WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[CJ Wiley]

I'm still not sure why, as a human being, it's so difficult to commit to something

Mr. Wiley,
Lately Ive done more reading here that I normally do because it winter and Im inside more mainly I scan the subject being talked about and occasionally latch onto one.

Im glad I started reading the TOI.... stuff, Today I stopped to hit balls, do some banks and just let my stroke out and I remembered TOI....

I always play my ball at the side of the pocket, I can miss the pocket point and have a little more room to work with if I cut too wide and today I did that with Toi.....I really like the way the cue ball floats when you do it right.....yeah I might have to learn to wrap my mind around using it but it sure it worth it....one hour long session sure made me a believer.....

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

I think this is a great way to learn the TOI method, just do it, experience it and appreciate how much easier it makes the game. The way the cue ball starts "floating" after contact is something that develops your "Touch" to a much higher level. Using spin actually takes away from the true "feel for the game." It's almost like it "dilutes" or "waters down" the experience.

When I came back and started playing again (after an 8 years) the game seemed complicated and much more difficult than it "used to be."
My first tournament in 9 years was the US OPEN and, even though my confidence wasn't near 100% I managed a 9th place finish.

It was still possible for me to win against World Class players, however, something was missing. I would listen to strories of "how I used to play," and honestly it was hard to believe I was "that guy," that could go hours without missing on "triple shimmed" equipment. I wasn't "that guy," because that guy had this complicated game reduced to just 2 key thoughts, and one of them was TOI and the other was "accelerate!'

Of course I knew about the "Touch" of Inside, and I also remembered that I always had to make myself use TOI (this technique doesn't happen just "by accident) when I really wanted to play at a high level.

I'm still not sure why, as a human being, it's so difficult to commit to something, knowing for sure it is benefitial. It's just a relief to commit to it again and be able to "not just play the game," to be able to connect to the Game.

 

[One Pocket John]

CJ,

I'm heading to the hall tommorrow to give it 3 hours. So I just want to clarify what you actually do.

When aiming a cut, where the center hit on the CB would be aiming at the right edge of the OB, to send the OB into the 'fuller hit' side of the pocket, where do you aim your cue stick with the TOI?

1. slightly inside but still parallel to the center hit cue line

2. from slightly inside but still aimed at the right edge of the OB (hence adding a bit of cut)

3. something different

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

Best Regards,

Rick, you are in for a real shocker.

Like you I have always used "helping spin" to pocket a ball.

I have probably 6 hours of practice time using TOI and I'm really surprised at the results.

You may have a rough time at first but stay with it. It works well.

CJ hasnt answered your question yet so I'll tell you what I'm finding.
In the standing position I am lining up the left side of my cue shaft for shots to the left with the cue tip just off left center of the QB and visa versa on shots to the right. When coming down on the shot the cue is already a hair off center.

You have said that you play at a high level, I'm a "B" player so anything you can add to the above during your practrice please do.

A couple of points. 1. You may find that your focused more on the cue ball than the shot. This will pass over time. 2. Believe it or not the QB will seem to float to your next shot rather than forced.

What I'm working on is to let the TOI come naturally without having to think about it. Oh yeah, dont forget to feel that your throwing the OB into the pocket, like throwing a ball into a bucket or a dart into a dart board.

Have fun.

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks John,

If you're still there, are U aiming parallel to the normal cue stick line or are you aimng at the normal contact point on the OB but from a TOUCH from the inside?

Thanks again,

 

[One Pocket John]

Parallel.

The left or right side of my tip is just off center of the QB.

Reread your post. I use the stick to aim at the OB contact point and shoot thru the QB like its a ghost ball. Like its not there.

Have a good time


John

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks John,

I may try both ways. Who knows. Maybe I just invented the FTI by RJ.
(From The Inside):wink:

Best Regards,

 

[One Pocket John]

Well Rick its 7:30 pm in St. Louis, how did your practice session go?

