WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[dr_dave]

Inside English reduces cut-induced throw in the same way that hitting harder with no English does: the increased speed at the contact point reduces friction.

This is true for thinner cuts, but if it is only a "touch" of inside, it will increase throw for most shots that are fuller than half-ball hits.

Agreed. Inside english reduces the amount of throw at larger cut angles (for the reason DeadStick explained), but it actually increases throw at small cut angles. For more info, see:

"Throw - Part VII: CIT/SIT combo" - BD, February, 2007​

The least amount of throw, and the most throw consistency, occurs with fast inside english shots. That's one advantage of inside english shots; although, these good effects require more than just a "touch" of inside. Also, inside English isn't always the appropriate choice for position play. For more info, see:

inside english resource page​

FYI, throw effects (due to both cut and spin) are explained and demonstrated in this video:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

And much more info can be found here:

summary of all squirt, swerve, and throw effects​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

On 90 degree cut to the corner I hit the cushion first, or at least that's what I think I do. I aim slightly to miss the ball and then the spin transferred from the cb sends the ob in the corner

Picking a coupla nits:

1. The setup you describe makes it even more than 90 degrees - with the object ball on the foot rail and the cue ball on the head spot (both on the middle string), it's more than 91 degrees. With the cue ball on the center spot it's more than 92 degrees. That's why inside spin is needed.

2. It isn't transferred spin that moves the OB; it's the CB's velocity into the OB caused by spinning toward it off the rail.

If people want to see a demonstration of this type of shot, with a detailed explanation, check out this video:

NV B.92 - "Impossible" cut shots, from VEPS V​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The setup you describe makes it even more than 90 degrees - with the object ball on the foot rail and the cue ball on the head spot (both on the middle string), it's more than 91 degrees. With the cue ball on the center spot it's more than 92 degrees. That's why inside spin is needed.

One Question: Is it possible to make this shot with "outside spin"?

Yes, but it is a lot more difficult. Outside english can create an effective cut angle greater than 90 degrees. An example can be found near the end of the following video:

HSV B.33 - Outside English gearing, and cut and spin-induced throw​

More info can be found here:

outside english resource page​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

I've only seen a few players that would even attempt such a feat.

That would be impressive indeed. I've only seen a few players that would even attempt such a feat.

I think their secret was something in the wrist, but I'm not sure. :wink:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The cue ball's velocity AND spin moves the object ball on this shot.

Yes, but not transferred spin. That would mean the OB picked up spin from the CB and that OB spin moved it toward the pocket. It might just be a semantic misstatement.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

This is true for thinner cuts, but if it is only a "touch" of inside, it will increase throw for most shots that are fuller than half-ball hits.

I disagree, inside english always deflect cue ball (unless the shooter is 100% parallel to line of aim- no pivoting) and it is perceived as it reduces the spin induced throw

To be accurate, throw happens if there is stun or close to stun with inside or no inside, or if it is very very slow hit rolling (of which on long OB from pocket it is hardly be slow shot), at harder speed if there is no stun there will be no throw with inside, only cue deflection, therefore to guarantee no stun and no deflection hit the shot with rolling follow center CB a bit hard it will go in pocket 100% straight, unless ball is dirty.

I bet Dr. Dave agrees here..

I'm not sure I agree with your first paragraph, because it is not clear to me what you mean. Inside english does create squirt (cue ball deflection) just like any sidespin shot. However, inside english does increase the amount of object-ball throw with small cut-angle shots and decrease the amount of throw with larger cut-angle shots. With inside english, the squirt and throw effects are in opposite directions, and they can cancel on some shots; however, the amount of swerve varies with shot distance, speed, cue elevation, amount of english, and conditions. Also, the amount of throw varies with shot speed, cut angle, amount of top/bottom spin, the amount of sidespin, and conditions. Therefore, things are not so simple.

