WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

swerve cannot cancel squirt

And another thing on this whole squirt/swerve cancellation thing that has been under discussion -

You are not cancelling squirt by inducing swerve, because the cue ball has been driven off the straight line path to its target by virtue of the squirt. All the induced swerve can do is bring the cue ball back across that straight line, not back on that straight line.

In other words, it is a misunderstanding to suggest that by shooting down on the ball when applying left or right spin, you can create swerve that will negate the effect of the squirt.
 
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swest said:
You are not cancelling squirt by inducing swerve, because the cue ball has been driven off the straight line path to its target by virtue of the squirt. All the induced swerve can do is bring it back across that straight line, not back on that straight line.
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Yes, you have to control exactly where the two lines will cross in order to make the shot work. Swerve is much harder to estimate and control than squirt is, and jacking up to increase swerve makes it that much harder.

pj
chgo
 
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One of the things Wade Crane showed me about his break

Pay Up Sucker said:
I don't think i was hitting with the top of the tip but it sure felt like it. Sometimes you have to describe things by a "feeling" to get a point across to someone even though what your describing is not how it actually is. Now if you never actually try said "things" you will find it very hard to understand.

added: I used CJ touch of inside technique just for breaking last night and a few people said "wow you have a loud break!"
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Yes, I wondered when I would "hear" about that. One of the things Wade Crane showed me about his break is he cues a tip to the right side of center and then snaps it towards center. It's the same concept and enables you to hit the one ball fuller and it stuns the cue ball as well.

Yes, feeling like you hit the cue ball with a specific portion of the tip promotes precision. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
swest said:
And another thing on this whole squirt/swerve cancellation thing that has been under discussion -

You are not cancelling squirt by inducing swerve, because the cue ball has been driven off the straight line path to its target by virtue of the squirt. All the induced swerve can do is bring the cue ball back across that straight line, not back on that straight line. You are correct but before it can go across the 'straight' line it has to meet that 'straight' line & that is where CJ (& I) want it to make contact with the object ball

In other words, it is a misunderstanding to suggest that by shooting down on the ball when applying left or right spin, you can create swerve that will negate the effect of the squirt.
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Negate? No. Offest? Yes, as can be done with the forward momentum-spin-distance ratio.

Best Regards,
 
Pay Up Sucker said:
Sorry but i don't even know what cit is or really care what it is :) but you should pay attention to my posts. I think Pj now understands the technique and your on your own now...good luck with that and "the teacher is the game and everyone else" LMAO ;)
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Here is your post where you believe inside English would have cut induced throw actually move in the opposite direction of the cb spin. I'm still trying to figure out how applying inside English could ever allow one to hit the ob fuller for the cut but then again, someone who can hit the top half of the cb with the top half of the tip and create follow may be capable of just about anything, especially when you've got a mind meld feel connection with a world champion. :rolleyes:

11-03-2012, 02:37 PM
Well to be honest I have tried this technique on just three shots because I was curious and I did make them all It did feel like I was kind of aiming into space and I was forcing the ball into the pocket because I believe you are making a fuller hit with this technique and that makes me understand why you get more of a natural roll and control of the cue ball after you hit it. This seems like it would be a good weapon to use occasionally when needed or often if mastered. I will try it again for an hour or so when I get to a table.

Now as for your grip, I can see you use a continental tennis grip and when you move into a pool stance, it automatically cocks your wrist forward on its own. The cue is held against the index knuckle and heel pad in your palm. This also seems to limit your back swing. It feels uncomfortable to get a full range of motion in the back swing while holding a pool cue with this grip technique and it forces you to have a more complete follow through (accelerated stroke) Now an easy way to show this grip is to tell someone to point there remote at the TV like they are going to change the channel.
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When you get a chance watch Efren or Bustemante follow their ball

Tennesseejoe said:
I have followed this thread from the beginning and had some reservations based on the descriptions/techniques. But then I tried it out for the 3 hours and at some point it really made sense and more importantly increased my accuracy and consistency. This is really a great soncept so far --- but time will tell.

But here is the problem: How can you hit the cue ball with the top of the tip and get follow English? It seems to me that you have to hit it with the bottom side of the tip no matter how much you elevate the cue.

OMG I'm confused.
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You don't need to hit as high on the cue ball for follow as you may currently think. Elevate your bridge slightly and think of hitting the top of your cue to center to follow and hit some shots.

Notice how much you can follow using this technique and if you need a "power follow" then do what you need to do. My systems and techniques address regular playing shots, and any specialty strokes usually require an adjustment.

When you get a chance watch Efren or Bustemante follow their ball, they stay a shade below center at times and the cue ball follows with ease.
 
nobcitypool said:
Here is your post where you believe inside English would have cut induced throw actually move in the opposite direction of the cb spin. I'm still trying to figure out how applying inside English could ever allow one to hit the ob fuller for the cut but then again, someone who can hit the top half of the cb with the top half of the tip and create follow may be capable of just about anything, especially when you've got a mind meld feel connection with a world champion. :rolleyes:
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sorry dude, i moved on and a discussion with you and i would be pointless :)
 
It's about consistency and precision.

Sloppy Pockets said:
There are dozens of examples in both videos of Kiamco using a level stroke to hit the ball above the CB's equator with the bottom portion of the tip. Here's a capture of the one you mentioned above. To the right is one taken of some other guy who strokes the rock well above the center for follow... or at least he used to in his prime.

Sometimes we're really not at all sure of what we're doing until someone gets a stop-action photo of it. Dr. Dave and his high-speed camera demonstrated this with some top players, and published the results for all to see. To attempt to demean his (and many others here) fine contributions to the understanding of this game is a slight at the very least.
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There are certainly time when you follow the ball that you use a level cue. I don't think using a level cue consistently is a good practice.