John

 

[CJ Wiley]

Keep it simple, it's best to "build" and "expand" on what you already know and use

Thanks John,

If you're still there, are U aiming parallel to the normal cue stick line or are you aimng at the normal contact point on the OB but from a TOUCH from the inside?

Thanks again,

There is an automatic aiming component with the Touch of Inside, however, I really want to "show it," not try to write about it. For now, not knowing how you line up I would recommend you just aim at the "undercut side" of the pocket by using the system you currently use.

Aiming at the "contact points" is ok to use if that's the way you've always done it. The issue with the "contact point aiming" is that it has an illusion and is not "straight forward," (or everyone would use it ). If you aim the center of the cue ball at the contact point it's going to undercut the shot. When you move to a Touch of Inside it will automatically over cut the shot, so this combination of factors may work ok for you.

 

[CJ Wiley]

you can narrow everything you're doing down to a few anchored words

Rick, you are in for a real shocker.

Like you I have always used "helping spin" to pocket a ball.

I have probably 6 hours of practice time using TOI and I'm really surprised at the results.

You may have a rough time at first but stay with it. It works well.

CJ hasnt answered your question yet so I'll tell you what I'm finding.
In the standing position I am lining up the left side of my cue shaft for shots to the left with the cue tip just off left center of the QB and visa versa on shots to the right. When coming down on the shot the cue is already a hair off center.

You have said that you play at a high level, I'm a "B" player so anything you can add to the above during your practrice please do.

A couple of points. 1. You may find that your focused more on the cue ball than the shot. This will pass over time. 2. Believe it or not the QB will seem to float to your next shot rather than forced.

What I'm working on is to let the TOI come naturally without having to think about it. Oh yeah, dont forget to feel that your throwing the OB into the pocket, like throwing a ball into a bucket or a dart into a dart board.

Have fun.

John

I don't think the outome should be to have TOI "come naturally." No matter what level you reach in pocket billiards you will always need some key thoughts. These Key thoughts are actually condensed down from many factors that make up your own pool game.

The problem I see quite a bit is having too many thoughts. When I'm playing at the highest level I want to have only two, maybe three key thoughts. The Game is just too difficult to just play "naturally" and automatically UNLESS you can narrow everything you're doing down to a few anchored words.

As they say "this is easier said than done," however with the TOI you will be on that path.

 

[EagleMan]

Just a passing comment as I wander through:

The real margin of error for any shot is a fixed physical thing dictated by the size of the ball and pocket, and can't be physically increased by a shooting technique. You can increase your accuracy and consistency, which will give the same result (fewer misses) but it's not quite the same thing.

Please carry on.

pj
chgo

It is possible that I am misunderstanding the meaning of your comment to the effect that the "margin of error for any shot is a fixed physical thing dictated by the size of the ball and pocket, and can't be physically increased by a shooting technique."

Let me apologize in advance if I am not reading your comment correctly...but if I am, I have a nit pick.

Say you're shoot an OB down the long rail to a corner pocket. The OB starts out fairly near the rail. The SPEED of the shot can dramatically lengthen the distance from the pocket that the OB first contacts the cushion...i.e. up to a point, the slower the OB is rolling the farther up table from the intended pocket the OB can contact the cushion and still go in.*

Since "speed" must be considered a "shooting technique" wouldn't you agree that speed can and does increase/decrease the margin of error independent of ball and pocket size?

Similarly, speed has a major effect on whether an OB will "rattle" in a corner pocket and not go in or "point out" on an angled side pocket shot. (An OB can be FORCED through a point if hit hard enough and if approaching the side pocket from a relatively small angle)

In both cases, making or missing is dependant upon speed and entirely independent of ball/pocket size.

(-:

EagleMan

*Variables such as the livliness of the cushion (or lack thereof) and spin...if any...imparted to the OB would combine to increase/decrease the uptable distance. But undoubtedly, an OB can be directed to a point uptable on the cushion which...if there were no cushion...the OB would miss the pocket by quite a lot.

 

[ENGLISH!]