For people who are not familiar with all of this terminology, here are an illustration and some demonstrations of the effects (for an outside english shot):

NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II
NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

The most cut-induced throw (CIT) occurs with slow stun shots close to a half-ball hit. A slow stun shot produces more throw than a slow rolling shot. Although, a slow stun shot is very difficult to control and isn't used very much. A slow rolling-CB shot doesn't produce as much CIT as a slow stun shot, but these shots are much more common, so people notice the throw more (especially if conditions are clingy). The least CIT occurs with firm follow or draw shots. FYI, all throw effects (backed up by supporting resources) can be found in the numbered list under the videos and illustration here (see items 15-36):

squirt, swerve, and throw effects​

Regards,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

Yes, but not transferred spin. That would mean the OB picked up spin from the CB and that OB spin moved it toward the pocket. It might just be a semantic misstatement.

pj
chgo

It's ok, I'll let you "slide" on that one. :wink:

 

[Bob Jewett]

Don't you hit the ball and cushion at the same time?

It depends on what you mean by "at the same time". On the vast majority of frozen-on-the-cushion shots the cue ball must first strike the cushion and still be in the cushion when it strikes the object ball. This is easy to demonstrate, and is confirmed by both theory (physics) and simple experiments.

I know that lots of instructional material -- including Mosconi's book -- says to make a simultaneous hit, but all of those sources turn out to be wrong. The most complete study of the shot is described in Jack Koehler's first book. http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Science_of_Pocket_Billiards.html?id=AdDtAAAAMAAJ

My first column for Billiards Digest described an experiment in which readers could decide for themselves the truth of the matter.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It might just be a semantic misstatement.

pj
chgo

CJ:
It's ok, I'll let you "slide" on that one.

I appreciate that, even though it wasn't my misstatement.

pj
chgo

 

[TheThaiger]

It depends on what you mean by "at the same time". On the vast majority of frozen-on-the-cushion shots the cue ball must first strike the cushion and still be in the cushion when it strikes the object ball. This is easy to demonstrate, and is confirmed by both theory (physics) and simple experiments.

I know that lots of instructional material -- including Mosconi's book -- says to make a simultaneous hit, but all of those sources turn out to be wrong. The most complete study of the shot is described in Jack Koehler's first book. http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Science_of_Pocket_Billiards.html?id=AdDtAAAAMAAJ

My first column for Billiards Digest described an experiment in which readers could decide for themselves the truth of the matter.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say they're "wrong"?

Also, doesn't the cushion itself play a part, in terms of make, age, condition, how it's cut, whether it's snooker or pool etc?

 

[sfleinen]

Agreed. Inside english reduces the amount of throw at larger cut angles (for the reason DeadStick explained), but it actually increases throw at small cut angles. For more info, see:

"Throw - Part VII: CIT/SIT combo" - BD, February, 2007​

The least amount of throw, and the most throw consistency, occurs with fast inside english shots. That's one advantage of inside english shots; although, these good effects require more than just a "touch" of inside. Also, inside English isn't always the appropriate choice for position play. For more info, see:

inside english resource page​

FYI, throw effects (due to both cut and spin) are explained and demonstrated in this video:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

And much more info can be found here:

summary of all squirt, swerve, and throw effects​

Regards,
Dave

Dave:

I agree (especially with bolded part above). In fact, in most cases, I like to use a decent amount (a tip or so, depending on the angle) of inside english on the standard 14.1 side-of-the-pack break shot (i.e. where the object ball [15th ball] is immediately to the side of the racked 14 balls, and the cue ball is in the vicinity of the middle of the table, with a nice angle into the rack).

In this shot (which I learned from John Schmidt), I hit this break shot with INSIDE DRAW -- pocketing the object ball into the corner pocket -- and having the cue ball hit the rack, spin over to the long rail, and back out to the middle of the table.

The throw effects of inside english, to me, are very predictable -- more so than using outside english (where you have to worry whether you're above, equal to, or below the "gearing" effect, as shown in your video).

Additionally, I like inside english's ability to put "pocketing english" on balls cut down the rail -- i.e. if the object ball hits the chiseled face of the pocket, the gentle spin spins it into (not resist) the pocket.

Good stuff,
-Sean

 

[dr_dave]

It depends on what you mean by "at the same time". On the vast majority of frozen-on-the-cushion shots the cue ball must first strike the cushion and still be in the cushion when it strikes the object ball. This is easy to demonstrate, and is confirmed by both theory (physics) and simple experiments.

I know that lots of instructional material -- including Mosconi's book -- says to make a simultaneous hit, but all of those sources turn out to be wrong. The most complete study of the shot is described in Jack Koehler's first book. http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Science_of_Pocket_Billiards.html?id=AdDtAAAAMAAJ

My first column for Billiards Digest described an experiment in which readers could decide for themselves the truth of the matter.

