WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[Mikjary]

Thanks for the post Mike. Cleared up what CJ was saying in the post above.

I have my own table so its pretty easy to read a post and then practice the content.

I made the shot on the first try. But my approach is a little different. Since working with TOI I have focused on using the center axis of the cue ball on as many shots as I can. Sometimes you have to use spin. I'm trying to get away from spin.

What I do is line up the shot QB center to OB center in the standing position. I then come down on trhe shot stroking the cue back and forth, center to center. In this case I wanted to use left TOI. On the shot stroke I make sure that I am (here is where it gets different) favoring the left side of the QB just a hair. I dont like taking my eyes off of the OB contact point. Sometimes I look at the QB once and then there are times I will look at it twice, but never any more than that.

I have tried to estimate 1/16" (or a Hair) on the QB but I get so hung up on the QB that I lose focus on the OB.......jeez :frown:

I am really looking forward to CJ posting his video on this subject.

I'm having fun just reading and learning. :smile:

John

In order to get the cue tip in the right place for me, I practiced shooting the cue ball up and down the table until it was consistent. With the cue ball on the spot and a medium stroke, I got about a quarter diamond to half a diamond off of dead center on the short rail. I practiced all speeds until I felt comfortable with it.

It's a habit now and I don't have to check the cue ball for tip placement. The reaction of the cue ball and where the ball hits the pocket are what I look at now. If I don't get the desired results, I adjust my stroke to make it work and get back in a groove.

Best,
Mike

 

[DTL]

...........................

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. DTL,

Sorry, my bad. I did not notice it. I just fixed it. Thanks for pointing it out. Sorry again.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

you can train your perception to see every "shot angle" as "straight in."

A question and a comment.

This is gonna sound stupid, but its something that I haven't grasped properly. In your above example, in the first paragraph, you state to "move your tip over slightly to the right".

Then in the second paragraph, "Do the same thing, aiming at the center to center, then move your cue (parallel) further to the right and accelerate, cutting the object ball more to the right."

Is the movement suggested in the first paragraph supposed to be parallel, as described in the second paragraph? Or is supposed to be a pivot?

Many times in these threads, we are instructed to "move to the right (or inside, or whatever)" but it isn't specified if its supposed to be parallel or pivoting, and for a novice like myself, this becomes confusing.



My comment. I am way too much of a beginner to truly attempt the TOI methods, and I'm good with that. (I also don't have the dedicated practice time to make this or any system work properly.) Still, I like to read anything and everything to see if I can pick up things that help me in general, and this is no exception.

Earlier, banks and kicks were addressed. Now as you can imagine, beginners like me can struggle with them, and I'm no exception. I can't tell you how many times I would miss such a shot, because I came off the rail badly. All because I wasn't addressing the cueball properly (carelessly, in truth). But after reading the TOI information, something stuck in my brain enough that when I'm shooting a bank or a kick, TOI screams into my brain. It simply makes me insure that I'm lined up on the proper side of the cueball for the shot, and my "make" and "hit" percentages have gone up considerably.

So even though I'm not truly able to use TOI the way you suggest, yet, I have gotten something positive from it. And I won't stop there.

Thanks.

I'm getting down with my cue as straight as possible to the inside of the cue ball. If you "pivot" it won't deflect properly and you won't be able to control the angle like you will with the TOI method.

If I set the cue ball on the head spot and the object ball on the foot spot I can cut that ball accurately to anywhere on the back rail. For me it's easier to change and create the angle needed if I just use the cue ball and the tip. If you want an easy way to see what I'm saying just line up a shot that's "not quite" straight in. If you're cutting it slightly to the right, use the {TOI Right}, if you're cutting it slightly to the left, use {TOI Left}.

Remember, LINE UP like these balls are straight in and then move your cue (not just your tip) INSIDE in the direction you need the cut (right cuts right, left cuts left). Accelerate through the ball LIKE IT IS STILL STRAIGHT IN and let the deflection create the angle. Using the TOI technique is VERY effective in creating the angles while LINING UP center cue ball to center object ball OR center cue ball to edge of object ball (left edge if cutting to the right).

In my 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' { www.cjwiley.com } I show my aiming system and how I "connect the dots" above the shot BEFORE I get down. The TOI is my "check and balance" for this system. The beauty of the system is you can shoot every shot like it's "straight in," lining up to either the center or edge of the object ball.

