WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[Banks]

you must follow through to generate speed needed the longer the follow through the faster the speed of cue

That's like saying you need bad brakes to drive a car fast.

Wrist movement does not add any power in my opinion

Anything that creates a faster movement with the same force results in more power. Power is equal to force times speed.. therefor, if you have the same force at higher speed, you have more power.

 

[naji]

I've watched him play in person and on youtube. He uses his biceps to propel the stroke forward just like everybody else does. The subtle wrist move he's talking about maybe will add 10% more power........although his move from being pre-cocked in radial deviation and then suddenly going to ulnar deviation ("hammer motion") doesn't make sense on paper and in my mind (that move makes the stick move backwards).

I think this is just the way he first gripped the stick when he went to that pool hall with his friend. He was blessed with god-given talent/hand-eye coordination, etc and taught himself how to play with this fundamentally wrong technique and had to develop, probably subconsciously early on, these little subtle moves to get more power or whatever.

When he says "I mostly use my triceps", I wonder if he knows what he's saying (triceps make the stick go backwards). But he's a hellava player.

I think this is just the way he first gripped the stick when he went to that pool hall with his friend. He was blessed with god-given talent/hand-eye coordination, etc and taught himself how to play with this fundamentally wrong technique and had to develop, probably subconsciously early on, these little subtle moves to get more power or whatever.


DTL, i do not know you and respectably have to say by you saying the things in red make me believe you lack lots of knowledge of pool. Pool does not require God gifted talent it is purely knowledge, lots of practice, and free conscious sure you need eyes, good hands, and feet. I was stuck with what you said for more than 20 years until i got a table at home and started discovering the secrets/knowledge of this game and i consider myself average. Finally starting being consistent. So please do not say God gifted talent, and subconsciously stuff. Add to that you have close to 5 million pro pool players all over the world.

 

[naji]

That's like saying you need bad brakes to drive a car fast.

i know you do not need much of a follow through for standard shots, and know that tip contacts the CB for fraction of a second, however, the smooth acceleration with the right amount of follow through guarantees that your brain does not issue the command to stop and loose some power prematurely


Anything that creates a faster movement with the same force results in more power. Power is equal to force times speed.. therefor, if you have the same force at higher speed, you have more power.

I agree with your statement, red above, and i am sure you will agree with me that the wrist is not separated from the arm and have same weight and lever length; tell me how can you generate more power.

The only thing that comes to mind is because the loose wrist move few inches forward it lengthen the follow through slightly which is a cause for increased speed and in turn power; i apologize if it was stated like that anywhere else and i missed it. Bottom line increase cuing efficiency

 

[CJ Wiley]

I incorportated most of my other techniques in 1991 and 92 after learning from a guy

Yeah I know CJ I was just trying to keep it simple. Since using your grip and stance advise my cue is delivered straight. I have been using it for about 3 or 4 weeks, just waiting for it to become automatic or maybe letting it become automatic is better wording. I need to get out of the way and let it happen.

Some folks are having a hard time with the hammer stroke.

I cant speak for others and never would but your advise has helped alot.

Thanks for sharing.

John

Yes, changing grips takes at least 3 weeks, it did for me at least. I changed my grip to more of a "tennis grip" when I was 15 years old and a nationally ranked tennis player. I played both games a LOT during the time and kind of "molded" them together.

I incorportated most of my other techniques in 1991 and 92 after learning from a guy that trained snooker champions and Hank Haney, the Golf Instructor(formally with Tiger Woods). My techniques favors a cross between the "open stance" of snooker and more closed stance of pool, only with mine the LEFT foot parallel to the "Line of the Shot" (I don't claim to have invented this :wink.

I use the Left Foot to aim with as stange as that may seem. Without getting "too involved" I'll say I strive to NOT change my upper body angles, so to "cheat the pocket" or favor the "over cut side" of the pocket I'll turn my left foot slightly.

