with each other in any sport, titles won is the measure that counts. If that were the case for Kelly Fisher, nobody would have any issue with it, but this is not the case.

We have all read on WPBA.com that Kelly would have been ranked #1 even if she'd lost in the finals last Sunday, despite the fact that, had she done so, she would have been without a WPBA title in sixteen months, and in a period in which Allison won five titles. She would have been #1 despite no titles in 2008 to Allison's two.

Allison has won five of the last eight WPBA events and is dominating the tour. Yes, five titles in eight events is nothing short of domination, the sort of domination that has been typical of Allison Fisher's six year run at #1 that has, very mysteriously, come to an end.

Kelly Fisher is a credit to women's pro pool and a truly wonderful player with much to be proud of but calling her #1 is nothing short of ludicrous.

One must presume that far too few ranking points are being awarded for titles won, as any ranking system that doesn't arrive at the patently obvious conclusion that Allison Fisher is, even recently, the most accomplished player on the WPBA player, cannot be taken very seriously.

Allison Fisher has every right to say that she is presently dominating the WPBA tour. Not only should she be #1, but she should have a very big lead over #2. For her to be ranked #6, well that's just a joke.

 

[Johnnyt]

Like enough on here have said, Kelly Fisher is a great player and she might get to #1 someday, but A. Fisher is #1 hands down for now and probably far into the future. I base that on tour stops won, games won, #1 finishes, #2 finishes, #3 finishes, #4 finishes. All this while the powers that be try to knock her back.

I don't see any of the top five or ten players sitting on the board. If a top player was on the board and said no to the new ratings, would it matter? Me thinks not. Me thinks what ever the queen bee wants the queen bee get's. Johnnyt

 

[Nostroke]

Like enough on here have said, Kelly Fisher is a great player and she might get to #1 someday, but A. Fisher is #1 hands down for now and probably far into the future. I base that on tour stops won, games won, #1 finishes, #2 finishes, #3 finishes, #4 finishes. All this while the powers that be try to knock her back.

Thats the way i look at it- I know who the best player in the WPBA is and until the ranking system becomes a bit more accurate in reflecting that I will just ignore it.

Now if anyone wants to know who the Nicest WPBA lady is, just PM me,