WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[SpiderWeb]

xxx

I usually dont listen to players that I have beat, but this time I will. I wish you would explain the strokes of great playerslike Keith, Allen H and Loui Roberts, and I am sure there are others but they stand out because of their odd stroke and how good they play.

 

[ENGLISH!]

CJ,

In post 1360 U say that your cue stick would be aiming at the same point as a center CB tip placement. Maybe this has been my problem really getting this or have I mis-interpreted your meaning.

U may not be actually doing this but does this describe it correctly? Are U aiming in pre-shot & then coming down a touch inside of a 'normal' center CB tip hit & then angling your cue to aim at the 'normal' center OB contact point for the cut?

In essence, turning a bit of 'parallel' english into a bit of 'mis-aligned' back hand english. When I say english, I know you do not intend to spin the ball. I'm merely using the term in reference to cue stick alignment.

Thanks in advance for the clarafication.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

All this "technical stuff" is just a description of why and how this happens

See red above....."the outcome". But the SETUP is parallel, right?

I'll post my question again:

So, CJ, if you have an exact 1/2 ball hit to the undercut side of the pocket cutting a ball to the left, using your aiming system, the point on the top of the center of the CB would line up with the right edge of the OB. TOI would be over a "touch" left parallel to that line and you'd aim/shoot straight down that line......so the stick aiming line would be just inside the edge of the right side of the OB, right?.......I hope so (I think you confirmed this on your post #1276), or I give up, lol. See previous photo #3 on post # 1275.

Now the OUTCOME to the above would be the CB would deflect (or, as you say, throw) slightly to the right and you'd have a center pocket hit.

I understand what you're saying on the "half ball hit," however I would aim at the same edge with the TOI because I'm trying to deflect it into the center. If I hit the center by mistake I'll hit the "undercut side of the pocket," as you mentioned with center.

What I've communucating with the "3 Part Pocket" system is a way that you don't have to hit the cue ball perfectly to get great results. There is human error and none of us can hit the center of the cue ball EVERY time.

Extending the perceived "margin of error" happens at the pocket, however, it STARTS with the contact point on the cue ball. After all the cue ball is your primary target. The contact on the object ball that effects the point hit in the pocket is a result....the incentive is to hit the cue ball with a "margin of error" of some degree (maybe one/sixteenth of a tip).

This may sound confusing unless you're an advanced player. If this doesn't make sense put it on a shelf and it will become more clear later, as you develop your understanding. None of this has to be understood in this manner if you're using the TOI and calibrating your shots to hit the center of the pocket. All this "technical stuff" is just a description of why and how this happens as a result of using TOI.

 

[One Pocket John]

Comment on TOI

Been practicing using TOI and I'm impressed.

I have always been a "helping spin" player. So switching to TOI and staying on the vertical axis of the cue ball was not easy for me to accept.

Throwing the OB into the pocket is a stroke changer and I mean throw as in throwing a rock.

I plan on using TOI because I like the hit.

The only stumbling block I have had with this whole thread is "how in the world do you put high follow on a cue ball with the top part of the tip"
I have tried everything I can think of to make this work and have failed.

At present I am staying with hitting the QB with the bottom part of the tip for follow.

I guess this is one of those things you would have to see in a video to get the idea.

Thanks CJ, in the last couple of months your advise (along with your DVD) has turned my game around for the better.

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

CJ,

I re-read post 1279. I can't wait for the videos. This language thing is debilitatiing.:wink:

From reading that post unless I'm taking it out of context, it 'sounds' like you are actually using the T.O.I with its 'throw'/deflection/squirt to achieve all of the different cut angles base off of the two(2) 'target points' on the OB, center & edge. You are not actually 'aiming' your reference points on the CB to those target points. You are using the 'CB throw' to get those CB reference points to contact the OB refererence points. (Perception & Connection)

You may want to PM with an answer, because if that is the case, there will be an even bigger can of worms spilled out.