My left foot is indirectly connected to my cue and the "Line of the Shot", so when I turn my left foot it has a "chain reaction" that moves my cue/aim slightly. Therefore if I'm cutting a difficult shot off the end rail to the right, I can point my left foot slightly to the LEFT and know that I'm going to slightly overcut the shot.

This means a lot because then I can play a speed to the shot that gives me the best chance of getting "safe". I've said many times if I'm not going to make the shot I want to BE SURE I over cut it. This is how I do it and it's a effective weapon, responsible for winning many games. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[One Pocket John]

Yes, changing grips takes at least 3 weeks, it did for me at least. I changed my grip to more of a "tennis grip" when I was 15 years old and a nationally ranked tennis player. I played both games a LOT during the time and kind of "molded" them together.

I incorportated most of my other techniques in 1991 and 92 after learning from a guy that trained snooker champions and Hank Haney, the Golf Instructor(formally with Tiger Woods). My techniques favors a cross between the "open stance" of snooker and more closed stance of pool, only with mine the LEFT foot parallel to the "Line of the Shot" (I don't claim to have invented this :wink.

I use the Left Foot to aim with as stange as that may seem. Without getting "too involved" I'll say I strive to NOT change my upper body angles, so to "cheat the pocket" or favor the "over cut side" of the pocket I'll turn my left foot slightly.

My left foot is indirectly connected to my cue and the "Line of the Shot", so when I turn my left foot it has a "chain reaction" that moves my cue/aim slightly. Therefore if I'm cutting a difficult shot off the end rail to the right, I can point my left foot slightly to the LEFT and know that I'm going to slightly overcut the shot.

This means a lot because then I can play a speed to the shot that gives me the best chance of getting "safe". I've said many times if I'm not going to make the shot I want to BE SURE I over cut it. This is how I do it and it's a effective weapon, responsible for winning many games. 'The Game is the Teacher'

This is going to come in handy.

Thanks

John

 

[DTL]

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[Pay Up Sucker]

I didn't put those words in red.....maybe you did. Look back at this original post.......no red, buddy.

Anyway about not being knowledgable about pool, I'm not a pro but am a 100 ball runner in 14.1, 7 pack in 9-ball, and finished 13th in the US Open and 11th at the 9Ball DCC.

Most of the elite players were very good in their mid teens. I don't know if its god given talent or what......but its something special.

You recently posted on a QUOTE by "BANKS" with red letters in it........but his original post had no red in it. Hmmm, interesting.

He is highlighting what he agrees with in red...no biggy

 

[DTL]

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[CJ Wiley]

no two players play alike, look alike, stroke alike, they do have things in common

He is adding his opinion in the red letters and saying that is what he agrees with and letting you know about it...no biggy

Everyone has a different opinion about everything and that's just a common theme in life. I have had many mentors and learned something from all of them. However, none of them play my style and none of them play each other's style. That's what I see as a universal law about pool, everyone has their own style of doing things. I wish every top player would do as I have done (even though I can understand why they don't) and describe what they do in their own words.

I would learn something from all of them and some of it would never apply directly to me. I would still "put it on a shelf" and not throw it away, because you never know when it may actually come up. If not with me, then with someone else.

That's just using "wisdom" and not judging things to be "good or bad" until I try it on for size. I've tried MANY methods before I developed my game. I used to practice with Buddy Hall and I wanted to copy his stroke, but I couldn't.

Now I "Real Eyes" that NO ONE CAN, and everyone has a different style. You can go to a major tournament and no two players play alike, look alike, stroke alike, however, they do have things in common. They know how to win and have developed a game that they "can't do it wrong" under pressure.

When it comes down to it, that's the most important thing I've faced - Will it hold up under pressure where you can win a league match, a local tournament or a major Championship? This is much easier said than done. imho 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[DTL]

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[CJ Wiley]

I hope no one hurt themselves trying this "at home"

Yeah I know CJ I was just trying to keep it simple. Since using your grip and stance advise my cue is delivered straight. I have been using it for about 3 or 4 weeks, just waiting for it to become automatic or maybe letting it become automatic is better wording. I need to get out of the way and let it happen.

