WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[CJ Wiley]

The tip follows what you're doing with your right hand (of right handed)

Can "pinning" be described as using a "kill stroke" (using draw hitting below center, that wears off before the cue ball contacts the object ball) combined with side spin? Just trying to wrap my mind around this technique. I think I use this technique but can't be sure.

I don't have Dallas on my schedule this year but you never know. I noticed that you an Mary Avina are headed up to North Carolina to give pool lessons. Hope the two of you have much success.

JoeyA

It's not how you hit the cue ball, it's the motion you use with your hand to allow the TIP make a descending blow to the cue ball.....so that it travels exactly down the path and and this is achieved by focusing on your hand motion. The tip follows what you're doing with your right hand (of right handed) and is a direct reflection of that connection. Have you notice how much action the Champion players get with very little effort?

This is not because they are so "powerful" it's because their technique is so accurate. It's like an accomplished martial artist can create incredible force with very little effort because their technique is so refined and they've eliminated any unnecessary movement or motion. In pool this is difficult to detect, but I'm sure you know it's there.

If your hand moves up slightly the tip will follow and if it moves down slightly the tip will also follow.....if the hand moves straight, the tip moves straight.....I'm certainly not saying this is complicated, I am saying this motion can be improved in most players....and as an effect their tip will have a more efficient, precise, "Pinning" effect on the cue ball.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Be careful.

You do not want to talk about the path of the tip. :yikes:

 

[CJ Wiley]

I believe with all my heart, strength and mind that the 2 Shot Rules are 10 Times....

Be careful.

You do not want to talk about the path of the tip. :yikes:

I've been practicing and concentrating on the Pinning action of the TIP by making sure the top/edge is extending straight through the TOI Point on the cue ball. This is the final piece of the puzzle for me, it's the key to getting that super precise hit - the reaction of the cue ball is immediate and defined.

I've increased my "sword repetitions" to 200 a day (100 with each arm) and my stroke is getting super-charged. I'm looking forward to playing again, and after the long talk with Joe Tucker about "2 Shot Roll Out" rules, I'm seeing the game in a different light.

I would like to debate the differences between "2 Shot Roll Out" and "1 Foul Ball in Hand" rules on AZ BILLIARDS to see once and for all which rules bring out the best in the game.......any takers??? I believe with all my heart, strength and mind that the 2 Shot Rules are at least 10 Times Better than 1 Foul Ball in Hand.

This is an important issue, the Game is SO MUCH BETTER with the greatest rules applied. Anybody that's actually played a lot of ROLL OUT will understand my position.

The Game (with proper rules) is the Teacher'

 

[DTL]

...........................

 

[CJ Wiley]

We all know the engine and control center of the stroke and game - "All in the Hands"

The hand is one of the most complex structures in the human body........so much that orthopedic surgeons must spend an additional 3-5 years of fellowship training to be able to call themselves a "Hand Surgeon". Each hand contains:

*29 major and minor bones (many people have a few more).
*29 major joints.
*At least 123 named ligaments.
*34 muscles which move the fingers and thumb (half in the palm)
*48 named nerves
*30 named arteries and nearly as many smaller named branches.

DTL

Yes, the hand is the "master control center" of the pool stroke...once a player gets the hand motion correct everything else falls in place. That's why I've never had discussions with champion players about elbow, shoulder, pendulum/piston stokes, etc. We "Real Eyes" the engine and control center of the stroke [and game] are "All in the Hands".

 

[chilli dipper]

Yes, the hand is the "master control center" of the pool stroke...once a player gets the hand motion correct everything else falls in place. That's why I've never had discussions with champion players about elbow, shoulder, pendulum/piston stokes, etc. We "Real Eyes" the engine and control center of the stroke [and game] are "All in the Hands".

Can this be said about your stroke CJ? your hand looks to be frozen and all shoulder movement from what I remember

 

[ENGLISH!]

Can this be said about your stroke CJ? your hand looks to be frozen and all shoulder movement from what I remember

You have an interesting posting history since joining on 8-30-2013.