FYI, there are several videos and illustrations covering this topic fairly well here:

rail cut shot resource page​

Also, for people who have a copy of my book ("The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards"), this topic is described and illustrated in detail in Section 4.06.

The following super-slow-motion videos show the physics of what happens in various situations:

HSV A.128 - Rail cut-shot hitting the ball first, with fast speed, slight draw, outside English
HSV A.129 - Rail cut-shot hitting the ball first early with OE
HSV A.130 - Rail cut-shot hitting the ball first, with more-than-gearing outside English
HSV A.131 - Rail cut-shot hitting the ball first, with less-than-gearing outside English
HSV A.132 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first, with natural (running) English
HSV A.133 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first a little early, faster, with natural (running) English
HSV A.134 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first, hitting the ball while compressing, with stun and no English
HSV A.135 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first, hitting the ball during rebound, fast, with slight natural (running) English
HSV A.136 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first, hitting the ball at maximum compression, very fast, with slight natural (running) English
HSV A.137 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first, hitting the ball while compressing, fast, with draw and natural (running) English
HSV A.138 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first, hitting the ball at maximum compression, with lots of natural (running) English
HSV A.139 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first, hitting the ball while compressing, with natural (running) English
HSV A.140 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first (barely), hitting the ball during initial compression, with lots of natural (running) English
HSV A.141 - Rail cut-shot hitting the rail first (barely), hitting the ball during initial compression, slower, with stun and lots of natural (running) English​

The clips are listed in order based on how far down-table the cue ball travels. The object ball is pocketed in all of the clips from two diamonds above the corner pocket.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Mikjary]

Dave:

I agree (especially with bolded part above). In fact, in most cases, I like to use a decent amount (a tip or so, depending on the angle) of inside english on the standard 14.1 side-of-the-pack break shot (i.e. where the object ball [15th ball] is immediately to the side of the racked 14 balls, and the cue ball is in the vicinity of the middle of the table, with a nice angle into the rack).

In this shot (which I learned from John Schmidt), I hit this break shot with INSIDE DRAW -- pocketing the object ball into the corner pocket -- and having the cue ball hit the rack, spin over to the long rail, and back out to the middle of the table.

The throw effects of inside english, to me, are very predictable -- more so than using outside english (where you have to worry whether you're above, equal to, or below the "gearing" effect, as shown in your video).

Additionally, I like inside english's ability to put "pocketing english" on balls cut down the rail -- i.e. if the object ball hits the chiseled face of the pocket, the gentle spin spins it into (not resist) the pocket.

Good stuff,
-Sean

Good post! It's very important to not get trapped under or in the rack on the break shot. Dallas West said to use some spin when you go into the rack to avoid being stuck in a cluster.

Best,
Mike

 

[sfleinen]

Good post! It's very important to not get trapped under or in the rack on the break shot. Dallas West said to use some spin when you go into the rack to avoid being stuck in a cluster.

Best,
Mike

"Good post" -- but with the red thumbs-down icon in the header? <elbow-nudge> <elbow-nudge>

Willie (Mosconi) also used a lot of spin when going into the rack, and advised to almost never use a "dead ball" (i.e. stun) when doing so. Otherwise, you'll find yourself frozen to a ball with no subsequent shot.

The trick is knowing *what kind* of spin, depending on the angle into the rack, and what ball you're going to hit in the rack. This is especially so when using a behind-the-rack break shot (my favorite, btw):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2iaEWtZOPSY#t=4m7s

-Sean

 

[Mikjary]

"Good post" -- but with the red thumbs-down icon in the header? <elbow-nudge> <elbow-nudge>

Willie (Mosconi) also used a lot of spin when going into the rack, and advised to almost never use a "dead ball" (i.e. stun) when doing so. Otherwise, you'll find yourself frozen to a ball with no subsequent shot.

The trick is knowing *what kind* of spin, depending on the angle into the rack, and what ball you're going to hit in the rack. This is especially so when using a behind-the-rack break shot (my favorite, btw):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2iaEWtZOPSY#t=4m7s

-Sean

How did that get there? lol!!! That was totally a mistake, Sean! I don't know if I can edit it out, but I will add a disclaimer if I can't. :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[sfleinen]

How did that get there? lol!!! That was totally a mistake, Sean! I don't know if I can edit it out, but I will add a disclaimer if I can't. :grin:

Best,
Mike

Use "Advanced" edit, Mike. It will allow you to modify the header and the icon.

