Yapp banned from WPA tournament?

[justnum]

The interview was a formality. WPA showed good faith by having a public conference.

If banning becomes more popular and the WPA player roster suffers because of it, then what adjustments will WPA make.

The next problem the WPA will have to prepare for is, what happens if federations don't send enough players to events.

In some sports, there is a national champion and then there is the champion of the sports best athletes.

Which type of champion is the WPA champion?

Pro pool players living in countries with government WPA pool sponsorship is a dream worth financing from a government perspective.

 

[skogstokig]

Everything will be rosy and forgiven if MR pays the sanction fee according to the president.

I don’t see either side giving in.

The players will have to choose. It won’t be a per event basis either. If they play in one (unsanctioned) MR event they will most likely be banned from all future WPA sanctioned events.

I also was not clear if one player’s actions can decide for another. If Filler plays in an unsanctioned MR event and is banned from WPA, does that mean Souquet is also banned (assuming Souquet never plays an unsanctioned event)? It seemed like the bans could be at the federation level, not the individual player level. (Like we are seeing with the Singapore players at the Fermosa open). I’m not clear on this.

can they even legally deny MR the world championship?

thanks for summarizing anyway. i might listen to that podcast only if i have a really dull CAD session at work lol

 

[ibuycues]

... or even worse, the 1970 Kent State Massacre, in which those wiped out were not even targeted.

I was a student at Kent then.
Will Prout

 

[kling&allen]

Big interview with WPA president was just live on the podcast YouTube channel. I caught about 10% of it. It was about 1.5 hrs long. The president was very open. Looks like this is just the beginning.

I personally see MR will lose the world championships, and have their exclusive tour. With prize money bigger than WPA WC.

The players will have to choose MR or WPA. there will NOT be an option to play in both.

Edit: also the region federations will not be able to work with MR at all.

Yikes! What podcast?

Edit: looks like Window’s open

 

[iusedtoberich]

Here is the link to the podcast all. I'm watching it from the beginning, and about half way though. The sport will basically be torn apart if things continue as-is for the next year.

I can see WPA's side. Listening to the president, MR has basically bullied their way in and want to have everything their way. The WPA "is" the authority, and is not going to allow "any" private company (MR, Predator, Kevin IPT, etc) to control the pool system, EVEN if that private company (MR) is the best thing since sliced bread. I completely understand that. We've had so many fly by night promoters that steal the year end purse, both from a weekly tournament level, to a professional tour level.

What's going to happen, IMO is MR will take over, WPA may crumble. Then when/if MR says bye bye, (like just about every other promoter has in the past 50 years), there will be no organization left in pool.

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is up to each person to decide. But it all has to be taken as a whole. Yes, MR is doing great things for the sport, but they could be breaking the sport's core structure as well. That's what we are fundamentally discussing. Is the core structure of WPA and all its member federations wanted/needed?

Also all of us (me included) that are frequently heard saying "what has the WPA done for me lately", are not seeing the whole picture.

IMO

 

[kling&allen]

Here is the link to the podcast all. I'm watching it from the beginning, and about half way though. The sport will basically be torn apart if things continue as-is for the next year.

I can see WPA's side. Listening to the president, MR has basically bullied their way in and want to have everything their way. The WPA "is" the authority, and is not going to allow "any" private company (MR, Predator, Kevin IPT, etc) to control the pool system, EVEN if that private company (MR) is the best thing since sliced bread. I completely understand that. We've had so many fly by night promoters that steal the year end purse, both from a weekly tournament level, to a professional tour level.

What's going to happen, IMO is MR will take over, WPA may crumble. Then when/if MR says bye bye, (like just about every other promoter has in the past 50 years), there will be no organization left in pool.

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is up to each person to decide. But it all has to be taken as a whole. Yes, MR is doing great things for the sport, but they could be breaking the sport's core structure as well. That's what we are fundamentally discussing. Is the core structure of WPA and all its member federations wanted/needed?

Also all of us (me included) that are frequently heard saying "what has the WPA done for me lately", are not seeing the whole picture.

IMO

Thanks for the summary. A mess for sure with the players and fans getting screwed as always.

 

[FranCrimi]

Not complaining has consequences that create precedence for more bans.