 

[CJ Wiley]

how they produce cue acceleration and incredible accuracy.

Can this be said about your stroke CJ? your hand looks to be frozen and all shoulder movement from what I remember

Yes, I get most of my physical feedback through my hand and although it may seem to be "frozen" {to you} it's actually not. My grip favors a tennis/golf grip because I played all three games growing up at the same time......and my grip conformed to each game.

This is why more champion players need to express what they do, it's not at all like it appears, but there are some common denominators. I first "Real Eyesed" this by talking to Buddy Hall and Earl Strickland about their grips and how they produce cue acceleration and incredible accuracy.

This is true with the golf swing as well, it's not as it appears to the eye, there's an optical illusion produced when the wrists cock, the arms raise, the shoulders turn and the hips coil all in a synchronized movement.

Pool is not as physically demanding as golf, however the movement is there in a minimized version. Until someone communicates what they're doing it's almost impossible to discern. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

they first MUST improve their pre shot routine to reach their top performance potent

I found a way to merge the drill "One Pocket John" introduced me to with the Hammer Stroke and came up with a great way to teach the technique quicker and more effectively.

A regular student just took a lesson and utilized the "Hammer Push Drill".....it's fantastic. The fact is when a player gets the fundamentals down the subconscious doesn't have to make any unnecessary adjustments, thus freeing it {their subconscious mind} up to play the game.

Then your entire mental focus can be directed at creating all the angles, position play, and enjoying the art of the game.....most players are doing so many things physically wrong getting down on the shot they first MUST improve their pre shot routine to reach their top performance potential.

Then the game starts to open up and the enjoyment level rises exponentially. 'The Game is the Teacher' ....... and only when the student is ready.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool, Golf and Tennis share similarities concerning the hips

Thanks CJ. That turned a light bulb on for me as I had a great coach named Jimmy Ballard that taught me to pinch a golf ball by imagining to smash the golf ball into the ground - that visual worked for me. Unfortunately, not sure how to relate that to my pool game yet but it's a start.

"Clearing the Hips" is something that comes up in golf, tennis and pool. In golf if you don't clear the hips at the top of the back swing you club won't fall into the correct slot and you'll "hit from the top"....or they call it "casting".....the effect is a slice in most cases. The hips are a great power source, however, because of how our body's are shaped they also get in the way....professional athletes learn ways to alleviate this issue, but it does take time and specific training to achieve....it's not "natural" for sure.

In pool you must have a system to "Clear the Hips" or you can't get into the right position to see the shot properly (so you have to tilt your head to the left and it distorts your natural line of sight). If you use the side of the right hip to match up the line of the shot visually it doesn't work and you have to make unnecessary adjustments....that cause more adjustments...this takes up valuable "mental horsepower" on each shot and although a player may learn to still play well, they will never reach their full potential.

Willie Mosconi is the first one I saw that taught this (in one of his original videos), but left out the crucial part of the movement, the part that's the most difficult to teach. He, like most champion players either learned it, or stumbled on it from playing thousands of hours with other champions......we do learn things unconsciously when competing regularly for money

I completely understand why he made no attempt to teach this, and quite frankly it's the most difficult part to learn (and teach).....I watch to see how players execute this part of the pre shot routine and if they don't do it correctly I immediately know they're limited in how well they can play......it's about the feet (foundation) and it's also about the clearing of the hips at the right moment, in the correct way. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[yankee817299]

I must say CJ, the push drill is really working well. This drill removes the ability to make any type of adjustment while down on the shot. All of the alignment is done above the shot, then the "push", done with the "loaded" wrists or hammer stroke sends the ball in a perfectly straight line off the cue tip. This drill will tell you immediately whether or not you are on the correct shot line.

I have been walking around the table and "pushing" balls in for a couple of days now and everything that you have been working with me has fell into place. The trickiest part has been getting my hips out of the way. This move was slightly awkward for an hour or so, but now everything feels in tune. Pool most certainly is a game of "feel", from the feet, through the body, right to the tip stroking through the cue ball.

Your ability to see such slight misalignments in someone's stance or stroke is amazing. Just know that your input here on this forum is appreciated by most.

