Yapp banned from WPA tournament?

Also wildly interesting. I wasn't following the Asian pool scene until now. The regional governing body for Asia used to be the Asian Pocket Billiard Union (APBU) from 1990 until early last year. They had been accusing the WPA of violating it's constitution on these aspects.
  1. WPA is a non-profit that receives 200k-300k annually but refuses to provide a financial report with detailed income and expenditure for members to review
  2. The constitution says all positions are honorary and has a "no salary" clause yet the president had self-motioned the "Anderson Salary Proposal" for $50k per year in addition to already receiving subsidies for air tickets, hotel accommodation, meals, and daily travel allowances.
  3. The constitution requires all decisions made at the general assembly be recorded but Anderson and Singh refused to record the approved "Anderson Salary Proposal" in the minutes.
  4. The minutes and financial reports are to be signed by the directors but the APBU has never been asked to sign a WPA financial report
  5. The WPA constitution states it is organized democratically and refrains from involvement with the internal affairs within the WPA membership but the WPA has bypassed the APBU to negotiate tournaments and sign contracts directly with Asian countries, association, and commercial organizations.
  6. There was an airfare subsidy of $1,500 that went missing in 2010 under suspicion of corruption and the WPA president refused to investigate.
The APBU left the WPA. That's why the ACBS was granted WPA membership. The ACBS has in the past worked with the APBU jointly because while the ACBS did encompass multiple cuesports (snooker, carom and pool), it really was doing nearly nothing with pool as the APBU was specialized to pool and highly active. I don't know where the APBU stands today.

It's also worth noting the old APBU vice president Mohamed Salem Al-Nuaimi is the now current ACBS president.
 
ACBS laws and constitution are not available on its website.

If players cant access the laws or constitution they are governed by, its not a system, thats a blackbox function controlled by its federation.
 
MattPoland said:
Also wildly interesting. I wasn't following the Asian pool scene until now. The regional governing body for Asia used to be the Asian Pocket Billiard Union (APBU) from 1990 until early last year. They had been accusing the WPA of violating it's constitution on these aspects.
  1. WPA is a non-profit that receives 200k-300k annually but refuses to provide a financial report with detailed income and expenditure for members to review
  2. The constitution says all positions are honorary and has a "no salary" clause yet the president had self-motioned the "Anderson Salary Proposal" for $50k per year in addition to already receiving subsidies for air tickets, hotel accommodation, meals, and daily travel allowances.
  3. The constitution requires all decisions made at the general assembly be recorded but Anderson and Singh refused to record the approved "Anderson Salary Proposal" in the minutes.
  4. The minutes and financial reports are to be signed by the directors but the APBU has never been asked to sign a WPA financial report
  5. The WPA constitution states it is organized democratically and refrains from involvement with the internal affairs within the WPA membership but the WPA has bypassed the APBU to negotiate tournaments and sign contracts directly with Asian countries, association, and commercial organizations.
  6. There was an airfare subsidy of $1,500 that went missing in 2010 under suspicion of corruption and the WPA president refused to investigate.
The APBU left the WPA. That's why the ACBS was granted WPA membership. The ACBS has in the past worked with the APBU jointly because while the ACBS did encompass multiple cuesports (snooker, carom and pool), it really was doing nearly nothing with pool as the APBU was specialized to pool and highly active. I don't know where the APBU stands today.

It's also worth noting the old APBU vice president Mohamed Salem Al-Nuaimi is the now current ACBS president.
Click to expand...

You should write an article on this, you are probably the only person in the world to have tied all this together.
 
kling&allen said:
You should write an article on this, you are probably the only person in the world to have tied all this together.
Click to expand...

If AZB can give out press passes, that post qualifies MattPoland as press.

Sadly billiard journalism is independent, going without protection to speak against country members in the ACBS is not advised.

Journalists are the first to be targeted in foreign countries. Especially country members listed in the ACBS.
 
iusedtoberich said:
So the snooker with Ronnie and the Crucible is the MR snooker? And the snooker with the Olympic/govt subsidies is the other tour? And they each have their “world championship”? Is that about right? Do the Ronnie’s play in both or only the MR events?
Click to expand...

no, the IBSF is an organization with an amateur and a junior tour, and has always been. it's not like boxing with multiple organizations with different belts. but the winner of the amateur tour used to get a tour card for the pro tour.

MR snooker in terms of barry hearn being the chairman of the WPBSA ended before the rift i think. imo, it seemed to work well with the IBSF feeding into the pro tour. i don't even remember why they quarreled.

writing and reading about these letter soup orgs makes my eyes bleed. but i see the point in them, it's not like they're power hungry bureaucrats who just want to piss people off. we're not talking high salaries here. but the olympics is a pipe dream, never gonna happen.
 
justnum said:
ACBS laws and constitution are not available on its website.

If players cant access the laws or constitution they are governed by, its not a system, thats a blackbox function controlled by its federation.
Click to expand...
In the WPA constitution, it's voting member are required to submit their constitution in writing to the WPA by February 28th of each year. So the ACBS constitution is either in WPA hands or they are in violation.
 
