Stan, a question if I may.
Why not just visualize where the cueball has to approach the object ball, and line up to that line of approach?
Yet Another CTE Review
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Why not just visualize where the cueball has to approach the object ball, and line up to that line of approach?
Stan, check your p.m.'s!
That is what I do.....I see objective visuals and very naturally fall into center CB with a left or right PRO ONE pivot.
I am outta here.....
Stan
It goes, without being said, these are many of the gems in one post. Some are bigger than others if you are looking for answers.
Thanks, Stan for the detailed instruction.
Best,
Mike
Of course they can; it's been answered many times.
This system is intended to help get you to the centerball aim line. Adjust from there as usual when spinning the CB for position play.
pj
chgo
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This sounds like Stan is saying the eyes are positioned at a precise location: where the two lines cross (so they can both be seen by just shifting the eyes).
Actually, these two lines do not cross, but OK, let's ignore that detail for now and try to find a way to interpret Stan's description in a way we can work with. Let's say we need to find the place where it seems like we can see along both lines just by shifting our eyes. Will we all choose the same eye location? I'm guessing not, but let's explore both possibilities.
If we all choose the same precise eye location for the same aim line, then the system is limited to six precise aim lines per cut direction (left or right). This is not enough to make even most shots, so an adjustment by feel must be happening in the pivot.
On the other hand, if (because of personal perceptual differences like eye dominance) we each choose a different eye location for the same aim line, then there are plenty of different aim lines, but none of them are "system locations"; they're all just our own personal locations - so an adjustment by feel must be made either in our choice of eye locations or in the pivot (or both).
My own opinion is that we all perceive these non-converging lines differently and learn how to position our eyes and get on the correct aim line from experience (by feel) and we also make fine-tuning adjustments with the pivot. In other words, I believe that positioning the eyes, getting on the aim line and performing the pivot are a series of system steps combined with adjustments by feel.
And I think that Pro One, with all these things done "in the air", is what you "graduate" to when you've internalized all these separate "by feel" adjustments enough so that they can work freely as one "master adjustment", unrestrained by the system steps and procedures that help to learn it in the first place.
And you know what? I think I like it OK. Not necessarily as an "aiming system", but maybe as a "structured learning approach" to aiming. And, as Dr. Dave has said, as an ongoing pre-shot routine to keep the fundamental body/eyes/stick/CB/OB alignment in sight and in mind.
I'd like it even better (and I think it would be learned better and be more generally useful) if it wasn't being mislabeled as an "aiming formula" that mechanically specifies the precise aim for every shot.
pj
chgo
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But what if someone asked you why you don't care for softball? Wouldn't you answer them? They wouldn't care that you're not the greatest authority on the game (they would already know that, since you don't play it) they would just want to know WHY you don't care for it when so many others love it.
I'm just saying that there are many people on here that are curious about PJ's opinions (whether they agree with him, or not) and they keep reading these threads just to see what he has to say.
I also do not favor censorship as long as posters stay within the forum rules. Personally, I hate it when someone disagrees with me, but I have to remember that they still have that right (at least for now). :embarrassed2:
Roger
Everyone gets quiet after Stan posts for some reason lol they are afraid to put there hands up and ask a questions
What is there to be afraid of? Is Stan a bad guy?
Roger
Neil, I don't think this is good information. If your vision center stays alligned with the CTEL, the only way you can force the cue ball edge to coincide with the appropriate aim point is to move your eyes closer to, or further from, the cueball. That is not the way Stan is doing things. Stan knows in advance which aim point to use, and positions his eyes to perceive that aim point at the cueball edge. His vision center cannot then be on the CTEL as you suggest.
I see Stan has posted an explanation. I will study that. I also see PJ as commented on Stan's post. I'll study that too. Thanks for the effort.
What is there to be afraid of? Is Stan a bad guy?
Roger
Good post!!!!! :thumbup::thumbup:
Pj let us help you learn the system, work with us lol and later on you can figure out all the stuff that interests you about the system and show us
i already told you i can tell you like the system by just reading your review one at a time you will all come over, sooner or later lol kidding
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Questions
Randy - I am hoping to be able to make it to one of your classes, I respect your knowledge of the game and ability to teach it. I think that one important distinction is that most people are pointing out the lack of coherent information on the subject. I think it is hard to pick apart the system if you don't understand it.
I've watched the DVD, I've played the shots for a while.
If someone could answer these questions, I'd appreciate it.
1. Speaking in terms of ghostball - it is obvious to me that the ghostball position (relative to the ob) changes slightly if you move the ob. How does CTE take into account the location of the pocket in lining up the shot?
2. I am used to seeing 2 lines, the c-c line and the contact point-contact point line. These are two fixed lines on the table, and don't require pivots and body movement (while down on the shot) to get in line. What advantages do CTE offer in using different "eye" lines?
3. Does this system work when kicking at a ball? Do you pivot at a diamond?
4. Shouldn't the pivot dimension (angle) change if the distance between cb-ob changes for two comparable cut shots?
5. I use the ghostball position for aiming, and a combination of bhe/fhe for putting english on the ball. This gets me the ability to make the ball and get shape. Does does this work on CTE. Do you pivot twice?