I hope to see a procedural discussion for federations hosted by the WCBS on player agreements and appeals. If different federation within billiards exercise different rights the WCBS is the only structure to manage and regulate it.

I hope athletes have more legal proceedings according to global guidelines but administered by local federations. If the IOC created the framework for WCBS to follow, but not maintain oversight, it leaves a power vacuum for federations to own its athletes like property. I just hope to see pool players with more rights in the federation policy making, including participation in sports governing and rulemaking.

I understand your point and I have a special interest, being a player myself, to put the players' best interests first. However, I don't think they're at that point yet. There's still room for negotiations. Let's just see where things lead before encouraging something like running to the IOC.

 

[Atorontopoolplayer]

In that interview it really seems like WPA is being obstinate to protect their turf. Match room is not banning anyone from any events, doing so by the WPA is going to hurt only the players.

 

[iusedtoberich]

In that interview it really seems like WPA is being obstinate to protect their turf. Match room is not banning anyone from any events, doing so by the WPA is going to hurt only the players.

MR is putting language in their player contract that gives MR the authority to dictate where and when the players can play. That was the main sticking point that has caused WPA to start banning players. This is new language by MR that was not in their player contract before. This is a bigger issue according to the WPA than simply not sanctioning. Effectively, that language would allow MR to ban players from competing in non MR events.

This is taking everything said on the podcast at face value.

 

[Atorontopoolplayer]

MR is putting language in their player contract that gives MR the authority to dictate where and when the players can play. That was the main sticking point that has caused WPA to start banning players. This is new language by MR that was not in their player contract before. This is a bigger issue according to the WPA than simply not sanctioning. Effectively, that language would allow MR to ban players from competing in non MR events.

This is taking everything said on the podcast at face value.

Right, I saw that but matchroom hasn't actually restricted anyone and by all accounts have no plans to

 

[MattPoland]

I think that's very relevant.

Worst case scenario is that the ACBS decides to control pool in Asia and decides to tell APP/APF and Matchroom that they need to sanction their Asia events with WPA and subject them to WPA/ACBS rulings (like the Singapore ban).

And then if Matchroom doesn't they warn Asian players that playing in APP/APF or Matchroom events will result in a ban for those players in ACBS affiliated events. And the possibility of that happening could increase in the future if we see a scheduling conflict between an ACBS affiliated billiards event (like the SEA Games or something else) and a Matchroom affiliated event.

Granted the recent "don't play in that event" warning we've seen from ACBS was from competing sanctioned and non-sanctioned snooker world championships so hopefully it doesn't come to bear. We did see the EPBF had that "you may be punished for selecting non-sanctioned events over sanctioned events" in their player agreements. In that interview indicated they don't intend to leverage it but did feel it's existence was necessary to protect themselves. I am inclined to trust them on that. But I'm feeling less trusting of the ACBS based on this suspension of Singapore pool players due to what's happening in Snooker.

The exact same battle we see waging between the IBSF and the WPBSA in snooker is now mirrored in pool between the WPA and the WPNPC. It's probably just a matter of time before WPA chooses to not renew Matchroom's contract for the world championship. When that day comes, Matchroom will likely hold it's own world championship and truly recreate these events. And here we have the ACBS in place to give WPA some teeth in Asia to present a stronger front worldwide.

While long term I think that's where this is all headed, what I said at the beginning as a worst case scenario could spark that same outcome sooner if certain cards are played early. Hopefully ACBS doesn't nose in on the Matchroom Asian Open, TE Capital APP 9-ball Open, or the Chinese Taipei 9-ball Open. I think it's a possibility they could given their WPA recognition is new and this is an opportunity for them to shore up their control in the region.

Playing out a lot like what I had said here. Only difference is the Polish Federation fired the first shot with the Asian Open. And it really looks like WPA as a whole is soon to follow after their next general assembly. When’s that?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Playing out a lot like what I had said here. Only difference is the Polish Federation fired the first shot with the Asian Open. And it really looks like WPA as a whole is soon to follow after their next general assembly. When’s that?

I think the video interview said Oct 7 was the meeting date.

 

[iusedtoberich]

If WPA follows through with banning players/federations from playing in non-sanctioned events, it will really be trouble.