Some folks are having a hard time with the hammer stroke.

I cant speak for others and never would but your advise has helped alot.

Thanks for sharing.

John

It's funny, I've had so much success when showing people the "hammer" analogy in person, but it certaily lost a LOT in the translation from words to minds. We all have a different perception and when I say a "hammer wrist action" and also say it doesn't effect the angle of the cue AND you can't see me doing it.

Well, I just presumed everyone would know it was in no way a "snapping" or even noticeable movement. It's just the way my hand and fingers "leverage the cue" and it give me tremendous power with minimal effort. I was ask for YEARS how I did it and I never would talk about it, and now I feel better to finally at least "get it out".

I hope no one hurt themselves trying this "at home". :groucho: Remember the beginning of this post I said there are 3 main "themes" of how the wrist moves in the pool stroke? Many don't move, others move up and mine moves down. I make sure mine moves down because I cock it up and keep it cocked to begin with.

"Different strokes for different folks". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[naji]

Original reply:

Originally Posted by naji
I think this is just the way he first gripped the stick when he went to that pool hall with his friend. He was blessed with god-given talent/hand-eye coordination, etc and taught himself how to play with this fundamentally wrong technique and had to develop, probably subconsciously early on, these little subtle moves to get more power or whatever.

I didn't put those words in red.....maybe you did. Look back at this original post.......no red, buddy.

Anyway about not being knowledgable about pool, I'm not a pro but am a 100 ball runner in 14.1, 7 pack in 9-ball, and finished 13th in the US Open and 11th at the 9Ball DCC.

Most of the elite players were very good in their mid teens. I don't know if its god given talent or what......but its something special.

You recently posted on a QUOTE by "BANKS" with red letters in it........but his original post had no red in it. Hmmm, interesting.

Ok DTL, i have them on red, i highlighted your text you said earlier that i disagree 100% with again it is below:

He was blessed with god-given talent/hand-eye coordination. and probably subconsciously early on


I know you are a good shooter, no doubt, but like me i used to shoot for 20 years do not know why i miss, all i know is how to shoot it in the hole, some times i make it sometimes i miss. But after more than 30 years i know why i miss if i did..It is not God, it is knowledge and lots of hours behind the cue, and Dr. Dave site, and every word related to pool on the net, i tied the knot, it is not easy, but finally i am there what a journey.

 

[CJ Wiley]

So are you going to tell us who you are?

13th in the US Open and 11th at the 9Ball DCC.


So are you going to tell us who you are?

 

[Mikjary]

You can't PULL the cue during a forward stroke. You PULL the stick BACK with the triceps. You PUSH the cue forward, never PULL it through.....I like to call it a stroke vs a push.

Everyone on the planet pushes the cue forward.....the biceps contract (push) and the triceps relax.

Some people appear to be pushing the cue (vs "stroking") due to their grip hand being placed very forward on the cue gripping area (CJ)......I told CJ this in my original post of this thread (looks like he's pushing the cue). This is because their way past 90 degrees (upper arm/forearm) when they get to tip contact with the CB. What usually happens then is lots of elbow drop which brings in deltoid muscles of the shoulder and maybe some pectoralis muscles in the upper chest. And thats OK, lots of people play very good like that........Luther Lassiter had a similar style.

I think it's more how you look at the stroke that describes pushing or pulling. In a pure demonstration of moving the cue forward, it can be considered to be behind the biceps and and be pulled forward. At the same time it is pushed ahead of the biceps.

CJ's technique incorporates the idea of pushing through the cue ball. If I try to smoothly stroke the ball with the feeling of stroking by dragging or pulling the cue, I don't get the same reaction from the cue ball. If I stroke with the idea of going through the cue ball and firming the stroke, the cue ball squirt is easier to control.

I didn't realize the subtlety of the grip and stroke until I practiced with it for a couple of weeks. Any traditional player would scratch their head with the idea of reversing the way they would normally stroke.