6. How do you account for throw with CTE?
7. When shooting straight in shots, I aim at the bottom of the ob. Seems like the most obvious point on the ball. Is this wrong?
8. My friend is approximately 1/2 ball off on aim when shooting long shots. People perceive straight lines differently. Is this inherent in CTE also?
9. Can people actually make the "impossible cut shot" (this seems like the hardest shot to aim) using CTE?
I really am a guy that uses systems. I use the ghostball system, BHE/FHE system, and diamond systems for banks/kicks. These are easily explained, and I comprehended them pretty quickly. I'd like CTE to be an easy system for making balls, but I can't even remember whether I should pivot right or left on any given shot. I'm forced to stick with ghostball until I go to randy's school. I learn by doing, maybe I'm not going to learn CTE by videos because I don't understand what I'm looking at. I'd like to watch someone's alignment when they are using CTE to see the adjustments and aim.
Randy - I am hoping to be able to make it to one of your classes, I respect your knowledge of the game and ability to teach it. I think that one important distinction is that most people are pointing out the lack of coherent information on the subject. I think it is hard to pick apart the system if you don't understand it.
I've watched the DVD, I've played the shots for a while.
If someone could answer these questions, I'd appreciate it.
1. Speaking in terms of ghostball - it is obvious to me that the ghostball position (relative to the ob) changes slightly if you move the ob. How does CTE take into account the location of the pocket in lining up the shot?
2. I am used to seeing 2 lines, the c-c line and the contact point-contact point line. These are two fixed lines on the table, and don't require pivots and body movement (while down on the shot) to get in line. What advantages do CTE offer in using different "eye" lines?
3. Does this system work when kicking at a ball? Do you pivot at a diamond?
4. Shouldn't the pivot dimension (angle) change if the distance between cb-ob changes for two comparable cut shots?
5. I use the ghostball position for aiming, and a combination of bhe/fhe for putting english on the ball. This gets me the ability to make the ball and get shape. Does does this work on CTE. Do you pivot twice?
6. How do you account for throw with CTE?
7. When shooting straight in shots, I aim at the bottom of the ob. Seems like the most obvious point on the ball. Is this wrong?
8. My friend is approximately 1/2 ball off on aim when shooting long shots. People perceive straight lines differently. Is this inherent in CTE also?
9. Can people actually make the "impossible cut shot" (this seems like the hardest shot to aim) using CTE?
I really am a guy that uses systems. I use the ghostball system, BHE/FHE system, and diamond systems for banks/kicks. These are easily explained, and I comprehended them pretty quickly. I'd like CTE to be an easy system for making balls, but I can't even remember whether I should pivot right or left on any given shot. I'm forced to stick with ghostball until I go to randy's school. I learn by doing, maybe I'm not going to learn CTE by videos because I don't understand what I'm looking at. I'd like to watch someone's alignment when they are using CTE to see the adjustments and aim.
Have you posted "PART II" yet? Please post a link here when it is available so people following this discussion can easily find "PART II."
Thanks,
Dave
Thanks,
Dave
Haven't had the time yet to post PART II, but I still plan to do that in the next few days. I think I'll make it a new thread so I'm not burying the "good news" deep in another long CTE thread.
pj
chgo
OK, I'm 2 days and 9 pages late to the party, but here's my 2 cents:
I played around with some CTE and 90/90 stuff about 2 years ago, talked to Ron V and Dave and they were both very helpful, and while I had some limited success I guess I was too analytical in my approach and "didn't get it". I quit playing (busy work schedule) for about a year, just got back into it and saw that Stan released a DVD of his system and all of these threads. I got the DVD and was excited to watch it and learn, especially since I had talked to Stan once about coming for lessons.
After watching it a few times - I totally agree with the initial post by Patrick. The third time I watched it, focusing mostly on the first 10 - 13 chapters so as not to get ahead of myself, I paused the DVD and wrote down all of the shots as well as questions I had that confirmed why I was so confused. Dave, Joey, and John have been kind enough to respond to some emails, but after my last viewing I realize now it wasn't just me. There are key points in the DVD where some nebulous statements are made (which Patrick already quoted) which to an analytical OCD person like me is what caused the confusion. However, I worked past that and followed the suggestions I was given (without which I would have been completely lost) and spent 2 hours at the table last week trying all of the reference shots.
I have to say - I made most of the reference shots first try, and if not was able to reset and work harder on the "visuals" and made it on the second or third try. Most of the shots are easy anyway, but a few (like the 2-way shot to the side and corner and the cross bank to the corner) are not automatic and I found the pivoting somehow did get me into the correct or very close position. Of course I could get there my way too, but to have a double check like this was nice. I also tried the Pro One reference shots, but I didn't go any further because all of the suggestions seems to be to work with the manual method a while first. I'm going to continue to work with it to make sure I'm following the system as it should be and not just pivoting and stopping when my eyes tell me I'm lined up correctly, although if some of that happens that's probably okay too, just starting from a defined point (CTE) can be helpful I think to really focus on aiming.