If the players choose MR, they won't be allowed to play in any WPA events. That also most likely means other promoters won't put up money to even hold a major WPA event. Why would a promoter invest money if all the top players would not be allowed to play? Thus, most of the other promoters would fold up, IMO, and WPA wouldn't have any promoters to work with.

If the player's choose WPA, then all the top players would be excluded from MR events. MR might fold up. Who would watch a MR event without the top pros? This would also open the door for other promoters, such as Predator, to hold a lot more events and have the players support them.

The only two ways I see things to go peacefully and both MR and WPA to exist in full force:

1) MR pays the sanction fees like they have for 20 years, and removes language from their player contracts that they can dictate where/when players can play. MR does NOT try to control "9 ball pool", which is what the WPA president said MR tried to do in full, when they publicly stated they "want control of the points".

2) WPA lets MR do its own thing, without WPA sanctioning, yet does NOT ban any player/entity who cooperates with MR from playing in any WPA events. This would effectively be re-writing that section of the WPA constitution, or not enforcing that section of the WPA constitution.

 

[justnum]

At this point who made better preparations to secure enough players to field competitions?

If the split leaves pool championships without full field events for awhile, then who can last longer in a war of attrition?

WPA is more connected and established at the government level.
Matchroom attracts high talent pool players financed by pool room entrepreneurs.

Both camps are digging into their core philosophy.

Matchroom plans to be successful independent of sanctioning.

WPA plans to be successful by required sanctioning. Both are worthy efforts.

The power of writers, journalism and articles is how the war for pool players begins.

Ishaun from WPA made their case this morning. Everyone watching pool knows what Emily is about.

All the foreign investors have to decide who to build relationships with WPA or with Matchroom.

Why should foreign countries or independent oligarchs support billiards whether its the WPA or Matchroom? The WPA way versus the Matchroom way. This is an exciting era of sports marketing.

The pool wars have started.

 

[kling&allen]

If WPA follows through with banning players/federations from playing in non-sanctioned events, it will really be trouble.

If the players choose MR, they won't be allowed to play in any WPA events. That also most likely means other promoters won't put up money to even hold a major WPA event. Why would a promoter invest money if all the top players would not be allowed to play? Thus, most of the other promoters would fold up, IMO, and WPA wouldn't have any promoters to work with.

If the player's choose WPA, then all the top players would be excluded from MR events. MR might fold up. Who would watch a MR event without the top pros? This would also open the door for other promoters, such as Predator, to hold a lot more events and have the players support them.

The only two ways I see things to go peacefully and both MR and WPA to exist in full force:

1) MR pays the sanction fees like they have for 20 years, and removes language from their player contracts that they can dictate where/when players can play. MR does NOT try to control "9 ball pool", which is what the WPA president said MR tried to do in full, when they publicly stated they "want control of the points".

2) WPA lets MR do its own thing, without WPA sanctioning, yet does NOT ban any player/entity who cooperates with MR from playing in any WPA events. This would effectively be re-writing that section of the WPA constitution, or not enforcing that section of the WPA constitution.

I saw Emily just say on Facebook that Matchroom is not banning players and they are free to play what events they want.

Whether that’s true or not, or how long it lasts, I don’t know.

 

[skogstokig]

If WPA follows through with banning players/federations from playing in non-sanctioned events, it will really be trouble.

If the players choose MR, they won't be allowed to play in any WPA events. That also most likely means other promoters won't put up money to even hold a major WPA event. Why would a promoter invest money if all the top players would not be allowed to play? Thus, most of the other promoters would fold up, IMO, and WPA wouldn't have any promoters to work with.

If the player's choose WPA, then all the top players would be excluded from MR events. MR might fold up. Who would watch a MR event without the top pros? This would also open the door for other promoters, such as Predator, to hold a lot more events and have the players support them.

The only two ways I see things to go peacefully and both MR and WPA to exist in full force:

1) MR pays the sanction fees like they have for 20 years, and removes language from their player contracts that they can dictate where/when players can play. MR does NOT try to control "9 ball pool", which is what the WPA president said MR tried to do in full, when they publicly stated they "want control of the points".