This is why I've said you can train your perception to see every "shot angle" as "straight in." This is the only way I could average missing one shot every two hours when "dead stroke" occurred. .....and like I've said many times "you have to experience it to believe it." 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Unless you're a top champion it's extremely difficult to master "ALL" the shots

Several good points about the TOI, CJ. Experimenting with the contact point on the cue ball was the key for me. I use just about a sixteenth of an inch and get good results. It feels like a center ball hit with a small cue ball deflection.

Using a stop shot, if I move my tip over on your drill without a parallel shift (like using back hand english), the object ball hits the short rail and comes back and hits the cue ball at about a half ball. Very little deflection and very solid.

If I move parallel, moving my entire stick over, I slightly cut the object ball and the cue ball deflects more to the side. The object ball no longer hits the cue ball coming off of the short rail.

Though I've never tried your drill, I realized after a few hours of practice with it that these subtle changes in alignment could be consistent methods to pocket balls and get position. I'm able to cheat the pocket with these small changes even on my 4" pockets. The estimation is done for me by my cueing alignment.

This is also a great tool for pocketing balls that are just off a few degrees from straight in. You don't have to slightly cut the ball or use spin. Neither one of those choices are easy because you are usually following or drawing the nearly straight in shots. Not much room for error especially with speed.

I aim the shot while standing with the idea of deflection/squirt on the cue ball. I get down and slightly cue over to the inside depending on the amount of deflection I need. That's much easier to figure than throwing the ball with spin. I did that for years and played good, but never could make it work consistently. Position play was tougher, also. Getting where I need to go and floating into position is taking time to learn, but it's working!

Best,
Mike

I can tell by your descriptions that you are really starting to see the effectiveness of TOI. When it comes to changing perceptions, like TOI does, it's challenging to understand. At your current level of understanding I could work with you and get you to the "next level" in the course of a couple of hours. I would have to show you a few things "live" though.

The one thing that no one is going to really understand until they see it is the shots you can do with the TOI. I set shots up and show top notch players and they can't believe what I can do with the TOI until I show them a few times. And I do mean "a few times," I have an old time friend that I used to travel on the road with that made me shoot one "off angled" shot seven or eight times before he could "process it." You can just "cheat" angles once you understand how to USE deflection in a way that doesn't look possible.

I"ve had many matches where I used this type shot and either the opponent quit soon after or they just "went down the tubes." It's demoralizing to play someone that can make shots that you KNOW you can't make. It's just the Knowledge of the TOI that did it and the key is YOU CAN MASTER IT.

Unless you're a top champion it's extremely difficult to master "ALL" the shots and even then it takes HOURS of practice to keep it up. Even at the top of my game I rarely practiced more than an hour or two a day and could take weeks off and play championship level.

It wasn't that I was more talented, it was because I had mastered the TOI and when I came back playing a few years ago it had "left me." It ended up being a "blessing in disguise," because now I KNOW how I did it and can help others do it as well. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[336Robin]

a "blessing in disguise," because now I KNOW how I did it and can help others do it as well. 'The Game is the Teacher'

You said a lot there......a sizeable pool retirement sure can expose something you knew how to do in youth but lost due to time...been there....

Just another lovely day in paradise....

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

 

[Mikjary]

I shortened my bridge and stroke to get the best results from using a TOI. It's hard to accelerate with a long stroke and adds unnecessary movement in your wrist. I get plenty of spin if needed with a locked wrist. It took a while and a commitment, but my fingers now control the spin I get.

I like to use the simplest method I can find when learning anything new. I feel I can build on a solid foundation after developing a sound basic technique. Staying close to center cue ball with a TOI has forced me to leave spin out of most shots. A consistent cueing point on the cue ball has eliminated a lot of errant movement when playing position, also. I know that with more experience my game will continue to climb. A little at a time, but that's all I need.

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi Mike,

I hope I can catch up to where you are with the TOI. My only problem seems to be speed control for the position. My plan is to put in a session to find out just how softly I can hit the shot & still get the deflection needed. I now wish I had not moved my table to my son's house.

Wish me luck.
Best Regards,

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

last night i decided to take some long shots with the TOI, I had 5 minutes to kill waiting for my buddy. Its very hard to not over cut the pocket and i was targeting an inch past outside point of the pocket.

 

[madmiller]

During my last practice session when I was playing with TOI I noticed one thing. Many times when I shoot a long cut shot , right after when I shoot the ball, I had a feeling that I missed, but the object ball goes right in the pocket!!!
Never had that experience before. When I used to miss, I had a feeling that I missed. Now it's different.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

During my last practice session when I was playing with TOI I noticed one thing. Many times when I shoot a long cut shot , right after when I shoot the ball, I had a feeling that I missed, but the object ball goes right in the pocket!!!
Never had that experience before. When I used to miss, I had a feeling that I missed. Now it's different.