My 1st. 'full' time with TOI

Okay,

This is not going to be easy. I gave it a full 3.5 hours of 'practice' & then another 3 hours of play/competition playing 'mixed' (TOI & 'MY Way') on a shimmed 9 foot table with Simonis cloth. ( 4 1/8 to 4 1/4" pockets)

Firstly, everything CJ has said about it, the TOI, is true. It is an awesome technigue for pocketing balls (if you accelerate). The CB does 'kill' & 'float'. You do start to see 'possibilities' that you did not consider before.

Now...the problem for me, was position. Since you must accelerate for it to work, it was difficult, for me, to control the speed of the CB. It always seemed to 'float' too far or...not far enough. However it does not matter that much because... you can make almost any shot that you are left with even if it is not the one you wanted. It was a bit frustrating, for me, since I am so use to getting very good & easy position for my next shot.

It is DEFINITELY a tool in my tool box & may very well become my predominant shot once (if) I get a 'feel' for the different ways to get better position with it. (more rails)

Also I did find that while it certainly can work with my normal looser grip & more full & fluid stroke, it seemed to work better with a more firm grip & compact stroke. It almost makes you want to firm up & shorten up.

I don't know what else to say, except that it did not take that long to 'real eyes' that the TOI is a formidable technique very well worth considering making my main shooting mechanism. That being said from one who has been pocketing balls with spin & fineese for position sake for 46 years.

Thanks CJ. This has been the most 'difference making' thing that I have learned since I first learned to shoot with inside 'english' almost 46 years ago. I was even able to shoot a straight in shot 'left' & make it go 'right' straight into the pocket.:wink:

The difference is...a totally different perspective, for me. 'Seeing' & using 'deflection'/squirt vs. using swerve & spin.

I don't really know when or if I will be able to make a total transition to TOI because I see the 'easy' position of shots first, since playing that way for 46 years, but I also see the TOI way to pocket balls.

Hopefully, the more I play with the TOI, I will start to see its patterns for position.

Right now...I'm torn between two 'lovers'. I guess I'm still married, but I've met my future mistress.:wink: The question is...can I keep them both happy & me along with them.:wink:

Best Regards,

 

[EagleMan]

I thought the "Left" side* was the literal side?:wink:

One thing that I've been trying to explain and it's very challenging "you must form a relationship between your hand and your tip". The "hammer drill" is something that I've used with success to teach how the hand/wrist/fingers move the cue and deliver "energy" to the tip.

This is a force that transfers through the tip into the cue ball. So the wrist/hand/fingers effect the tip whether you're aware of it or not. I recommend being aware of it and seeking to strengthen the relationship and direct effect that your hand has on the tip THROUGH the pool cue.

I know this is a round about way to answer your question, and I think you can understand it's easy for me to show and difficult for me to explain. Connecting your hand and tip is ESSENTIAL to at least explore.

So with that said, hit some balls with your cue angled so the tip is BELOW center and use your hand/wrist/fingers to make the top edge of your cue go up (using your shooting hand/fingers) to produce topspin on the cue ball.

Think in terms of putting topspin on a basketball by hitting up on it BELOW it's center. You wouldn't hit the basketball HIGH on the ball to produce maximum topspin you would "brush up on the ball", LOW to HIGH.

Please don't take this literally, I'm just trying to give you a visual analogy to help "get the idea" of using the top of the tip to generate topspin (high english). If that doesn't make sense I'll try in another way later tonight, for now I have to go play a game myself.

*

I haven't slogged all the way through this thread as yet so feel free to bust my chops if this has already been discussed prior to this post.

I GET your point that IF the cue tip can be made to stay in contact with the CB for a sufficient time to proceed from a point at which the upper portion of the tip is in contact with the CB below its center and then MOVES UP the surface of the CB (such that the bottom half of the tip would then be in contact with the CB) THEN you could get the same "low to high" method of imparting spin on a basketball or tennis ball.

But it seems to me that is a BIG IF.

A tennis racket, for example, compresses and rebounds (trampoline effect if you will) such that the tennis ball remains in contact with the racket strings for the entire time that the strings are compressing and rebounding. (when the strings return to their original "flat" position, the ball is still compressed...I THINK...and remains in contact with the strings.