2) WPA lets MR do its own thing, without WPA sanctioning, yet does NOT ban any player/entity who cooperates with MR from playing in any WPA events. This would effectively be re-writing that section of the WPA constitution, or not enforcing that section of the WPA constitution.

i thought the sticking point was the 9-ball rankings and the scheduling, not the sanctioning fee. at least that's what MR said last year when they split with the WPA. if it's just the sanctioning fee i doubt that would be an unsurmountable obstacle for an agreement.

the scheduling for MR is dependent on their broadcasters, their other sports etc. so quite understandable with the amount of events they've added and are planning to add that an outside organization can't be too involved.

the rankings could, in theory, be something they could come together and find an agreement on.

 

[JAM]

Here is the link to the podcast all. I'm watching it from the beginning, and about half way though. The sport will basically be torn apart if things continue as-is for the next year.

I can see WPA's side. Listening to the president, MR has basically bullied their way in and want to have everything their way. The WPA "is" the authority, and is not going to allow "any" private company (MR, Predator, Kevin IPT, etc) to control the pool system, EVEN if that private company (MR) is the best thing since sliced bread. I completely understand that. We've had so many fly by night promoters that steal the year end purse, both from a weekly tournament level, to a professional tour level.

What's going to happen, IMO is MR will take over, WPA may crumble. Then when/if MR says bye bye, (like just about every other promoter has in the past 50 years), there will be no organization left in pool.

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is up to each person to decide. But it all has to be taken as a whole. Yes, MR is doing great things for the sport, but they could be breaking the sport's core structure as well. That's what we are fundamentally discussing. Is the core structure of WPA and all its member federations wanted/needed?

Also all of us (me included) that are frequently heard saying "what has the WPA done for me lately", are not seeing the whole picture.

IMO

You hit the nail on the head. I attended the live podcast, and at the beginning, it was very informative. But then things started to take a turn with attendees firing messages in the chat that were, at least for me, uncomfortable to read. I think Ishaun should have been treated more as a guest and not as if he was standing in an execution line waiting to be executed. I give him great credit for volunteering to be a guest and take questions.

Look, I have been probably the biggest WPA opponent for years, to include the BCA's involvement in professional pool in USA. That said, Ishaun was not WPA president in the past. It was Ian Anderson, and I think Anderson did a piss-poor job of promoting pool on a global scale. Their website sucked a big weenie, while he traveled the world and enjoyed being treated like a celebrity at every event he attended. There was no transparency on what the WPA was doing for pool at that time either, and the BCA? When the BCA organization sold the BCA league to Mark Griffin and then discontinued the BCA Open, they threw professional pool players to the curb and might as well have said, "You're on your own. Even though we, the BCA, are the governing body of professional pool in North America and are needed if pool will ever have a shot in the Olympic Games, we are only going to help our industry members now. Bye-bye, American professional pool pie."

I understand the concern about the contract wording. A contract is a legally binding document. Yes, Matchroom is not enforcing its contract to restrict players participating in other events today, but if it is written in the contract, they damn sure can in the future. If I was a professional player, I would not sign a legally binding document with those words. This has shades of UPA written all over it, and some of us know what happened with the rise and fall of the UPA.

I know there are those who dislike Kevin Trudeau and the IPT, but putting that aside for now and for this thread, the IPT also did not agree to WPA sanctioning. They did not see the value in it, which is kind of the message that Matchroom is conveying today. I do understand that.

The wording of the contract and the word "world" is basically semantics, in my opinion, but reading several Matchroom letters published online, they were poorly punctuated and were riddled with errors. They should have been examined by counsel or a legal team before being sent out. It hurt my eyes to read the letters, to be quite frank. That's how poorly they were written.

I am still upset with the BCA and how they treat American professional pool, and though I have not been a fan of the WPA, I have changed my stance after seeing Ishaun come out in public and take questions in the hot seat. He made some very valid points, some of which I agree with. I also am a fan of the Matchroom events. My favorite was Poland, Kelce, but it's a close tie with the one in Spain and that audience. What a great experience it was for me to watch as a railbird. I hope the parties can meet BEHIND CLOSED DOORS and negotiate a settlement that all can agree to.

 

[JAM]

Also wildly interesting. I wasn't following the Asian pool scene until now. The regional governing body for Asia used to be the Asian Pocket Billiard Union (APBU) from 1990 until early last year. They had been accusing the WPA of violating it's constitution on these aspects.

