I didn't even know people went around the country working on pool tables. Thanks for the video, I'll add it to my watch list for later viewing.
You get what you pay for!
- Thread starter realkingcobra
- Start date
I didn't even know people went around the country working on pool tables. Thanks for the video, I'll add it to my watch list for later viewing.
I lived on the road working on pool tables all over the country for 14 years.
snookered_again
Well-known member
Home | ShamWow
ShamWow! cloths was, dry, and polish any surface. They are like a towel, chamois, and sponge all in one--except they're extremely asobent and can be used over and over.
snookered_again
Well-known member
I wonder how impregnating the rail cloth with so much superglue affects things. looks pretty quick and dirty to me. Staples aren't that expensive, I'd rather spend the time doing that properly than have my rails pre-soaked in sticky spray glue.
Who are you replying to?
snookered_again
Well-known member
the thing here is
the fabric is supposed to be taught, but it can move, that allows dust a way out. If you saturate the cloth with glue it will mean the cloth is stuck down with a glue layer under it, next the edges get dirty. the trapped dust cant' move or fall out. also the ball has some intended slippage, screwing things up by introducing glue all over and into the cloth isn't helping things. there are many great videos online on how its normally done, How the cloth is stretched particularly the corner pockets is important to get the cloth to lay right.
What are you talking about, the cloth is saturated with glue?
The sprayglue holds the cloth stuck to the back of the rails, stapled ends completely finish the rails. Then the rails are BOLTED to the rail cap, securing the rails in place. What are you talking about when you say the dust has to have room to go where? Between the rails and the rail cap they're bolted to? Do you have any idea the damage done to rails from repeatedly putting in staples, then pulling them out, only to put them back in again? Tell me something, that's the lifespan of Valley rails on coin operated pool tables when recovering at least once a year. I'll tell you what you WON'T see, and that's the sagging cloth between the staples on the tops and bottoms of the rails from being secured with staples!
I don't know what you do for a living, but it can't be working on pool tables! Even VALLEY glues the rail cloth at the factory!!
I reread what you posted again, are you referring to my installing the bed cloth, when you're talking about the dust getting trapped? I don't use sprayglue installing the bed cloth, I don't put glue on the surface of the slate, I only apply it to the edge of the slate and under the pocket shelfs. But I do scrape off all the sprayglue used before my work, as it has no place on the slate at all!
My GC2 I had in IL had new cloth installed by a pool hall owner who took a seminar or class or something with RKC.
That table played top notch. I helped him apply the adhesive and stretch the cloth. I was 100% happy with how it turned out.
That table played top notch. I helped him apply the adhesive and stretch the cloth. I was 100% happy with how it turned out.
Last edited:
snookered_again
Well-known member
sprayglue is fast, that's why it is used now. The 1908 table I'm working on has no traces of spray glue. It was never used, I found a few tacks, mostly tiny staples. It had no large staples like used in an office or construction style stapler, all tiny ones. I think it was always recovered professionally.
spray-glue might be used under the rails if it helps you . I would not go impregnating my rail cloth with spray glue like you do on your video. not the parts of the cloth that the ball touches. There are lots of fee videos online showing how to staple them in the traditional manor. pool tables far outdate spray glue.
It's not that uncommon for someone to think that because they have had experience that they know best and to continue to do things in the same manor. I believe in lifelong learning but have met many who arent interested in further learning as they feel they now know everything.
I took a course on instructing adults, one difference in teaching adults, especially older adults Is that they tend to need to know "why they need to learn" new things so they will listen to instruction. I found this to be very true and not immediately apparent. It's important then , when teaching adults to let them know why they need to know this, and without that you may see a bunch of glazed over eyes.
Its very common for people to talk over others and in the process of doing so , fail to attain new information. It sounds like your experience has caused you to somewhat block new info from others and instead automatically suggest that you know best. Perhaps its just my perception , maybe so?
If this is part of your personality, likely that will never change. Personally I have learned lots of things from younger people with lesser experience. I work with range of people of different trades and intellects from highly skilled engineers to lowly production workers in factories. I try to never block new knowledge just because of a person's experience, I would take their experience into account, but I try not to put on my blinders.