It seems to me that the above compression/rebound of BOTH the ball and racket strings is a significantly different set of forces than a cue tip...which I am sure is relatively harder than either a tennis ball or racket strings.

There is a significant possibility that the player who THINKS he/she is "pinning the ball" isn't striking the CB from below center and having the tip remain in contact with the CB until the bottom half of the tip rises up above the original centerline...but instead is actually making initial contact with the bottom half of the tip to a point above the centerline of the CB.

I am NOT saying that is what happens in your case or in the case of others who appear to be skillful enough to "pin" the CB. What I am saying is that I would have to see such shots in super slow-mo to believe that the tip can stay in contact with the RIGID CB (as opposed to the highly flexible tennis racket strings...or the padded skin of one's hand applied to a highly compressible basketball) to believe that the "pin" is actually occurring as you suggest.

All the above presented with the utmost respect for you and your teachings.

(-:

EagleMan

 

[CJ Wiley]

Hitting the cue ball and object ball a hair fuller equates to a different sound

I haven't slogged all the way through this thread as yet so feel free to bust my chops if this has already been discussed prior to this post.

I GET your point that IF the cue tip can be made to stay in contact with the CB for a sufficient time to proceed from a point at which the upper portion of the tip is in contact with the CB below its center and then MOVES UP the surface of the CB (such that the bottom half of the tip would then be in contact with the CB) THEN you could get the same "low to high" method of imparting spin on a basketball or tennis ball.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The analogy of the tennis "topspin" probably isn't a good one unless you play tennis. The tennis stroke used to be a "low to high" stroke to impart topspin and now it's more of a "windshield wiper" stroke utilizing the forearm.

When it comes to pinning the ball it rarely has anything to do with topspin. It's about hitting a precise part of the cue ball with the edge of your tip, and usually that will be the top half{of the tip}. This gets a much more pronounced reaction from the cue ball whether you're using high, or low english.

The main thing is the feedback it provides you in amplifying the touch/feel, the visual reaction of the cue ball AND the sound it makes when it hits the cue ball, then object ball and pocket. The sound the champion players make when playing the game is more pronounced. This is because their tip seems to "dig in" to the cue ball or, as we used to call it "they are Pinning their shots."

If you're not familiar with the word{Pinning} it will not make sense to you like it does me. This is one of the "slang terms" that was mostly used among the "cream of the crop" road players....the ones that always found a way to win. The older hustlers and road players had their own slang language, my blog on AZ. shares many of them. http://forums.azbilliards.com/blog.php?b=310

From my experience "Pinning the Cue ball" was what we {professional road players} did that seperated us from the "short stops." No offense to "short stops," however,their games lacked these dynamic "ball striking" elements that equated to precision ball pocketing and position play.

Amateurs often spin their cue ball more than necessary, especially with "outside english," and their shot speeds vary like songs on a jukebox (you never know what's coming up next ).

I'm a firm believer in controlling your shot speed, position angles, and where you strike the cue ball consistently. Hitting the cue ball and object ball a hair fuller equates to a noticeably different sound, ball reaction and shot quality than a "glancing blow," (caused by using "side spin"). The same rules apply in golf, tennis and in baseball it would be equivelant to a "foul ball"{the glancing blow}.http://forums.azbilliards.com//attachment.php?attachmentid=250124&d=1354227147

 

[CJ Wiley]

how to make your pre shot routine more consistent, thus making shots more consistent

It is possible that I am misunderstanding the meaning of your comment to the effect that the "margin of error for any shot is a fixed physical thing dictated by the size of the ball and pocket, and can't be physically increased by a shooting technique."

Let me apologize in advance if I am not reading your comment correctly...but if I am, I have a nit pick.

Say you're shoot an OB down the long rail to a corner pocket. The OB starts out fairly near the rail. The SPEED of the shot can dramatically lengthen the distance from the pocket that the OB first contacts the cushion...i.e. up to a point, the slower the OB is rolling the farther up table from the intended pocket the OB can contact the cushion and still go in.*

Since "speed" must be considered a "shooting technique" wouldn't you agree that speed can and does increase/decrease the margin of error independent of ball and pocket size?