1. WPA is a non-profit that receives 200k-300k annually but refuses to provide a financial report with detailed income and expenditure for members to review
2. The constitution says all positions are honorary and has a "no salary" clause yet the president had self-motioned the "Anderson Salary Proposal" for $50k per year in addition to already receiving subsidies for air tickets, hotel accommodation, meals, and daily travel allowances.
3. The constitution requires all decisions made at the general assembly be recorded but Anderson and Singh refused to record the approved "Anderson Salary Proposal" in the minutes.
4. The minutes and financial reports are to be signed by the directors but the APBU has never been asked to sign a WPA financial report
5. The WPA constitution states it is organized democratically and refrains from involvement with the internal affairs within the WPA membership but the WPA has bypassed the APBU to negotiate tournaments and sign contracts directly with Asian countries, association, and commercial organizations.
6. There was an airfare subsidy of $1,500 that went missing in 2010 under suspicion of corruption and the WPA president refused to investigate.

The APBU left the WPA. That's why the ACBS was granted WPA membership. The ACBS has in the past worked with the APBU jointly because while the ACBS did encompass multiple cuesports (snooker, carom and pool), it really was doing nearly nothing with pool as the APBU was specialized to pool and highly active. I don't know where the APBU stands today.

It's also worth noting the old APBU vice president Mohamed Salem Al-Nuaimi is the now current ACBS president.

This is a smoking gun right here. Wow! I had no idea. Excellent research on your end. I understand the alphabet soup of pool organizations a wee bit better now.

 

[skogstokig]

You hit the nail on the head. I attended the live podcast, and at the beginning, it was very informative. But then things started to take a turn with attendees firing messages in the chat that were, at least for me, uncomfortable to read. I think Ishaun should have been treated more as a guest and not as if he was standing in an execution line waiting to be executed. I give him great credit for volunteering to be a guest and take questions.

Look, I have been probably the biggest WPA opponent for years, to include the BCA's involvement in professional pool in USA. That said, Ishaun was not WPA president in the past. It was Ian Anderson, and I think Anderson did a piss-poor job of promoting pool on a global scale. Their website sucked a big weenie, while he traveled the world and enjoyed being treated like a celebrity at every event he attended. There was no transparency on what the WPA was doing for pool at that time either, and the BCA? When the BCA organization sold the BCA league to Mark Griffin and then discontinued the BCA Open, they threw professional pool players to the curb and might as well have said, "You're on your own. Even though we, the BCA, are the governing body of professional pool in North America and are needed if pool will ever have a shot in the Olympic Games, we are only going to help our industry members now. Bye-bye, American professional pool pie."

I understand the concern about the contract wording. A contract is a legally binding document. Yes, Matchroom is not enforcing its contract to restrict players participating in other events today, but if it is written in the contract, they damn sure can in the future. If I was a professional player, I would not sign a legally binding document with those words. This has shades of UPA written all over it, and some of us know what happened with the rise and fall of the UPA.

I know there are those who dislike Kevin Trudeau and the IPT, but putting that aside for now and for this thread, the IPT also did not agree to WPA sanctioning. They did not see the value in it, which is kind of the message that Matchroom is conveying today. I do understand that.

The wording of the contract and the word "world" is basically semantics, in my opinion, but reading several Matchroom letters published online, they were poorly punctuated and were riddled with errors. They should have been examined by counsel or a legal team before being sent out. It hurt my eyes to read the letters, to be quite frank. That's how poorly they were written.

I am still upset with the BCA and how they treat American professional pool, and though I have not been a fan of the WPA, I have changed my stance after seeing Ishaun come out in public and take questions in the hot seat. He made some very valid points, some of which I agree with. I also am a fan of the Matchroom events. My favorite was Poland, Kelce, but it's a close tie with the one in Spain and that audience. What a great experience it was for me to watch as a railbird. I hope the parties can meet BEHIND CLOSED DOORS and negotiate a settlement that all can agree to.

where is this matchroom contract though?

molina mike, who is like a bloodhound when it comes to these matters, has come up empty

given that this paper is the immediate reason for WPA actions it would be kind of relevant to produce the paper. shouldn't be hard..

 

[skogstokig]

there was a paragraph cited somewhere (maybe here?) about players shouldn't play in another event called the UK open, or something along that line. but that surely can't be what they mean