If that is what you are actually doing, I can 'understand' it, as it would be similiar to me using the 'spin/swerve'. Only the results are different.

If I'm wrong, you do not have to explain just say 'WRONG' & I'll keep reading.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

The points are just "relative" to one another used to "create" an angle by connecting

CJ,

In post 1360 U say that your cue stick would be aiming at the same point as a center CB tip placement. Maybe this has been my problem really getting this or have I mis-interpreted your meaning.


Best Regards,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure where you see me saying that? It appears you are right back to aiming at the center of the cue ball.

I think you need to aim above the ball as you always have. Come down on the cue ball like you were coming down to center....THEN>>> come down slightly to the inside{of the cueball} and just be aware of the CENTER of the object ball (or the edge if over a half ball cut).

Think of it this way: You can aim the center of the cue ball and create any angle on the object ball, so it stands to reason that you could also aim the any part of the cue ball to the center of the object ball to do the same thing. The points are just "relative" to one another used to "create" an angle by connecting the two balls together.

The "center" in both examples (OB and CB) is just a relative point used as a "common denominator," and you can create any angle by using either the center of edge of the object ball. This has more to do with my aiming system, the TOI is much more than an "aiming" system.....it's an alignment, aiming and connection system.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Like the other TOI shots it appears to "float" when you hit it with very little spin

Been practicing using TOI and I'm impressed.

I have always been a "helping spin" player. So switching to TOI and staying on the vertical axis of the cue ball was not easy for me to accept.

Throwing the OB into the pocket is a stroke changer and I mean throw as in throwing a rock.

I plan on using TOI because I like the hit.

The only stumbling block I have had with this whole thread is "how in the world do you put high follow on a cue ball with the top part of the tip"
I have tried everything I can think of to make this work and have failed.

At present I am staying with hitting the QB with the bottom part of the tip for follow.

I guess this is one of those things you would have to see in a video to get the idea.

Thanks CJ, in the last couple of months your advise (along with your DVD) has turned my game around for the better.

John

Yeah, when we were talking about "pinning" the shots I didn't completely expain this technique because it caused so many "comments." Pinning is done with the top edge of the tip and for force follows the bottom edge. The sides may be used (on camera), however I think in terms of contacting with the top edge, or sometimes bottom edge on "force follow shots."

Most of the game is played with the top of the tip and you can follow the ball, however, it's more of a forced follow. Like the other TOI shots it appears to "float" when you hit it with very little spin.

If you are hitting a HIGH follow or "Force Follow" shot you would use the bottom of your tip applying the same principal. There are "specialty shots" and severe english shots that I don't put in the "normal" category for explanation. Power follow, draw, spin, jumps, masse's etc. are in this "specialty" category and must be addressed independently (even though certain common things still apply).

 

[One Pocket John]

Yeah, when we were talking about "pinning" the shots I didn't completely expain this technique because it caused so many "comments." Pinning is done with the top edge of the tip and for force follows the bottom edge. The sides may be used (on camera), however I think in terms of contacting with the top edge, or sometimes bottom edge on "force follow shots."

Most of the game is played with the top of the tip and you can follow the ball, however, it's more of a forced follow. Like the other TOI shots it appears to "float" when you hit it with very little spin.

If you are hitting a HIGH follow or "Force Follow" shot you would use the bottom of your tip applying the same principal. There are "specialty shots" and severe english shots that I don't put in the "normal" category for explanation. Power follow, draw, spin, jumps, masse's etc. are in this "specialty" category and must be addressed independently (even though certain common things still apply).

Man, thanks for clearing this up. Now I can focus on other things and finally get some sleep. :smile:

John

 

[West Point 1987]

I usually dont listen to players that I have beat, but this time I will. I wish you would explain the strokes of great playerslike Keith, Allen H and Loui Roberts, and I am sure there are others but they stand out because of their odd stroke and how good they play.