Similarly, speed has a major effect on whether an OB will "rattle" in a corner pocket and not go in or "point out" on an angled side pocket shot. (An OB can be FORCED through a point if hit hard enough and if approaching the side pocket from a relatively small angle)

In both cases, making or missing is dependant upon speed and entirely independent of ball/pocket size.

(-:

EagleMan

*Variables such as the livliness of the cushion (or lack thereof) and spin...if any...imparted to the OB would combine to increase/decrease the uptable distance. But undoubtedly, an OB can be directed to a point uptable on the cushion which...if there were no cushion...the OB would miss the pocket by quite a lot.

I could easily take the positon that even placing your feet correctly will increase the "margin of error," if we're talking in terms of increasing the chances and probablilty of making the shot. I know this isn't the definition commonly used for "margin of error{in statistics}," but in this instance I think it fits when discussing how to make your pre shot routine more consistent, thus making shots more consistenty.

How you line up the shot, position your body, create your arm/wrist/hand/cue angles, et. all effect your ability to make shots consistenly.

If you are not doing this process the same every time, then I doubt if you're getting consistent results in your game. There aren't any exceptions to this rule for everyone - you must do the same basic routine to get the same basic results.

It also helps to address the striking of the cue ball in the same manner, eliminating unnecessary alterations and differences that require human calculations that lower "margin of error." Contrary to popular belief it's best to limit your amount of choices to include only the ones that truly matter.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The TOI patterns are actually easier, and you have to use speed control

Okay,

This is not going to be easy. I gave it a full 3.5 hours of 'practice' & then another 3 hours of play/competition playing 'mixed' (TOI & 'MY Way') on a shimmed 9 foot table with Simonis cloth. ( 4 1/8 to 4 1/4" pockets)

Firstly, everything CJ has said about it, the TOI, is true. It is an awesome technigue for pocketing balls (if you accelerate). The CB does 'kill' & 'float'. You do start to see 'possibilities' that you did not consider before.

Now...the problem for me, was position. Since you must accelerate for it to work, it was difficult, for me, to control the speed of the CB. It always seemed to 'float' too far or...not far enough. However it does not matter that much because... you can make almost any shot that you are left with even if it is not the one you wanted. It was a bit frustrating, for me, since I am so use to getting very good & easy position for my next shot.

It is DEFINITELY a tool in my tool box & may very well become my predominant shot once (if) I get a 'feel' for the different ways to get better position with it. (more rails)

Also I did find that while it certainly can work with my normal looser grip & more full & fluid stroke, it seemed to work better with a more firm grip & compact stroke. It almost makes you want to firm up & shorten up.

I don't know what else to say, except that it did not take that long to 'real eyes' that the TOI is a formidable technique very well worth considering making my main shooting mechanism. That being said from one who has been pocketing balls with spin & fineese for position sake for 46 years.

Thanks CJ. This has been the most 'difference making' thing that I have learned since I first learned to shoot with inside 'english' almost 46 years ago. I was even able to shoot a straight in shot 'left' & make it go 'right' straight into the pocket.:wink:

The difference is...a totally different perspective, for me. 'Seeing' & using 'deflection'/squirt vs. using swerve & spin.

I don't really know when or if I will be able to make a total transition to TOI because I see the 'easy' position of shots first, since playing that way for 46 years, but I also see the TOI way to pocket balls.

Hopefully, the more I play with the TOI, I will start to see its patterns for position.

Right now...I'm torn between two 'lovers'. I guess I'm still married, but I've met my future mistress.:wink: The question is...can I keep them both happy & me along with them.:wink:

Best Regards,

I admire you desire to learn this technique and the way you describe it helps me to understand what things are important for you to learn.

The TOI patterns are actually easier, and you achieve them almost entirely through speed contol. It doesn't even range that much, however it does give you better control because you're taking the "spin" out of the equation. Spin AND speed are very difficult to master because there's infinite amount of shots you can do with a combination of the two{speed & spin}.