It indeed feels like a push and can be elusive to pin down without an effort to understand by participation. We want to microwave everything and subject it to video. Learning by doing has become too much work. If you can't get immediate results, it's probably not worth the effort.

Exploring the kinematics presented here has been helpful to further the discussions. Some would use it to discredit the technique in order to save themselves the trouble of doing the work. Thanks for taking the time to try to move the discussion along and find a common ground between the feel world and the real world.

Best,
Mike

 

[DTL]

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[CJ Wiley]

Name doesn't ring a bell, are you from the USA?

Duke Laha.......some people know my as Ty Laha.

Name doesn't ring a bell, are you from the USA?

Derby City Classic 9-Ball Division 2003 www.diamondbilliards.com
Venue: Executive West Hotel January, 11, 2003

P#: Name: WPR: $W:
59th Ty Laha 801 150


PBT - Accumulation Feb. 1997 www.internationalpooltour.com
Venue: Professional Febuary, 28, 1997

Name: WPR: GW: GL: BP: F: EM:
Ty Laha 532 22 30 202 34 55


US Open 9Ball Championships 2000 www.usopen9ballchampionships.com
Venue: Chesapeake Convention Center September, 24, 2000

P#: Name: WPR: $W:
49th Ty Laha 801 750


US Open 9Ball Championships 2001 www.usopen9ballchampionships.com
Venue: Chesapeake Convention Center September, 16, 2001

P#: Name: WPR: $W:
13th Ty Laha 801 2100


Planet-Pool.com - Tour Stop 11 Men's Division 2000
Venue: Shooters August, 27, 2000

P#: Name: WPR: $W:
7th Ty Laha 801 50

 

[DTL]

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[madmiller]

My game slowly is getting better, using CJ's advice and his "hammer wrist" action. Had a chance to play today for a few hours and the guy that I was playing, an A player with over 40 years of experience, got pissed off and gave up, unscrewed his cue and left. Just because I was beating him almost every game. I think we played over 50 8 ball games and he only won a handful of them. Prior to that it was always the other way around when we played each other. Well, he's an A player with a lot of years behind his belt, and I only started playing pool a couple of years ago.
I can notice now that my stroke got a lot better in those few weeks that I started using CJ's technique. If I see the ball, no matter how tough the shot is, I don't miss. I only lose when I beat myself, usually by poorly judging speed of the shot or by rushing my shots.
When my playing buddy left, I started practicing different shots and all the guys in the room couldn't believe it when I made a 90 degree cut shot 6 times out of 10 tries( the object ball is frozen to the middle diamond on the short rail , the cue ball is on the spot and I cut it in the corner)
I never even dreamed of making that shot before, even close.
I got so inspired so I wanna practice more, too bad I can't at the moment.
But now I believe that it's possible for me to become an A player myself.
That's my short-time goal!:wink:

 

[AtLarge]

... I believe that it's possible for me to become an A player myself. ...

If you really beat a legitimate A player all but a handful of games out of more than 50 games of 8-ball, and you made the most difficult long straight-in shot 87 times in a row, then ...

perhaps you already are!

 

[madmiller]

If you really beat a legitimate A player all but a handful of games out of more than 50 games of 8-ball, and you made the most difficult long straight-in shot 87 times in a row, then ...

perhaps you already are!

I wish I were!:grin: My position play, even though a lot better now, but still lacking a lot. Speed control is improving, but I overshoot or undershoot a lot of balls( I mean leaving the cue ball either too far from where I intent, or too close)
My consistency is getting better, but still not there. When left "locked out" safe, I usually win by making some crazy shots, that normally no one would even try to make. And I noticed today, when I was playing my buddy, that his facial expression changed any time when I made a tough cut or a long tough shot where the cue ball was frozen to the rail or I had to shoot over a ball. After a while I realized that he wasn't liking that I made all those shots look easy, like they were straight -in hangers.