Add Tommy Kennedy to that list...talk about a guy taking all the extraneous moves out of his stroke!:smile:

 

[Mikjary]

I've found that the TOI technique is not for the weak hearted, limp wristed, pocket speed, ball babying, slow rolling pool aficianado. It relies on speed control and a firm delivery to use it right. Even on slow shots I try to firm my stroke. The ball doesn't go any farther, just gets there more accurately.

Every day I add new position patterns where I used to use outside spin and have the cue ball roll too far or come up short. Mainly because I was relying on spin instead of speed. I firm my shots, yet the cue ball drifts lightly around the table which makes it easier to control.

My recommendation is to not learn this system. And if anybody does, don't tell anybody else about it!

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

CJ,

I re-read post 1279. I can't wait for the videos. This language thing is debilitatiing.:wink:

From reading that post unless I'm taking it out of context, it 'sounds' like you are actually using the T.O.I with its 'throw'/deflection/squirt to achieve all of the different cut angles base off of the two(2) 'target points' on the OB, center & edge. You are not actually 'aiming' your reference points on the CB to those target points. You are using the 'CB throw' to get those CB reference points to contact the OB refererence points. (Perception & Connection)

You may want to PM with an answer, because if that is the case, there will be an even bigger can of worms spilled out.

If that is what you are actually doing, I can 'understand' it, as it would be similiar to me using the 'spin/swerve'. Only the results are different.

If I'm wrong, you do not have to explain just say 'WRONG' & I'll keep reading.

Best Regards,

'The Game is the Teacher' Isn't "It". :clapping::wink:

 

[TheThaiger]

.

My recommendation is to not learn this system. And if anybody does, don't tell anybody else about it!

My recommendations is not to learn ANY system anyone puts on here, ever. Even more so when anyone inserts pictures or diagrams, or starts to talk about physics and geometry.

We desperately needs a geeks sub-forum, so as to keep all their damaging analry far away from impressionable minds.

 

[CJ Wiley]

show the cue ball reaction that I'm talking about with the TOI stroke

Man, thanks for clearing this up. Now I can focus on other things and finally get some sleep. :smile:

John

Yeah, man, get some sleep and I'll make a point to clear up anything else asap. None of these techniques are difficult, however, explaining them is much tougher than showing them.

It will also help to show the cue ball reaction that I'm talking about with the TOI stroke. It's actually fun to do. If there's any other questions, John, please let me know soon.

 

[naji]

This is a true statement. I trained myself to do this through extensive martial arts training, Neuro Linguistic Programming, and Meditation.

I once defeated a Nationally Ranked Player (Roger Griffis) 17 games in a row in the finals of a tournament and didn't remember anything. This happened numerous times in gambling matches and tournament play.

Ok i do not deny the power of the unconscious mind, but it is like everything else. Tell someone to use all his fingers to type a paper while blind folded, for sure he might hit a letter or two for the 1st time, it takes a lot of training and time to allow the subconscious mind to learn how to type, or play piano, or guitar, or carving wood. Teach it the wrong thing and you are stuck until you correct it. The subconscious is good for limited repetitive motion, the more parts of the body involved the harder the level such as pool, golf, tennis, add to that other variables like Jay said then we are into another adventure.
I have been playing for more than 30 years, i have just in last year and so be more consistent, sure, i taught my subconscious mind the right way to play, am i perfect hell no, am i closer to being perfect hell yes.
Bottom line i taught my subconscious mind, like teaching a kid how to read and write, is it the subconscious or my dedication to strive for excellency is to be credited.
My point, i do not want to tell new players, you have bad subconscious you cannot play, or you are not gifted and talented and scare them away with these magic words, dead stroke, subconscious mind, and how to use it...etc. It is all hard work what you put is what you get.