MattPoland said:
In the WPA constitution, it's voting member are required to submit their constitution in writing to the WPA by February 28th of each year. So the ACBS constitution is either in WPA hands or they are in violation.
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The probationary period for membership should be longer.

A non profit is going to be manhandled by government officials with excessive amounts of bureaucracy.

Can the ACBS can be held accountable to IOC courts ?

The jurisdiction of who can and who cant overrule the ban decision is a quagmire.

I would argue WCBS can overrule in the event of official corruption. IOC has struggled with corruption and still does.

Is this a case of corruption? We will never know because laws are not public and due process is not public.
 
justnum said:
ACBS laws and constitution are not available on its website.

If players cant access the laws or constitution they are governed by, its not a system, thats a blackbox function controlled by its federation.
Click to expand...
Every now and then, you say something that makes sense to me. Kudos.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
Every now and then, you say something that makes sense to me.
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Once a month he makes sense...like the old joke.

A guy gets put in a nursing home by his son. He doesn’t know if he’s going to like it at first, but he decides to give it a shot for his son’s sake.​

renderTimingPixel.png

There is a father and son, and the father is getting too old for the son to take care. He needs to be out into a nursing home. Being a kindhearted and loving son he doesn't just drop him off at any old dump. He takes his time and shops around. And eventually finds a decent place. After getting his father settled in, before leaving the son says,"Dad if you need anything let me know, or if this place isn't top notch, we'll get you out of here and find another place."

Later that day the old man is getting a sponge bath from a one of the nurses and becomes aroused. Out of no where the nurse goes down on him and gives him a blowjob. Immediately afterwards he calls his son and he says,"Son thank you, this place is great. I love it here."

Later that day the old guy is walking down the hall, he slip and falls. And then one of the male orderlys comes of up behind him, pulls his pants down and rapes him right up the butt. Immediately afterwards he calls his son and he says,"Son you got to get me out of here, you got to get me out of here." The son replies,"You just called and said the place was great and you were happy, what the hell?"

The father answers,"I only get turned on once a month, I fall down three times a day!"
 
iusedtoberich said:
So the snooker with Ronnie and the Crucible is the MR snooker? And the snooker with the Olympic/govt subsidies is the other tour? And they each have their “world championship”? Is that about right? Do the Ronnie’s play in both or only the MR events?

In pool, right now WPA sanctions MR’s world championship. If that sanction disappears, then MR would probably continue and have their own “world championship” and WPA would have one also. I can definitely see WPA pulling MR’s sanction and giving it back to “boring as all hell promoters” in Qatar.

I personally think these player bans are ridiculous. All of them. I remember when Jasmin was the hottest player around in 2005 and she got banned for a year or so. The carom players have their own web of bans. And now snooker bans causing pool bans.

As bad as the IPT was, he didn’t ban anyone. MR isn’t banning anyone. The European confederation (according to the linked interview above) isn’t banning anyone. That’s the way it should be.

I wonder if the players can sue all these organizations for limiting their right to work and earn. The juice wouldn’t be worth the squeeze of course.
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Matchroom has 51% ownership of the WST (formerly World Snooker) and 25% ownership of the WPBSA which is the governing body of professional snooker and English Billiards. To be clear, Matchroom didn’t start this organization. They existed when Matchroom was basically just Barry and Steve Davis. But Matchroom did reinvigorate it around 2010 or 2011.

The IBSF traditionally has been the governing body of amateur snooker (tournaments for players without a WST tour card). So the WST world championship with Ronnie is the professional championship contested by 128 players on the tour and the IBSF championship is an amateur championship that is basically contested by the best of the rest.

The billiard issue is less clear because because, unlike snooker, players have competed in both the WPBSA World Billiard Championship AND the IBSF World Championship.

But the IBSF and WPBSA had been at odds for years so the latter pulled the tour spot that traditionally came with winning the IBSF title and has hurt that events prestige in recent years. Meanwhile, they formed a separate set of amateur championships that now awards tour spot to the Under 21 winner and the Open winner.
 
Pool players in the ACBS can be banned for planning to participate in an unsanctioned event.

Wrongful convictions happen a lot in America, but the law to ban for purchasing plane tickets and hotel rentals. That might be worthy of mainstream news.

Sports federation bans players for thinking and making plans.

There was a story about pre crime. Yapp and fellow players are offenders of a pre-crime.
 
kris said:
Not directly related to Singaporean players situation, but kind of "interesting" view..

‘Players can’t earn a living’ – EPBF board member criticises World Nineball Tour model​

absolute-pool.com

‘Players can’t earn a living’ – EPBF board member criticises World Nineball Tour model

European Pocket Billiard Federation (EPBF) board member David Morris has expressed his concerns regarding the World Nineball Tour model.
absolute-pool.com absolute-pool.com

Best,
Kris
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I saw this posted online by someone and Karl Boyes responded in a comment "I said what to who?" implying he did not say anything to that effect or at the least was misquoted in this article.
 