If you're always trying to pick out the "best shot," the game is probably mentally taxing after awhile. When using the TOI you will see the "right shot" almost immediately, because your potential choices have been {positively}been reduced. This is why the greatest players can all play fast if they have to, because they only see one or two potential shots most of the time (one pocket is a slight exception).

Trying to do your two techniques at the same time is counter productive because the strength of the TOI is taking out the variatables. I appreciate you input because I can see more and more how important it is to show how this technique is done correctly.

Once you SEE IT done it will make a huge difference because we'll have the same reference points and I'll be able to answer questions and increase your awareness of how powerful the TOI is to position play, not just shot making. I plan on doing the TOI video filming this weekend. By sometime next week I'll show exactly what this system is all about and why it's so effective. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[One Pocket John]

Okay,

This is not going to be easy. I gave it a full 3.5 hours of 'practice' & then another 3 hours of play/competition playing 'mixed' (TOI & 'MY Way') on a shimmed 9 foot table with Simonis cloth. ( 4 1/8 to 4 1/4" pockets)

Firstly, everything CJ has said about it, the TOI, is true. It is an awesome technigue for pocketing balls (if you accelerate). The CB does 'kill' & 'float'. You do start to see 'possibilities' that you did not consider before.

Now...the problem for me, was position. Since you must accelerate for it to work, it was difficult, for me, to control the speed of the CB. It always seemed to 'float' too far or...not far enough. However it does not matter that much because... you can make almost any shot that you are left with even if it is not the one you wanted. It was a bit frustrating, for me, since I am so use to getting very good & easy position for my next shot.

It is DEFINITELY a tool in my tool box & may very well become my predominant shot once (if) I get a 'feel' for the different ways to get better position with it. (more rails)

Also I did find that while it certainly can work with my normal looser grip & more full & fluid stroke, it seemed to work better with a more firm grip & compact stroke. It almost makes you want to firm up & shorten up.

I don't know what else to say, except that it did not take that long to 'real eyes' that the TOI is a formidable technique very well worth considering making my main shooting mechanism. That being said from one who has been pocketing balls with spin & fineese for position sake for 46 years.

Thanks CJ. This has been the most 'difference making' thing that I have learned since I first learned to shoot with inside 'english' almost 46 years ago. I was even able to shoot a straight in shot 'left' & make it go 'right' straight into the pocket.:wink:

The difference is...a totally different perspective, for me. 'Seeing' & using 'deflection'/squirt vs. using swerve & spin.

I don't really know when or if I will be able to make a total transition to TOI because I see the 'easy' position of shots first, since playing that way for 46 years, but I also see the TOI way to pocket balls.

Hopefully, the more I play with the TOI, I will start to see its patterns for position.

Right now...I'm torn between two 'lovers'. I guess I'm still married, but I've met my future mistress.:wink: The question is...can I keep them both happy & me along with them.:wink:

Best Regards,

Rick,

Happy to hear you were able to take TOI to the table for a while.

CJ has been using this style for a couple of decades and we have invested only a few hours so the way I look at it is to give it some time.

I like it because I dont have to use spin to pocket a ball. Its easier for me to stay up and down ther vertical axis of the cue ball and use speed to send the QB where I want it to go.

The cue ball is a lot heavier using CJ's style.

I'll invest a year into this style and see where my game goes.

Talk to you later

John

 

[336Robin]

Toi

I think this is a great way to learn the TOI method, just do it, experience it and appreciate how much easier it makes the game. The way the cue ball starts "floating" after contact is something that develops your "Touch" to a much higher level. Using spin actually takes away from the true "feel for the game." It's almost like it "dilutes" or "waters down" the experience.

When I came back and started playing again (after an 8 years) the game seemed complicated and much more difficult than it "used to be."
My first tournament in 9 years was the US OPEN and, even though my confidence wasn't near 100% I managed a 9th place finish.