This technique sacrifices a lot of feel, I am guessing you get that back once you really,really master the technique.

 

[ENGLISH!]

last night i decided to take some long shots with the TOI, I had 5 minutes to kill waiting for my buddy. Its very hard to not over cut the pocket and i was targeting an inch past outside point of the pocket.

That's interesting. I found it to be more accurate & never targeted past the 'full hit pocket point'. But...I was using LD shafts, OB Classic & McD i2.

How far inside was your tip? You only need a very thin hair of inside with accelation.

Best Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

During my last practice session when I was playing with TOI I noticed one thing. Many times when I shoot a long cut shot , right after when I shoot the ball, I had a feeling that I missed, but the object ball goes right in the pocket!!!
Never had that experience before. When I used to miss, I had a feeling that I missed. Now it's different.

I had the same perception at first, but it soon turned into expecting to make the ball.

It is so different from shooting with center CB or english. That's why the initial perception is a mis. That changes after a very short time.

Best Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

This technique sacrifices a lot of feel, I am guessing you get that back once you really,really master the technique.

I'm not sure I fully agree with your statement. I think the 'feel' is just different. I, for now, have lost the fine CB control for position & I think & certainly hope that that will come back with 'mastering' the technique.

Best Regards.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I think this is more of a half table technique, I also don't like the feeling of loosing the feel of the shot, the feel of the shot seems to disappear once you move into the bridging position and the object ball and pocket just doesn't feel connected to the cue ball for me anyway.

 

[Mikjary]

I think this is more of a half table technique, I also don't like the feeling of loosing the feel of the shot, the feel of the shot seems to disappear once you move into the bridging position and the object ball and pocket just doesn't feel connected to the cue ball for me anyway.

I've found it to be the opposite if I understand your last post correctly. It has been consistent for me on the long shots and especially the long thin cuts and straight back banks. I had to spend some time shooting each different type of cut with different speeds to gauge the affect that swerve would have on the cue ball. I like the idea of slightly over cutting my long shots. I still have a lot of pocket left to make the ball if I do.

Best,
Mike

 

[One Pocket John]

I wonder if CJ has finished the video he was to do this weekend.

Looking forward to it.

John

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I've found it to be the opposite if I understand your last post correctly. It has been consistent for me on the long shots and especially the long thin cuts and straight back banks. I had to spend some time shooting each different type of cut with different speeds to gauge the affect that swerve would have on the cue ball. I like the idea of slightly over cutting my long shots. I still have a lot of pocket left to make the ball if I do. View attachment 250485

Best,
Mike

I don't like the fact that your alignment is aimed at one contact point but you have the feeling your hitting a different contact point to make the shot. I feel like i loose control or feel on the shot. The long shots i took were close to half ball full table shots with the ob and cb at different distances.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think this is more of a half table technique, I also don't like the feeling of loosing the feel of the shot, the feel of the shot seems to disappear once you move into the bridging position and the object ball and pocket just doesn't feel connected to the cue ball for me anyway.

Interesting. I never 'feel' much if any connection to the pocket, not even the OB to the pocket. It has always been a periphreal objective caused by the main connection of me making the CB 'connect' in the proper manner to the OB. It, the pocket, is, to me, more like a judge saying, 'yes, well done', or 'no, you messed up'. I have not paid much attention to the pocket after my initial decision as to what part of it I want to use, cheat, for position sake.

I guess it's much, much, more than just different strokes for different folks. It's different perceptions as well!

Best Regards,

 

[One Pocket John]

Interesting. I never 'feel' much if any connection to the pocket, not even the OB to the pocket. It has always been a periphreal objective caused by the main connection of me making the CB 'connect' in the proper manner to the OB. It, the pocket, is, to me, more like a judge saying, 'yes, well done', or 'no, you messed up'. I have not paid much attention to the pocket after my initial decision as to what part of it I want to use, cheat, for position sake.

I guess it's much, much, more than just different strokes for different folks. It's different perceptions as well!

Best Regards,

Thats the way I have always looked at it. Once the line from the pocket thru the object ball is drawn and a contact point is established the pocket is out of my thoughts and total focus is given to the contact point on the OB. If you hit the contact point the ball is gone.

The way I look at it, is now I am playing 3 cushion billiards and trying to send the QB to a location on the table.

I play 9 ball and 3 cushion billiards, not because I like the games, those two games help my 1P game, a game that I thoroughly enjoy.

John