I tend to take all the info in on a subject that I can from a variety of sources and what I do is use logical reasoning to select my methodology. Oh yes there is definitely a lot of bad advice contained in online video but if you watch many , its surprising what one can learn and accumulate. Yes there is a lot out there which is unprofessional, self advertising gimmics, annoying music etc. Many can be hard to watch.
I try not to let such boundaries hamper my learning abilities. If one finds themselves over-talking others then they tend to also be blocking what they say , and thus hamper their own learning abilities. Its a very common situation especially with elders with outgoing personalities. .
My suggestion is that you try watching a bunch of other people's you-tube videos on how others in the industry recover rails, note the differences in how your approach. I bet if you do you will learn some new things.
It might be unusual for you to hear such a comment. Many will just blink and nod as they have had experiences with dealing with people who know it all , most often they won't be so outward as to say anything about it. I think what is not obvious is that people tend to see right through that and realize that the "know it all" has actually missed a lot due to their inherent lack of ability to listen to others. This can affect the listeners ( or your customer's ) confidence.
You might find yourself blocking what I am saying and trying to use your wealth of experience as a reason. That has an accumulative effect as it makes others realize you have such a learning disability , although they won't call you out on it, they will often nod and think it to themselves as this is considered more polite than being straightforward and giving a response to it.
Looking within to realize that not listening is a personal fault is hard for some to admit, especially to themselves.
I've heard it said in a simple manor, by instructors before, that "If your lips are movin', you ain't learnin'. "
here's a little example of my approach, Most of my career centers around repair of various complex machinery, I have to do a lot of problem solving and diagnosis. If I walk into a situation where an unskilled laborer is operating a machine. I don't consider him on the same level as I am because I have a wealth of experience troubleshooting various machine issues. i have may hours of training and many courses under my belt. He might not even be able to read !
I'll still take the time to ask him what he thinks the cause of the problem is. he's probably so in tune with the machinery that any little difference in noise he will notice. Take the covers off the machine and he is mystified with all the inner workings.
Although he has a very weak technical skill-set I'll still listen and interact with him and get his opinions, I'll note the problems with him, hear his complaints or issues.. when I am done repairs I'll have him or myself demonstrate by operating the equipment, and this methodology will prove to both of us the problem is resolved. I get very few call backs that way. a big part is using my listening ability , another big part is my extensive field experience. Other than fixing the mechanical issue I also like to feel the customer feels he has been heard and have that communication to assure this. This has a lot of affect on the customers satisfaction.
I've seen other experienced techs ignore the operator with the reasoning he's just a production worker so what does he know? I've also seen issues where a fellow highly skilled technical engineer spent all day fixing the incorrect issue due to lack of communication. Try to bill for a situation like that !
If you like to use spray glue to attach the cloth to the slate , you can do that. it is common. I'd keep the spray glue off the rubber side of the rails , I don't think it belongs there.
snooker tables are a different from others because the cloth is different. there are some different approaches and Ive seen some fairly detailed written procedures on how to apply the stretch to attain the best results. I saw one really good video on doing the rails where it was pointed out how to stretch the cloth in order to make the curvature come out without wrinkling and I know some different types of cloth have different stretch characteristics. I dont think there can be a set of blanket instructions that cover all tables well.
To do it right, some differences in technique will apply due to the differences between tables and cloth used. on some tables there is more stretch in the cloth to work with, in some cases there needs to be enough gather in the middle to draw the center pockets down without need for "coverups" There are more than a few a few considerations that may change methodology. The details around that could be an interesting topic.
I think the real purpose of having a public forum is to try to share information freely. a lot seems more like self advertising or some sort of weird attitude about people being right because of a certain amount of experience.. I've met some older people who were conditioned to not share what they coined as "trade secrets" to protect their career or business. I've run into situations where people still thought this way , it can be a generational problem. Daddy taught me not to share the details of my trade to protect my trade.. That sort of attitude can be still prevalent.