 

[Hector3cushion]

I've found that the TOI technique is not for the weak hearted, limp wristed, pocket speed, ball babying, slow rolling pool aficianado. View attachment 249827

right on point

 

[West Point 1987]

Ok i do not deny the power of the unconscious mind, but it is like everything else. Tell someone to use all his fingers to type a paper while blind folded, for sure he might hit a letter or two for the 1st time, it takes a lot of training and time to allow the subconscious mind to learn how to type, or play piano, or guitar, or carving wood. Teach it the wrong thing and you are stuck until you correct it. The subconscious is good for limited repetitive motion, the more parts of the body involved the harder the level such as pool, golf, tennis, add to that other variables like Jay said then we are into another adventure.
I have been playing for more than 30 years, i have just in last year and so be more consistent, sure, i taught my subconscious mind the right way to play, am i perfect hell no, am i closer to being perfect hell yes.
Bottom line i taught my subconscious mind, like teaching a kid how to read and write, is it the subconscious or my dedication to strive for excellency is to be credited.
My point, i do not want to tell new players, you have bad subconscious you cannot play, or you are not gifted and talented and scare them away with these magic words, dead stroke, subconscious mind, and how to use it...etc. It is all hard work what you put is what you get.

Good post. I think what separates players (apart from experience) is the innate ability to "internalize" aspects of a complex physical act (like walking, shooting a gun, playing pool, swinging a golf club, etc.) more easily than others. Some novice players are "naturals" in that they are able to internalize most of the physical parts of the act of stroking a shot, concentrating consciously on the bigger things. Might be why good pool players can usually pick up golf or bowling pretty easily. I'm constantly amazed at how easily my son developed a good consistent stroke and the ability to let it out and go for it...I think I was the same way, can't remember (actually I know he's better at it now than I was at his age). I do know that I never worried about how I was "pinning" a shot when I started out...I just did it. I can't describe it very well, especially without inviting a bunch of debate on how other folks perceive it. Others, even more advanced players, tend to have a problem with this, paying overt attention to the small stuff (grip pressure, what you're doing with the ring finger on your bridge hand, etc.). When someone tries to describe one or more of the small, complex actions, we get all hung up on the physics, etc, to no one's advantage. When you reach out and pick up a coffee cup, do you consciously consider what each finger is doing to ensure you don't spill it all over yourself? No...how someone files away the micro movements into their subconscious routine is a mystery to me, but I think that's what separates the players from each other.

 

[naji]

My recommendations is not to learn ANY system anyone puts on here, ever. Even more so when anyone inserts pictures or diagrams, or starts to talk about physics and geometry.

We desperately needs a geeks sub-forum, so as to keep all their damaging analry far away from impressionable minds.

I almost was going to agree with you, but to my surprise, the system really works great for advance players who know how to play with english shots. I always used inside english but never for aiming purposes of many shots, i used cue deflection for thin cuts to help over come the fear of missing the whole ball if i attempted to over cut with center hit.

I set up 9 balls on table at fixed location varying distances from pocket and from cue ball, and shot them the way i used to shoot them, i made most of them, missed one or two, i tried CJ aim way on all shots, to my surprise i missed none, tried it multiple times, it is really better than shooting standard way with all kind of english or no english especially if inside get you position on next ball .

Obviously there is times where you cannot use inside, especially in one pocket game where the speed and positioning play is a bit more demanding for varieties of shots as well as bank shots when outside english maybe the way.

It takes practice but i thinks it is worth while.

Thanks CJ

 

[West Point 1987]

I almost was going to agree with you, but to my surprise, the system really works great for advance players who know how to play with english shots. I always used inside english but never for aiming purposes of many shots, i used cue deflection for thin cuts to help over come the fear of missing the whole ball if i attempted to over cut with center hit.

I set up 9 balls on table at fixed location varying distances from pocket and from cue ball, and shot them the way i used to shoot them, i made most of them, missed one or two, i tried CJ aim way on all shots, to my surprise i missed none, tried it multiple times, it is really better than shooting standard way with all kind of english or no english especially if inside get you position on next ball .

Obviously there is times where you cannot use inside, especially in one pocket game where the speed and positioning play is a bit more demanding for varieties of shots as well as bank shots when outside english maybe the way.

