WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

West Point 1987 said:
The thing that this technique taught me was that English is WAY over rated...yes, spinning shots in and using English (side spin) to move the cue ball after contact is critical...but not nearly as often as we tend to think. Using this technique, using speed, draw and follow to control the cue ball works 95% of the time--no kidding. I can put the cue ball pretty much wherever I need to without relying on side spin. Once you get used to using this, you'll wonder why you ever thought you needed to do anything else. Now, when I spin a shot in, I'm amazed at how "out of control" that feels now. You start to see that relying on side spin instead of the natural angles is so much less reliable.

Another point that was getting debated to death was over the spin that TOI puts on the cue ball...if you're doing it right, that small amount of spin is killed on collision with the object ball (especially on thicker cuts) and the cue ball "floats" with no real spin after that. Then, even as the object ball smacks into the center of the pocket the cue ball just creeps into the zone you where visualizing when you pulled the trigger.

As for one pocket or 14.1, this technique doubled my average runs...not that I was a real pattern player to begin with (although 8 ball is my game). I halved my innings average in 8 ball, too.
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Well choosen words, hats off sir :-)
 
glad to hear your game is improving and it sounds like you're understanding the TOI

West Point 1987 said:
The thing that this technique taught me was that English is WAY over rated...yes, spinning shots in and using English (side spin) to move the cue ball after contact is critical...but not nearly as often as we tend to think. Using this technique, using speed, draw and follow to control the cue ball works 95% of the time--no kidding. I can put the cue ball pretty much wherever I need to without relying on side spin. Once you get used to using this, you'll wonder why you ever thought you needed to do anything else. Now, when I spin a shot in, I'm amazed at how "out of control" that feels now. You start to see that relying on side spin instead of the natural angles is so much less reliable.

Another point that was getting debated to death was over the spin that TOI puts on the cue ball...if you're doing it right, that small amount of spin is killed on collision with the object ball (especially on thicker cuts) and the cue ball "floats" with no real spin after that. Then, even as the object ball smacks into the center of the pocket the cue ball just creeps into the zone you where visualizing when you pulled the trigger.

As for one pocket or 14.1, this technique doubled my average runs...not that I was a real pattern player to begin with (although 8 ball is my game). I halved my innings average in 8 ball, too.
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I'm glad to hear your game is improving and it sounds like you're understanding the TOI and "bringing it to the table."

I know you'll agree that it's not possible to understand what you just described unless you had experienced it first hand. I doesn't make sense that a system so simple could be a "game changer," and I'm glad it's working for you as it has for me. Keep up the good play. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
 
My game is in the middle of transformation at the moment. I only get about 4 hours a week to practice, and also two league nights, where I just play. I noticed that my old habits are fighting with the new stuff that I learned, but hopefully it will go away soon.

I noticed one thing here on AZ, when talking about TOI , almost everyone has to re-learn , because they are used to use outside english on cut shots.
In my case, two years ago someone showed me what english was and I started playing with it. Prior to that I always tried to hit the cue ball dead center. Since I started using spin on the cue ball, I always used inside english, especially on very thin cuts, and it never was a "touch". Now, since I started reading books and watching videos on the subject, I realize that I used "extreme" inside all the time.

So now, when I practice, I have to minimize the amount of IE that I use in order to bring it to TOI.

Outside english is something I almost never use, other than when I have to reverse the angle of the cueball when it comes off the second rail when I kick, or when trying to get out of a safety using a single rail kick.

P.S. and I still don't understand "pinning" the ball technique.
 
madmiller,

One thing to keep in mind is that shooting with inside english (which I have been doing for nearly 46 years) is different than CJ's TOI. CJ has no intention to spin the ball, neither the CB nor the OB.

The difference in the two, in part, is the speed of the shots.

Best Regards,
Rick
 
"It's easy to make pool complicated, and complicated to bring out pool's simplicity."

naji said:
Ok i do not deny the power of the unconscious mind, but it is like everything else. Tell someone to use all his fingers to type a paper while blind folded, for sure he might hit a letter or two for the 1st time, it takes a lot of training and time to allow the subconscious mind to learn how to type, or play piano, or guitar, or carving wood.
My point, i do not want to tell new players, you have bad subconscious you cannot play, or you are not gifted and talented and scare them away with these magic words, dead stroke, subconscious mind, and how to use it...etc. It is all hard work what you put is what you get.
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Yes, it takes time to train the unconsious mind, and it's no easy task to get the outcomes we desire. One thing I've learned is the unconscious doesn't do well with a lot of choices. The trick is knowing how to condense a whole "file" of mental information down to a few simple "triggers."

This is what the TOI Technique does better than anything else I've been exposed to in my pool career.

"It's easy to make pool complicated, and complicated to bring out pool's simplicity." CJ Wiley 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
ENGLISH! said:
madmiller,

One thing to keep in mind is that shooting with inside english (which I have been doing for nearly 46 years) is different than CJ's TOI. CJ has no intention to spin the ball, neither the CB nor the OB.

The difference in the two, in part, is the speed of the shots.