I've also learned a lot from people who have a more open attitude towards sharing ideas and info. I prefer the latter myself.
if I'm taught to do things a certain way, what doesnt' resonate with me is because thats how I was shown or because thats the way its done. I tend to need to see the real reasoning behind that choice..
as I do things, I also tend to brainstorm and look for easier ways or try to think of better ways. Often over the course of a longer job ill have my methodology more fine tuned than when I started. If I'm told to do things a certain way I'll tend to wonder why that way is better. I need the "why"
otherwise I experiment and take note on even the most minor differences.
speed is indeed another factor. If I'm at home doing some work on my own table I wont approach things the same as I would if I am on the job being paid out at 200 per hour for my expertise. If I'm on my own doing my own thing I couldn't care less if the job took twice as long. I'm probably quite enjoying it anyway and it is not my bread and butter. This isn't at all the same situation as being hired and watched and compared to other tradespeople on price over production. This will also affect the appropriate methodology taken.
spray-glue might be used under the rails if it helps you . I would not go impregnating my rail cloth with spray glue like you do on your video. not the parts of the cloth that the ball touches. There are lots of fee videos online showing how to staple them in the traditional manor. pool tables far outdate spray glue.
It's not that uncommon for someone to think that because they have had experience that they know best and to continue to do things in the same manor. I believe in lifelong learning but have met many who arent interested in further learning as they feel they now know everything.
I took a course on instructing adults, one difference in teaching adults, especially older adults Is that they tend to need to know "why they need to learn" new things so they will listen to instruction. I found this to be very true and not immediately apparent. It's important then , when teaching adults to let them know why they need to know this, and without that you may see a bunch of glazed over eyes.
Its very common for people to talk over others and in the process of doing so , fail to attain new information. It sounds like your experience has caused you to somewhat block new info from others and instead automatically suggest that you know best. Perhaps its just my perception , maybe so?
If this is part of your personality, likely that will never change. Personally I have learned lots of things from younger people with lesser experience. I work with range of people of different trades and intellects from highly skilled engineers to lowly production workers in factories. I try to never block new knowledge just because of a person's experience, I would take their experience into account, but I try not to put on my blinders.
I tend to take all the info in on a subject that I can from a variety of sources and what I do is use logical reasoning to select my methodology. Oh yes there is definitely a lot of bad advice contained in online video but if you watch many , its surprising what one can learn and accumulate. Yes there is a lot out there which is unprofessional, self advertising gimmics, annoying music etc. Many can be hard to watch.
I try not to let such boundaries hamper my learning abilities. If one finds themselves over-talking others then they tend to also be blocking what they say , and thus hamper their own learning abilities. Its a very common situation especially with elders with outgoing personalities. .
My suggestion is that you try watching a bunch of other people's you-tube videos on how others in the industry recover rails, note the differences in how your approach. I bet if you do you will learn some new things.
It might be unusual for you to hear such a comment. Many will just blink and nod as they have had experiences with dealing with people who know it all , most often they won't be so outward as to say anything about it. I think what is not obvious is that people tend to see right through that and realize that the "know it all" has actually missed a lot due to their inherent lack of ability to listen to others. This can affect the listeners ( or your customer's ) confidence.
You might find yourself blocking what I am saying and trying to use your wealth of experience as a reason. That has an accumulative effect as it makes others realize you have such a learning disability , although they won't call you out on it, they will often nod and think it to themselves as this is considered more polite than being straightforward and giving a response to it.
Looking within to realize that not listening is a personal fault is hard for some to admit, especially to themselves.
I've heard it said in a simple manor, by instructors before, that "If your lips are movin', you ain't learnin'. "
here's a little example of my approach, Most of my career centers around repair of various complex machinery, I have to do a lot of problem solving and diagnosis. If I walk into a situation where an unskilled laborer is operating a machine. I don't consider him on the same level as I am because I have a wealth of experience troubleshooting various machine issues. i have may hours of training and many courses under my belt. He might not even be able to read !
I'll still take the time to ask him what he thinks the cause of the problem is. he's probably so in tune with the machinery that any little difference in noise he will notice. Take the covers off the machine and he is mystified with all the inner workings.
Although he has a very weak technical skill-set I'll still listen and interact with him and get his opinions, I'll note the problems with him, hear his complaints or issues.. when I am done repairs I'll have him or myself demonstrate by operating the equipment, and this methodology will prove to both of us the problem is resolved. I get very few call backs that way. a big part is using my listening ability , another big part is my extensive field experience. Other than fixing the mechanical issue I also like to feel the customer feels he has been heard and have that communication to assure this. This has a lot of affect on the customers satisfaction.