No prob, though -- it was obviously inadvertent.

-Sean

 

[Mikjary]

Use "Advanced" edit, Mike. It will allow you to modify the header and the icon.

No prob, though -- it was obviously inadvertent.

-Sean

There you go, bud! Schizo fingers!

The same idea of getting back to the middle of the table from behind the rack if possible is a strong move. Nothing worse than getting shoved back down under the rack with nothing on the short rails. That's when you get the off angle, long cut down the table or pray for a duck in the side! :grin: And if it's a really good day you get a cherry out of the pack!

Back on topic. When I use a touch of inside, I lessen the clingy effects when I go into traffic. The cue ball wants to get away from other balls. Kinda' like me and the ex.

On a side note, but back on the OP's topic, the more I use the locked wrist, the more I seem to naturally break my wrist forward. I watched my stroke last night on video and I saw forward movement which wasn't there last week, I think. My stroke was totally a wrist snap forward previously, but now it's not. It's the opposite and I can still get some jizz on the cue ball. Who knew? This is uncharted territory for me.

I'm gonna play in comp this weekend, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. Good or bad, it'll be fun!:smile:

Best,
Mike

 

[naji]

I'm not sure I agree with your first paragraph, because it is not clear to me what you mean. Inside english does create squirt (cue ball deflection) just like any sidespin shot. However, inside english does increase the amount of object-ball throw with small cut-angle shots and decrease the amount of throw with larger cut-angle shots. With inside english, the squirt and throw effects are in opposite directions, and they can cancel on some shots; however, the amount of swerve varies with shot distance, speed, cue elevation, amount of english, and conditions. Also, the amount of throw varies with shot speed, cut angle, amount of top/bottom spin, the amount of sidespin, and conditions. Therefore, things are not so simple.
Dave

I am having hard time agreeing with above i marked in red, i have, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 mm tip shafts, i used all for thin cuts and 1/2 ball cuts using rolling inside english medium speed, clean balls, 100% level shaft my finding with the 9 mm, 10, and 11 mm shaft i have no throw, when i slowed the speed i started seeing the throw (under cut). When using 12 and 13 mm tips i started seeing more cue deflection and noticeable over cutting of the ob an indication of cue deflection.
Similarly with outside english same results
But when i stun or slow role i do see much increase in throw.
I know my stroke is 100% straight, i shoot straight shots all the time and right on the money, i use laser beem to judge my stroke..
My 2 cents.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Bob:
I know that lots of instructional material -- including Mosconi's book -- says to make a simultaneous hit, but all of those sources turn out to be wrong.

TheThaiger:
Can you clarify what you mean when you say they're "wrong"?

Hitting the OB and cushion simultaneously means you're not compensating for collision-induced throw (unless you use just the right amount of outside english). Collision-induced throw drives the OB into the cushion so it rebounds away.

To see this, freeze two OBs together so they're both frozen to the rail a couple of diamonds from the pocket, then shoot the combo shot with the CB at an angle (not also on the rail). You won't be able to make the shot.

Then try the same shot again, but put a little spit at the contact point between the OBs (to eliminate friction there) - now the shot goes.

Because of throw you need to aim a rail-frozen cut shot as if the rail isn't there - which means slightly overcutting without sidespin. This is often "learned" subconsciously, so we don't really know we're doing it.

Also, doesn't the cushion itself play a part, in terms of make, age, condition, how it's cut, whether it's snooker or pool etc?

Different cushions wouldn't change the basic effect of throw.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

naji:
i have, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 mm tip shafts, i used all for thin cuts and 1/2 ball cuts using rolling inside english medium speed, clean balls, 100% level shaft my finding with the 9 mm, 10, and 11 mm shaft i have no throw, when i slowed the speed i started seeing the throw (under cut).

Shaft size and CB deflection have nothing to do with throw. Shaft size does affect CB deflection, but CB deflection only affects where the CB goes, not how it interacts with the OB when it gets there.

pj
chgo

pj
chgo