 

[One Pocket John]

yankee817299

The challenges that require many hundreds of balls in this drill is:

1. From the standing position align the right shoulder (if right handed) elbow a point on your grip hand, the tip of the cue and some part of your right foot all lined up on the shot line.

2. Focusing on just pushing the cue straight out in front of you to your end of stroke with your wrist breaking down toward the cloth. Imagine that there is an OB (nail) sitting in the pocket with the tip of the cue is the hammer.

3. Keeping the tip in contact with the cue ball for as long as possible. It will feel like the QB is glued to the tip of the cue. What you should also be feeling in your grip hand is a pushing pressure on the side/rear of your hand. The same pressure you might feel if you actually had a hammer in your hand and was hammering a nail.

According to CJ there are two ways of bring the cue forward. You can either pull the cue forward on the stroke or push the cue forward on the stroke.

I use the push method because it makes more sense to me. Its nice to know that there are options.

The action of the hammer grip incorporated with the push drill is very effective. Do this drill at least 30 times everyday or before you begin to play. What this will do is to change the way you push object balls where you want them to go.
Watch the pros, they are pushing the balls, not hitting them.

This is stuff is very hard to put into words. Its best if it is demonstrated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTabuqWIZc

Have fun

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

It's my opinion that the wrist-down position you see in many top players' end position, like the SVB pic above, is simply a natural side-effect of an extended follow-through (often accompanied by an elbow drop).

The way I look at it: if you actually uncocked your wrist down, like a downwards swing of a hammer, at the moment of impact, when your forearm is approximately perpendicular to the cue, that motion would slow the forward velocity of the cue, as well as apply a top force to the cue to drive the tip towards the cloth. Neither of those forces seem conducive to an straight, accelerating stroke.

I've got an open mind. I tried the "hammer swing" cock and uncock yesterday for an hour or so, and it did Very Bad Things to my stroke. But when I go back to a very loose, relaxed wrist, and snap through the stroke with more of a forward wrist snap (like the initial cocking of a hammer stroke), then I get back to good results. And when I extend my follow through, my wrist ends up like SVB's without any conscious effort.

This subject interests me a great deal. It'd be super-interesting to see some slow-mo, high-res side videos of CJ's stroke, to determine exactly where that downwards uncocking of the wrist is happening. Sometimes what we feel is happening, and what actually is happening, are two different things.

I hear what you're saying.

For 46 years I have had a loose connection & a longer smooth stroke.

Since going to using TOI, my grip & stroke has evolved to a firmer grip & a more compact stroke.

I think, like you say my old way was a combination of the two along with elbow drop.

Slow mo would be interesting as to the exact timing. Contact time is very short but IMO there is a lot going on during that short time.

Best,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

The wrist is 100 percent a major power (speed) producer. Its the secret ingredient of the short, accurate, get anywhere on the table strokes.

That's a good statement.

In almost all other sports I consider the wrists to be a multiplier of power. Maybe not double, but 1 point something, 1.3, 1.5, etc.

In a cue stroke, it can at times be 100% of the power along with the fingers.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

Getting out of tough positions isn't possible without the ability to quickly and.....

I started practicing the hammer stroke on Thursday this week, and won a local tournament with it today.

It feels weird to me right now, but seems to improve my long shot making.

I'm curious how your progress is coming along. The one thing you want is your hand action to be is a smooth transition from backswing to follow through.

Understanding how the wrists and hands provide power makes it easier to have a smooth, accelerating delivery which makes the game easier to play.

Getting out of tough positions isn't possible without the ability to quickly and precisely move the cue ball around the table.

It does take some practice, but it's well worth it if you want to get the most out of your pool game.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I must say CJ, the push drill is really working well. This drill removes the ability to make any type of adjustment while down on the shot. All of the alignment is done above the shot, then the "push", done with the "loaded" wrists or hammer stroke sends the ball in a perfectly straight line off the cue tip. This drill will tell you immediately whether or not you are on the correct shot line.