Thinking in terms of using the bottom of your cue does two things when you experience it. If you don't try it, like anything else in life you will never "real eyes' the advantage to using this cue angle.

It's about consistency and precision. Trying to describe every aspect of it in writing isn't productive and I usually show this technique in person so you can fully understand. We are limited on this Forum, however the video portion is coming soon.

Like anything else you see a pro do and don't quite understand. Put it on a shelf and maybe you can take it back down and use it later. You'll never know unless you give it a try.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Negate? No. Offest? Yes, as can be done with the forward momentum-spin-distance ratio.

Best Regards,
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Alrighty then.

So, let me get this straight, you are going to stroke downward on the cue ball (to which you are applying some squirt-inducing left or right spin) just enough to cause enough swerve to get the cue ball back to its original (call it ghostball) destination to make the original shot (the one you would have had without the squirt)... and you are going to be able to do that for all relative positions of CB and OB, and all table conditions?

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that is realistic... or even possible, with sufficient accuracy to make it a viable choice.
 
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Pay Up Sucker said:
sorry dude, i moved on and a discussion with you and i would be pointless :)
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You are correct, I have a difficult time discussing anything of importance when facts and logic are totally ignored and everything the other party says can be justified by "it felt that way" regardless of the facts, laws of physics, etc.".
 
swest said:
Alrighty then.

So, let me get this straight, you are going to stroke downward on the cue ball (to which you are applying some squirt-inducing left or right spin) just enough to cause enough swerve to get the cue ball back to its original (call it ghostball) destination to make the original shot (the one you would have had without the squirt)... and you are going to be able to do that for all relative positions of CB and OB, and all table conditions?

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that is realistic... or even possible, with sufficient accuracy to make it a viable choice.
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Mr. Sam,

I personally do not usually change my cue angle. I subconsciously 'compensate' by formulating the desired amont of tip offset(spin) with the appropriate ratio of forward momentum( speed) for the distance at hand. If for some reason I do not want to hit the CB at that speed I subconsciously adjust for some or more swerve if I want to hit softer.

I've been doing this very well since I was a teenager some 45 years ago. I do not take out a slide rule or calculator to figure it out. My subconscious mind & body do it quite simply. Do I occasionally mis some shots? Sure, but no more than when I am not using english, which is rarely.

Does this take table time? Sure, & more than just an hour.

The human mind & body are a synergy of amazing capabilities if we simply keep our brain from getting in the way of them functioning as intended.

Is it for everyone? Certainly not as CJ & others have pointed out.

Best Regards,
 
Special Thanks to CJ

Ya know, pro players dont have to come on this site to help other folks.

I for one really appreciate CJ's posts and yes I have read them all and followed his suggestions. I'm in St. Louis and we just dont have any pros here that are willing to give up information to improve your game. Hmmmm

Thats the way it was back when I was a kid and wanted to learn, nobody would tell you squat they just wanted your money.

I bought CJ's DVD a couple of months ago and started using his 6 gun stance, right eye coming down on the shot line and left foot in line with the shot. Then after reading a zillion posts on the hammer stroke started using it. Oh, by the way, I do 50 reps with a 22oz hammer every morning and then take a break before practicing. You have to wait or else it gets real messy. :smile:

I'm finally starting to get the feel of the cue ball back and I couldnt be happier.

There was a time in my pool shooting past when I could feel the cue ball and could do anything I wanted to. This is when pool became fun, no work just fun knowing I could run out anytime but didnt because I wanted to play a little longer.

CJ, waiting for your next DVD and your video on AZB.

Thanks man.

John
 
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ENGLISH! said:
... Just because it exists does not mean it is worth considering in application for many practical shots. ...
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I would go further. If you are consciously considering swerve other than during practice (or in preliminary planning of the shot) you are probably going to have a harder time.

On the other hand, I suspect that the effect is significant in situations where you think it is not but you have learned subconsciously to correct for it. Any factual error in your conscious thought process makes no difference as long as you get your stick to the right line to make the shot.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I would go further. If you are consciously considering swerve other than during practice (or in preliminary planning of the shot) you are probably going to have a harder time.

On the other hand, I suspect that the effect is significant in situations where you think it is not but you have learned subconsciously to correct for it. Any factual error in your conscious thought process makes no difference as long as you get your stick to the right line to make the shot.
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Mr. Jewett,

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that in any manner that would be productive. So...I guess I will just leave it with this being said.

Regards,
Rick
 
CJ,

A pro friend and I have been discussing the cueing technique you brought up that Buddy uses for a year or two. We talked to an old road partner of his that showed us the idea behind it. A slight elevation allows more tip contact and quite a bit of follow if you need it.

I've been studying video and noticed the best examples of doing this are again, the Pinoys. Going further, the tip really leaves the cue ball for above center side spin unless you use this way. The slight elevation allows the stroke to move through the cue ball more without as much deflection.

With a good stroke, a half tip above center, you can really get some top spin. This is especially good for soft strokes and tight spaces. I noticed you are very good with speed control. You hit the ball firm, yet it moves minimally when you are slow rolling the cue ball. Are you employing this stroke? Thanks, for answering some questions I've had for years about this.

Best,
Mike
 
swest said:
You started with BHE and then switched to CTE... I think you meant BHE right along, no?

Anyway, yes, I agree that BHE's usefulness drops off as the distance between the cue ball and object ball increases, and no, I wouldn't use it at distance...

Thanks for the clarification and additional guidance.
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Correct. lol. Got my acronyms confused
 
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