Turf wars can get ugly. Noone knows how this will evolve. The WCBS/WPA and affiliates wish to sell the idea that most of the top pros won't be able to get by without National/Olympic funding. Matchroom envisions a world in which pros can make a big living from competition alone. We'll have to wait until the picture is clarified to fully assess these matters.
 
The story of Butch Reynolds is a case study in how IOC arbitration and officiating is immune to corruption and recourse from players. A case the US became involved in.

Butch Reynolds is not a pool player, just an athlete that was unfairly targeted and not given due process.

Pool is a sport, and for the many countries that support it, a cultural exchange.

Hopefully the pro beat writers like Panozzo and Molina cover the story, or get an interview with an official.
 
BBC article on taekwondo athletes with lifetime ban for suspicion of crime. Court of Arbitration ruled against Taekwondo Federation.

Has any billiard player appealed in the IOC arbitration courts?

quotes dont work from safari atm


At a CAS hearing, WT submitted a 2008 code of ethics for the first time, but the panel considered this to be "inadmissibly, and impermissibly, late", and said insufficient evidence was provided to prove this edition of the code of ethics was published or made available to athletes.
In upholding the Lopez brothers' appeal, CAS said in a statement: "In application of the fundamental legal principle that one cannot be punished for doing something that is not prohibited by law, and in the absence of any relevant applicable disciplinary or ethics rules implemented or published by WT at the time of the alleged violations, the CAS Panel was not in a position to sanction the appellants, even if the Panel was to assume that they had committed an infraction."
 
justnum said:
BBC article on taekwondo athletes with lifetime ban for suspicion of crime. Court of Arbitration ruled against Taekwondo Federation.

Has any billiard player appealed in the IOC arbitration courts?

quotes dont work from safari atm


At a CAS hearing, WT submitted a 2008 code of ethics for the first time, but the panel considered this to be "inadmissibly, and impermissibly, late", and said insufficient evidence was provided to prove this edition of the code of ethics was published or made available to athletes.
In upholding the Lopez brothers' appeal, CAS said in a statement: "In application of the fundamental legal principle that one cannot be punished for doing something that is not prohibited by law, and in the absence of any relevant applicable disciplinary or ethics rules implemented or published by WT at the time of the alleged violations, the CAS Panel was not in a position to sanction the appellants, even if the Panel was to assume that they had committed an infraction."
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That won't work at this point for several reasons. First, the organization for our sport directly under the IOC is the WCBS --- World Confederation of Billiard Cue Sports, whose board members include representatives of the world federations for carom, snooker and pool. Billiards is not in the Olympics, so the IOC will kick it down to the representative organization to handle --- the WCBS. Then you will have representatives for snooker and carom as well as pool making decisions for pool players. Is that what you want to see?

Also, complaining to the IOC puts a stain on the sport.
 
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FranCrimi said:
That won't work at this point for several reasons. First, the organization for our sport directly under the IOC is the WCBS --- World Confederation of Cue Sports, whose board members include representatives of the world federations for carom, snooker and pool. Billiards is not in the Olympics, so the IOC will kick it down to the representative organization to handle --- the WCBS. Then you will have representatives for snooker and carom as well as pool making decisions for pool players. Is that what you want to see?

Also, complaining to the IOC puts a stain on the sport.
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Not complaining has consequences that create precedence for more bans.

I hope to see a procedural discussion for federations hosted by the WCBS on player agreements and appeals. If different federation within billiards exercise different rights the WCBS is the only structure to manage and regulate it.

I hope athletes have more legal proceedings according to global guidelines but administered by local federations. If the IOC created the framework for WCBS to follow, but not maintain oversight, it leaves a power vacuum for federations to own its athletes like property. I just hope to see pool players with more rights in the federation policy making, including participation in sports governing and rulemaking.
 
Big interview with WPA president was just live on the podcast YouTube channel. I caught about 10% of it. It was about 1.5 hrs long. The president was very open. Looks like this is just the beginning.

I personally see MR will lose the world championships, and have their exclusive tour. With prize money bigger than WPA WC.

The players will have to choose MR or WPA. there will NOT be an option to play in both.

Edit: also the region federations will not be able to work with MR at all.
 
The players will choose MR imo. It’s just like the IPT. He who has the money makes the rules. MR has the money today. We’ve all said over and over anyone could take over this sport if the just had a few million dollars to throw at it.

I also see the players going with MR because they will feel slighted by the WPA for forcing their hand by limiting their choice.

NOBODY likes to be told what to do. In sport. In personal relationships. At work. It creates animosity.
 
Everything will be rosy and forgiven if MR pays the sanction fee according to the president.

I don’t see either side giving in.

The players will have to choose. It won’t be a per event basis either. If they play in one (unsanctioned) MR event they will most likely be banned from all future WPA sanctioned events.

I also was not clear if one player’s actions can decide for another. If Filler plays in an unsanctioned MR event and is banned from WPA, does that mean Souquet is also banned (assuming Souquet never plays an unsanctioned event)? It seemed like the bans could be at the federation level, not the individual player level. (Like we are seeing with the Singapore players at the Fermosa open). I’m not clear on this.
 
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