I have been walking around the table and "pushing" balls in for a couple of days now and everything that you have been working with me has fell into place. The trickiest part has been getting my hips out of the way. This move was slightly awkward for an hour or so, but now everything feels in tune. Pool most certainly is a game of "feel", from the feet, through the body, right to the tip stroking through the cue ball.

Your ability to see such slight misalignments in someone's stance or stroke is amazing. Just know that your input here on this forum is appreciated by most.

Yankee,

I hope most do appreciate CJ & his input here on AZB.

I for one, certainly appreciate CJ's thick skin & his ability to fade the crap that was launched on him here & still continues to a lesser extent.

I wish I were closer to Dallas or my back would allow me to drive the distance, as I would certainly not mind CJ taking a look at me, but a 60 year old dog might be too old to change all of his hunting style.

Good Luck & Shoot Well with Your New Found Techniques.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

But Gramps, he's a nice Yankee.:wink:

 

[chilli dipper]

Yankee,

I hope most do appreciate CJ & his input here on AZB.

I for one, certainly appreciate CJ's thick skin & his ability to fade the crap that was launched on him here & still continues to a lesser extent.

I wish I were closer to Dallas or my back would allow me to drive the distance, as I would certainly not mind CJ taking a look at me, but a 60 year old dog might be too old to change all of his hunting style.

Good Luck & Shoot Well with Your New Found Techniques.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

But Gramps, he's a nice Yankee.:wink:

Why don't you post a video of yourself playing some snooker and maybe he can give you some tips, simple thing to do if their is a distance issue?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pocket billiards is easy once the fundamentals are mastered,

Yankee,

I hope most do appreciate CJ & his input here on AZB.

I for one, certainly appreciate CJ's thick skin & his ability to fade the crap that was launched on him here & still continues to a lesser extent.

I wish I were closer to Dallas or my back would allow me to drive the distance, as I would certainly not mind CJ taking a look at me, but a 60 year old dog might be too old to change all of his hunting style.

Good Luck & Shoot Well with Your New Found Techniques.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

But Gramps, he's a nice Yankee.:wink:

Learning to teach sometimes is as challenging as learning to play this game to win championships. It's actually easier when you just do it naturally at times, so it's no great mystery why most of the top pros only discuss their techniques in private.

Pocket billiards is easy once the fundamentals are mastered, the most challenging thing is deprogramming players from all the misinformation that's circulating. Without the experience on this forum I would have never "real eyesed" the things that are discussed and considered to be helpful......and the things that are not. It's really confusing to those that don't know the difference.

It's the same way in golf, most of the information is misleading, but how else can they sell all those books and magazines. It seems like this world is all about creating confusion, I guess that's what makes money, but it seems like there's a better way.

The two games (golf and pool) share a lot of similarities, especially the fact that your hands and feet MUST be in the correct position to play consistently. Once a solid playing foundation is established it's satisfying to see someone build their personal style and dynamics in their game.....everyone is different, yet we all must follow a system for success and consistency.

"The difference between the amateur and the professional is the amateur will practice until they can do it right, and a professional will practice until they can't do it wrong".

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

Why don't you post a video of yourself playing some snooker and maybe he can give you some tips, simple thing to do if their is a distance issue?

Thanks for your suggestion.

I don't play Snooker & have not in nearly 40 years.

I was born in New Orleans & live near there now.

The 'ENGLISH' handle refers to hitting the cue ball with spin.

If I was in dire need I might consider your video idea. I'm not. I have been playing quite well for nearly 47 years & as I said at 60 I'm not sure that I want to change the whole set up.

Thanks again for the suggestion & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[yankee817299]

Mr. English,

At age 57 I emptied my cup and started from the beginning with 100% TOI. There were a couple of troubling months in there, but all in all, my billiard play has improved considerably. Of course CJ has done a complete stroke/stance makeover on me. I am very satisfied with the end results. And I cannot even begin to tell you what it is like walking around a billiard table with CJ while he is teaching and explaining. Most incredible pool experience I ever had.

I hope that your folks don't get upset with you for having another conversation with a yankee.....

Take care, and keep posting.

Rick