It was still possible for me to win against World Class players, however, something was missing. I would listen to strories of "how I used to play," and honestly it was hard to believe I was "that guy," that could go hours without missing on "triple shimmed" equipment. I wasn't "that guy," because that guy had this complicated game reduced to just 2 key thoughts, and one of them was TOI and the other was "accelerate!'

Of course I knew about the "Touch" of Inside, and I also remembered that I always had to make myself use TOI (this technique doesn't happen just "by accident) when I really wanted to play at a high level.

I'm still not sure why, as a human being, it's so difficult to commit to something, knowing for sure it is benefitial. It's just a relief to commit to it again and be able to "not just play the game," to be able to connect to the Game.

Its difficult for people aim with Center Ball so when youre talking to someone who doesnt have the aim piece settled and then you tell them ok....TOI.....whoo hoo.....sort of shakes things up a bit.....makes you really reexamine the aim piece....your clue producing mechanism no matter what it is......so you need to have your stuff together on center ball and if you dont the TOI is going teach you...especially if youve been slinging em in with outside all the time.

Just another lovely day in paradise...

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

 

[Mikjary]

RJ,

I've put in a little time with the TOI and figured out like CJ says, it is more than just the TOI. The speed control is what gives you the position and dictates where you hit the object ball.

You can hit the same place on the object ball with a firm stroke and then a softer stroke and get two different reactions from the cue ball. Possibly you may miss the shot if you contact the same place on the object ball depending on the angle.

I look to hit the shot with a TOI on every shot. It feels as if I'm lining up with center cue ball, but I'm parallel and maybe a sixteenth of an inch off of center. I stroke straight through the cue ball. If I need a little more inside spin for position, I may give it a touch of back hand english.

I just started trying CJ's method for outside spin. I line up with a touch of inside and stroke over to center ball with BHE. I got a lot more spin than I needed so I had to tame down the stroke. It was interesting to see that much spin with such a small movement. I think this is what Efren does. I've watched video of him cueing close to center and getting crazy amounts of side spin.

The speed control will come after a few days. The new patterns are there, too. You CAN shoot a softer stroke while accelerating. You feel like you're hitting too hard at first, but the cue ball doesn't take off. If you use a longer stroke the TOI doesn't respond as well. You get unneeded spin and you can't control the speed. Short and sweet!

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Its difficult for people aim with Center Ball so when youre talking to someone who doesnt have the aim piece settled and then you tell them ok....TOI.....whoo hoo.....sort of shakes things up a bit.....makes you really reexamine the aim piece....your clue producing mechanism no matter what it is......so you need to have your stuff together on center ball and if you dont the TOI is going teach you...especially if youve been slinging em in with outside all the time.

Just another lovely day in paradise...

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

I still use center ball with a TOI, but only on straight in shots or to slow roll some shots. You really learn where center ball is after using a TOI for a while. I've trained my mind to get down with a TOI and have to stop for a second and think center ball. My stop shots stop dead with no spin.

It was a shakeup, like you said, at first. After a few days, it gets to be fun again because your game picks up. Arm chairing whether a TOI will work for you or just trying it for 5 minutes is not the way to go. Committing to it is almost addictive! You want to see what you can do with it and how far you can get with it. New position patterns grab your mind even though you thought you knew them all. A shakeup may even be too simple a word for the change!

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi John & Mike,

Thanks for the input. I can use it. In my 3.5 hours with TOI, I figured I would be changing so much that I first focus on alignmenY with the TOI to just pocket balls it worked fne) & not worry about changing grip/stroke etc.

Then I started looking to position, you're correct about the long & loose not working well as the CB usually floats too far. So I started to ease up a bit if I thought that would get position, it usually 'floated' short & I started to bobble balls in the pockets.

So... I started using CJ's firm tennis type grip & hitting 'softer' workedbetter for pocketing balls but the floating position was still either too much or not enough but not as far off, so I think was 'better'.But still on the wrong side many times. This was all during the 'practice' time.