It takes practice but i thinks it is worth while.

Thanks CJ

The thing that this technique taught me was that English is WAY over rated...yes, spinning shots in and using English (side spin) to move the cue ball after contact is critical...but not nearly as often as we tend to think. Using this technique, using speed, draw and follow to control the cue ball works 95% of the time--no kidding. I can put the cue ball pretty much wherever I need to without relying on side spin. Once you get used to using this, you'll wonder why you ever thought you needed to do anything else. Now, when I spin a shot in, I'm amazed at how "out of control" that feels now. You start to see that relying on side spin instead of the natural angles is so much less reliable.

Another point that was getting debated to death was over the spin that TOI puts on the cue ball...if you're doing it right, that small amount of spin is killed on collision with the object ball (especially on thicker cuts) and the cue ball "floats" with no real spin after that. Then, even as the object ball smacks into the center of the pocket the cue ball just creeps into the zone you where visualizing when you pulled the trigger.

As for one pocket or 14.1, this technique doubled my average runs...not that I was a real pattern player to begin with (although 8 ball is my game). I halved my innings average in 8 ball, too.

 

[naji]

The thing that this technique taught me was that English is WAY over rated...yes, spinning shots in and using English (side spin) to move the cue ball after contact is critical...but not nearly as often as we tend to think. Using this technique, using speed, draw and follow to control the cue ball works 95% of the time--no kidding. I can put the cue ball pretty much wherever I need to without relying on side spin. Once you get used to using this, you'll wonder why you ever thought you needed to do anything else. Now, when I spin a shot in, I'm amazed at how "out of control" that feels now. You start to see that relying on side spin instead of the natural angles is so much less reliable.

Another point that was getting debated to death was over the spin that TOI puts on the cue ball...if you're doing it right, that small amount of spin is killed on collision with the object ball (especially on thicker cuts) and the cue ball "floats" with no real spin after that. Then, even as the object ball smacks into the center of the pocket the cue ball just creeps into the zone you where visualizing when you pulled the trigger.

As for one pocket or 14.1, this technique doubled my average runs...not that I was a real pattern player to begin with (although 8 ball is my game). I halved my innings average in 8 ball, too.

Thanks Woody, i agree. I see you are in Nicosia, Cyprus, lucky you, what great place for summer vacation?

 

[Neil]

The thing that this technique taught me was that English is WAY over rated...yes, spinning shots in and using English (side spin) to move the cue ball after contact is critical...but not nearly as often as we tend to think. Using this technique, using speed, draw and follow to control the cue ball works 95% of the time--no kidding. I can put the cue ball pretty much wherever I need to without relying on side spin. Once you get used to using this, you'll wonder why you ever thought you needed to do anything else. Now, when I spin a shot in, I'm amazed at how "out of control" that feels now. You start to see that relying on side spin instead of the natural angles is so much less reliable.
Glad that you finally understand that. It has been "preached" on here for years by a number of people. Now, this is not a slight on you, but people in general...far too many people don't pay attention to WHAT is said unless a certain WHO says it. Those that learn the fastest always listen to WHAT is said, no matter who says it.
Another point that was getting debated to death was over the spin that TOI puts on the cue ball...if you're doing it right, that small amount of spin is killed on collision with the object ball (especially on thicker cuts) and the cue ball "floats" with no real spin after that. Then, even as the object ball smacks into the center of the pocket the cue ball just creeps into the zone you where visualizing when you pulled the trigger.
When CJ was having trouble getting this point across, I made a post exactly explaining what should happen, as you also just have. I have to say, you are the only one posting on it that I can really say actually understands it. Good job. Many of the others saying that it helps them are actually describing using more english than required to get the job done. In reality, for most peoples strokes, it is actually only about 1/8 of a tip of english.
As for one pocket or 14.1, this technique doubled my average runs...not that I was a real pattern player to begin with (although 8 ball is my game). I halved my innings average in 8 ball, too.

Great to hear. Always great to hear someone improving from something on here.