I've seen other experienced techs ignore the operator with the reasoning he's just a production worker so what does he know? I've also seen issues where a fellow highly skilled technical engineer spent all day fixing the incorrect issue due to lack of communication. Try to bill for a situation like that !
If you like to use spray glue to attach the cloth to the slate , you can do that. it is common. I'd keep the spray glue off the rubber side of the rails , I don't think it belongs there.
snooker tables are a different from others because the cloth is different. there are some different approaches and Ive seen some fairly detailed written procedures on how to apply the stretch to attain the best results. I saw one really good video on doing the rails where it was pointed out how to stretch the cloth in order to make the curvature come out without wrinkling and I know some different types of cloth have different stretch characteristics. I dont think there can be a set of blanket instructions that cover all tables well.
To do it right, some differences in technique will apply due to the differences between tables and cloth used. on some tables there is more stretch in the cloth to work with, in some cases there needs to be enough gather in the middle to draw the center pockets down without need for "coverups" There are more than a few a few considerations that may change methodology. The details around that could be an interesting topic.
I think the real purpose of having a public forum is to try to share information freely. a lot seems more like self advertising or some sort of weird attitude about people being right because of a certain amount of experience.. I've met some older people who were conditioned to not share what they coined as "trade secrets" to protect their career or business. I've run into situations where people still thought this way , it can be a generational problem. Daddy taught me not to share the details of my trade to protect my trade.. That sort of attitude can be still prevalent.
I've also learned a lot from people who have a more open attitude towards sharing ideas and info. I prefer the latter myself.
if I'm taught to do things a certain way, what doesnt' resonate with me is because thats how I was shown or because thats the way its done. I tend to need to see the real reasoning behind that choice..
as I do things, I also tend to brainstorm and look for easier ways or try to think of better ways. Often over the course of a longer job ill have my methodology more fine tuned than when I started. If I'm told to do things a certain way I'll tend to wonder why that way is better. I need the "why"
otherwise I experiment and take note on even the most minor differences.
speed is indeed another factor. If I'm at home doing some work on my own table I wont approach things the same as I would if I am on the job being paid out at 200 per hour for my expertise. If I'm on my own doing my own thing I couldn't care less if the job took twice as long. I'm probably quite enjoying it anyway and it is not my bread and butter. This isn't at all the same situation as being hired and watched and compared to other tradespeople on price over production. This will also affect the appropriate methodology taken.
If this is directed to RKC you have the right to object/disagree, not like what he says or how he says it….but to most people we don’t lend him the tools … he lends them to us. RKC is not Joe Blow. He wrote the book
First thing I want to do is check your eye sight. Point out I'm my video where I've put spray glue on the cloth, situated at that, where the balls come into contact with the cloth! You're full of shit, when it comes to the billiards industry. I don't know what your real background is, but clearly isn't NOT working on pool tables! I don't need to see others videos on working on pool tables, I've spent 40+ years following behind that very sort of work, fixing and repairing it!
It's BECAUSE I have 40 years experience that I'm able to produce videos and pass on my knowledge, I done GUESS how to work on pool tables!
You sir, are the longest winded, talking about nothing to do with working on pool tables, I've ever read anything from! In all the other professions you spoke of, they all have manuals, diagrams, and diagnostics in order to problem solve. Guess what, that DONT exist in the billiards industry, and NEVER has!!
It's BECAUSE I have 40 years experience that I'm able to produce videos and pass on my knowledge, I done GUESS how to work on pool tables!
You sir, are the longest winded, talking about nothing to do with working on pool tables, I've ever read anything from! In all the other professions you spoke of, they all have manuals, diagrams, and diagnostics in order to problem solve. Guess what, that DONT exist in the billiards industry, and NEVER has!!
snookered_again
Well-known member
pool often brings out a variety of personality types and backgrounds. I tend to need to know the "why" , other than fast he claims the tables he is covering have particleboard rails that are damaged by repeat stapling. I know that's probably how many are being made now.
I personally hate the stuff, my house and everything in it is free of particleboard and most plastics. , If I find an object made from it I get rid of it and I love antiques. when I restore antiques I like to try to use more traditional methods where they make sense, as an example Id never put polyurethane on an antique.