Best Regards,
Rick
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Yes, that's what I figured out after reading this thread. I was spinning the ball without even knowing why I did it. For some reason it's just easier for me to make cut shots with extreme inside.
I am glad that I am a beginner and has been doing it only for two years, so it's a lot easier to fix for me than for someone who's been playing for a long time.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, it takes time to train the unconsious mind, and it's no easy task to get the outcomes we desire. One thing I've learned is the unconscious doesn't do well with a lot of choices. The trick is knowing how to condense a whole "file" of mental information down to a few simple "triggers."

This is what the TOI Technique does better than anything else I've been exposed to in my pool career.

"It's easy to make pool complicated, and complicated to bring out pool's simplicity." CJ Wiley 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Do you give private lessons Mr Wiley? I would be interested in what I could learn from you.
 
ENGLISH! said:
madmiller,

One thing to keep in mind is that shooting with inside english (which I have been doing for nearly 46 years) is different than CJ's TOI. CJ has no intention to spin the ball, neither the CB nor the OB.

The difference in the two, in part, is the speed of the shots.

Best Regards,
Rick
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It amazes me that as much as you have posted in this thread, and as many times as you have said that the TOI has really improved your game, that you STILL don't understand what CJ is even talking about! Try reading post #1378, maybe you will then understand it.
 
Neil said:
It amazes me that as much as you have posted in this thread, and as many times as you have said that the TOI has really improved your game, that you STILL don't understand what CJ is even talking about! Try reading post #1378, maybe you will then understand it.
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it's not that TOI improved my game, it's the subject's "hammer wrist" action.
I am still working on TOI.
 
Kudos to TOI

Mr. Wiley,
Lately Ive done more reading here that I normally do because it winter and Im inside more mainly I scan the subject being talked about and occasionally latch onto one.

Im glad I started reading the TOI.... stuff, Today I stopped to hit balls, do some banks and just let my stroke out and I remembered TOI....

I always play my ball at the side of the pocket, I can miss the pocket point and have a little more room to work with if I cut too wide and today I did that with Toi.....I really like the way the cue ball floats when you do it right.....yeah I might have to learn to wrap my mind around using it but it sure it worth it....one hour long session sure made me a believer.....

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
madmiller said:
Yes, that's what I figured out after reading this thread. I was spinning the ball without even knowing why I did it. For some reason it's just easier for me to make cut shots with extreme inside.
I am glad that I am a beginner and has been doing it only for two years, so it's a lot easier to fix for me than for someone who's been playing for a long time.
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My advice is don't replace one lopsided spin preference with another. Learn to use all kinds of spin, in moderation, without favoring one kind (except it's OK to favor no spin). Then when you have the experience and basic skills to make an informed choice, come back and try a "specialty" technique if you're still interested.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
My advice is don't replace one lopsided spin preference with another. Learn to use all kinds of spin, in moderation, without favoring one kind (except it's OK to favor no spin). Then when you have the experience and basic skills to make an informed choice, come back and try a "specialty" technique if you're still interested.

pj
chgo
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:)Believe me, I will! I am just starting out in the game and want to go far. And still it's mindboggling for me that there are a lot of guys out there that played pool on a regular basis for more than 5, 10 years who play worse than me.
I met a lot of guys who play every week in tournaments, leagues with life time pool experience who play on the same level that they played when I met them and it was 4 years ago when I picked up the cue for the first time in my life.
They practice all the time, some of them got pool tables home, but it seems like they stuck at the same level.
I got limited access to the pool table, but in my 4 years I improved a lot.
Not fast enough and not far enough if you ask me :grin-square:
 
Patrick Johnson said:
My advice is don't replace one lopsided spin preference with another. Learn to use all kinds of spin, in moderation, without favoring one kind (except it's OK to favor no spin). Then when you have the experience and basic skills to make an informed choice, come back and try a "specialty" technique if you're still interested.

pj
chgo
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Party pooper.
 
I knew there'd be a catch!:grin:
But I refuse to play for 5 years for example and still be only just a regular A player, like a lot of guys that I know are after playing for 30 years.:wink:
 
madmiller said:
I knew there'd be a catch!:grin:
But I refuse to play for 5 years for example and still be only just a regular A player, like a lot of guys that I know are after playing for 30 years.:wink:
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An "A player" is pretty spiffy in my neck of the woods. Many players never make it but still love the game.
 
CJ Wiley said:
It's not parallel because the outcome is deflection/throw, not spin (even though it does spin slightly) I'm aligning the TOI to either the center or edge of the object ball.

If I used true center it would aligned for the center of the pocket, however, I'm aligning a "Touch" to the inside so I'm hitting the object ball fuller....then "throwing" it into the center/left/right (depending on how much I accelerate). This give {me} a "feel" for the pocket like nothing else I've ever experienced.

When you're not getting the "fuller" feeling, then you aren't doing something correctly. The more you accelerate the better in most cases. This system does NOT allow you to be tentative with your shots.
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CJ,

I'm heading to the hall tommorrow to give it 3 hours. So I just want to clarify what you actually do.

When aiming a cut, where the center hit on the CB would be aiming at the right edge of the OB, to send the OB into the 'fuller hit' side of the pocket, where do you aim your cue stick with the TOI?

1. slightly inside but still parallel to the center hit cue line

2. from slightly inside but still aimed at the right edge of the OB (hence adding a bit of cut)

3. something different

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

Best Regards,
 
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