I have to say I really do want this to work, even if I don't use it exclusively, as a double check or on certain shots that don't look right it would be great. Hopefully any future questions I have will continue to be answered as I spend time with this. I think there is some confusion from the DVD, although Stan did present a lot of material in a concise way, but a few sentences or clarifications or camera angles could have cleared up some of the questions. Maybe that would have been worse, though, since it wouldn't have spawned all of the discussions...
I liken this to cooking, something else I'm relatively new at. I can certainly read a recipe, gather the ingredients, etc., but when the author of the recipe says to "deglaze the wine" or "fold gently" or "cook until done" they are assuming a level of knowledge and experience that I don't possess. What the hell is "deglaze"? When is it "done"? Then I get to ask my wife stupid questions... I think CTE/Pro One is similar, there is a level of familiarity by people who use it or understand it that is just missing to some of us, we want step by step instructions (look here, put your cue here, pivot here) and the system is just not like that, as Stan says it's very visual in nature and from what I've seen the Pro One pivot is a very fluid movement that has to be seen and is hard to describe. Since I only know a few of you personally, the only thing extra I can try to bring to the table is to remove any emotions from the questions and just get to the bottom of the details to make this work (or not) for me. I would love to get this to work and ultimately understand more about the how and why to be able to expain it better to people looking for answers.
Thanks,
Scott
I played around with some CTE and 90/90 stuff about 2 years ago, talked to Ron V and Dave and they were both very helpful, and while I had some limited success I guess I was too analytical in my approach and "didn't get it". I quit playing (busy work schedule) for about a year, just got back into it and saw that Stan released a DVD of his system and all of these threads. I got the DVD and was excited to watch it and learn, especially since I had talked to Stan once about coming for lessons.
After watching it a few times - I totally agree with the initial post by Patrick. The third time I watched it, focusing mostly on the first 10 - 13 chapters so as not to get ahead of myself, I paused the DVD and wrote down all of the shots as well as questions I had that confirmed why I was so confused. Dave, Joey, and John have been kind enough to respond to some emails, but after my last viewing I realize now it wasn't just me. There are key points in the DVD where some nebulous statements are made (which Patrick already quoted) which to an analytical OCD person like me is what caused the confusion. However, I worked past that and followed the suggestions I was given (without which I would have been completely lost) and spent 2 hours at the table last week trying all of the reference shots.
I have to say - I made most of the reference shots first try, and if not was able to reset and work harder on the "visuals" and made it on the second or third try. Most of the shots are easy anyway, but a few (like the 2-way shot to the side and corner and the cross bank to the corner) are not automatic and I found the pivoting somehow did get me into the correct or very close position. Of course I could get there my way too, but to have a double check like this was nice. I also tried the Pro One reference shots, but I didn't go any further because all of the suggestions seems to be to work with the manual method a while first. I'm going to continue to work with it to make sure I'm following the system as it should be and not just pivoting and stopping when my eyes tell me I'm lined up correctly, although if some of that happens that's probably okay too, just starting from a defined point (CTE) can be helpful I think to really focus on aiming.
I have to say I really do want this to work, even if I don't use it exclusively, as a double check or on certain shots that don't look right it would be great. Hopefully any future questions I have will continue to be answered as I spend time with this. I think there is some confusion from the DVD, although Stan did present a lot of material in a concise way, but a few sentences or clarifications or camera angles could have cleared up some of the questions. Maybe that would have been worse, though, since it wouldn't have spawned all of the discussions...
I liken this to cooking, something else I'm relatively new at. I can certainly read a recipe, gather the ingredients, etc., but when the author of the recipe says to "deglaze the wine" or "fold gently" or "cook until done" they are assuming a level of knowledge and experience that I don't possess. What the hell is "deglaze"? When is it "done"? Then I get to ask my wife stupid questions... I think CTE/Pro One is similar, there is a level of familiarity by people who use it or understand it that is just missing to some of us, we want step by step instructions (look here, put your cue here, pivot here) and the system is just not like that, as Stan says it's very visual in nature and from what I've seen the Pro One pivot is a very fluid movement that has to be seen and is hard to describe. Since I only know a few of you personally, the only thing extra I can try to bring to the table is to remove any emotions from the questions and just get to the bottom of the details to make this work (or not) for me. I would love to get this to work and ultimately understand more about the how and why to be able to expain it better to people looking for answers.
Thanks,
Scott
5. I use the ghostball position for aiming, and a combination of bhe/fhe for putting english on the ball. This gets me the ability to make the ball and get shape. Does does this work on CTE. Do you pivot twice?
Great question.
Great question.
It's been answered over and over (and is pretty obvious to begin with).
Yes.
Yes.
pj
chgo
You deglaze the pan, not the wine. The wine is the deglazing liquid, usually a liquid with some kind of acidity, but not necessarily.
HTH,
Fred
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