Whe I satarted to compete with a friend, I tied to stay with the TOI but fairky quickly 'real eyes' That I was not up to par. So...I did not abandon it all together, but shot some shots 'my way' for easy position & use the TOI for frimer type shots that I thought might get me position through the more natural angle. It was hit and mis. So... afew times I aimed for center pocket & 'deflected' to the over cut side to change the angle. Again it was hit or mis, including the pocketing of the OB a couple of times.

I think the bottom line is I have to learn to deflect the ball enough with less speed or fine tune my aim more precisely in order to get position.

What I did not do, is it any shot with center CB unless I was slow rollng a shot. That will now become an option on certain shots.

the problem is I'm starting an in house 8 ball league next week & have no idea which 'woman' to take to the dance. If i take both i don't know if it will be all hugs & kisse or a cat fight. I guess we'll see next week.

Best Regards,

 

[West Point 1987]

:wink::wink:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the input. I can use it. In my 3.5 hours with TOI, I figured I would be changing so much that I first focus on alignmenY with the TOI to just pocket balls it worked fne) & not worry about changing grip/stroke etc.

Then I started looking to position, you're correct about the long & loose not working well as the CB usually floats too far. So I started to ease up a bit if I thought that would get position, it usually 'floated' short & I started to bobble balls in the pockets.

So... I started using CJ's firm tennis type grip & hitting 'softer' workedbetter for pocketing balls but the floating position was still either too much or not enough but not as far off, so I think was 'better'.But still on the wrong side many times. This was all during the 'practice' time.

Whe I satarted to compete with a friend, I tied to stay with the TOI but fairky quickly 'real eyes' That I was not up to par. So...I did not abandon it all together, but shot some shots 'my way' for easy position & use the TOI for frimer type shots that I thought might get me position through the more natural angle. It was hit and mis. So... afew times I aimed for center pocket & 'deflected' to the over cut side to change the angle. Again it was hit or mis, including the pocketing of the OB a couple of times.

I think the bottom line is I have to learn to deflect the ball enough with less speed or fine tune my aim more precisely in order to get position.

What I did not do, is it any shot with center CB unless I was slow rollng a shot. That will now become an option on certain shots.

the problem is I'm starting an in house 8 ball league next week & have no idea which 'woman' to take to the dance.

Rick:

With respect to shape, the challenge one faces with TOI is that they quickly realize ("real eyes") that they aren't as used to visualizing natural angles as they thought they were...once you really see the natural angles (TOI really forces you to) you then can dial in your touch to slide the cue ball in where you need to...then, when you have to, you can adjust your post collision path using side IF you have to to avoid obstructions, hit clusters, whatever. You'll probably notice that draw and follow can significantly alter the angle off the OB, too...usually enough in most cases. Most players come to rely so much on outside English to pocket the balls, they've conditioned themselves to try and judge the angle, speed, acceleration of the cue ball after contact that way...which is very dependent on table conditions and other variables. Using the natural angle as your baseline every time in your default initial approach (and THEN adjusting if you have to) is much more reliable. That's the part that took me about three weeks to dial in.

The other thing I noticed (as this is a "muscular" style of play) is that you can easily get carried away with speed of the cue ball. ACCELERATION does NOT equal speed...it's just the INCREASE in speed. Zero to 2 mph is just as good as zero to 15 mph. It works just the same. I found myself hitting them too hard as I worked my way through this...just think as long as the stroke is accelerating through the cue ball the deflection will still take and the ball track will adjust...more or less depending on speed, but it's not that difficult to judge. The thicker the hit, the more force is required to get the cue ball to hold enough energy after contact to go where you need it, so that's another variable to consider; but that gets filed away in the subconscious "feel" part of it eventually. The hammer grip stroke CJ advocates actually helps you with acceleration at all speeds because of the action...but it's not absolutely necessary, so long as the acceleration through the cue ball happens with whatever grip/stroke you use.

The short bridge works easiest when you're picking this up, but you can creep your bridge hand back as you get more comfortable. The short bridge makes unwanted side movement less likely, thus it's a little easier at first. If you're having consistency issues, shorten your bridge a little for a while.

Bill