I may even use tacks and a tack hammer in preference of a upholstery stapler if the antique predated staples. come to think of it my table actually may predate automatic staple guns, which is why I found a few, and traces of many others ..
An upholsterer of that time period would put tacks in his mouth and spit them out one at a time onto a magnetized tack hammer. This was to free his hands. he can't tension the cloth and use two hands to hold a tack and drive it.
the antidote to swallowing staples is to eat a bunch of cotton batten. Upholsterers of the time were very fast at spitting staples. That's probably original to my table although Id' likely resort to using a modern stapler, since they are unseen and perhaps less damaging. Im doing some chairs of the same era and for those I did buy tacks because I want to follow the original practices. No plastics, horehair , hemp rope, webbing, leather, silk wool, metal was used for springs and tacks.
all they had were products that were biodegradable. Original practices of the day used no plastics as they weren't invented. If we were to use the same practices today we wouldn't be tossing plastic from furniture into landfills and we continue to do it to date at a very high rate.
I have a professional upholsterer across my alley, he does it all day long and on weekends he does some projects at home for others. hes good at what he does but he only works on modern junk furniture foam and plywood and real garbage. he often asks me to fix various things and we have a good rapport so I showed him the old english armchair in doing. its almost exactly the same as the one used on "the christmos carol" quite rare now. A pretty advanced project for a beginner. I watched a ton of videos on that, Its been interesting to learn about. It took so long that i slid it aside, I just needed time with other projects and dont care to rush it along. I came to the realization my neighbor cant; really help with it or if he did he's automatically resort to using foam and tacks and modern techniques. there is no money or profit in this sort of restoration its purely a labor of love but something I enjoy.
TKC did say that the particleboard degradation is his reasoning for the use of spray glue. That at least gave me the "why" on that and it helped me understand his perspective. He's not able to choose better quality rails, the ones he has there are made similar to a modern kitchen countertop where particleboard and a vinyl cover are heated and pressed into shape in a factory. ive seen quite a few such tables later suffer from the laminate delaminating from the particleboard. the other issue with particleboard is if it gets wet it suffers from elaphantisis. a pool table shouldnt get wet but then someone can have a spill or a sprinkler can get triggered. things happen, it may be stored where humidity isn't ideal and suffer from that. It just is what it is, Ikea quality, likely but not necessarily made in china type products.
and he has to recover a table in a time which is acceptable to his customers. He can't afford to use techniques a museum may use in antique restoration, It has to be done in a number of hours, not days. This is not a labor of love it's a business and likely a difficult one due to many getting rid of tables.
Im seeing free tables here every week, one was just posted with a guy who was upset because of people saying they wanted and walking away. he had pics of a partially disassembled vintage 1 piece slate and it looked like the people who were taking it for free walked away after realizing the weight they were up against. they arent; going to hire apool table mover, the thing is worthless. I've seen several offers of very nice snooker tables lately, no one has room, so many are being dumped now.
His techniques reflect reasonable choices considering his options. I believe he has some experience under his belt. I don't think these same techniques apply to every situation.
I personally hate the stuff, my house and everything in it is free of particleboard and most plastics. , If I find an object made from it I get rid of it and I love antiques. when I restore antiques I like to try to use more traditional methods where they make sense, as an example Id never put polyurethane on an antique.
I may even use tacks and a tack hammer in preference of a upholstery stapler if the antique predated staples. come to think of it my table actually may predate automatic staple guns, which is why I found a few, and traces of many others ..
An upholsterer of that time period would put tacks in his mouth and spit them out one at a time onto a magnetized tack hammer. This was to free his hands. he can't tension the cloth and use two hands to hold a tack and drive it.
the antidote to swallowing staples is to eat a bunch of cotton batten. Upholsterers of the time were very fast at spitting staples. That's probably original to my table although Id' likely resort to using a modern stapler, since they are unseen and perhaps less damaging. Im doing some chairs of the same era and for those I did buy tacks because I want to follow the original practices. No plastics, horehair , hemp rope, webbing, leather, silk wool, metal was used for springs and tacks.
all they had were products that were biodegradable. Original practices of the day used no plastics as they weren't invented. If we were to use the same practices today we wouldn't be tossing plastic from furniture into landfills and we continue to do it to date at a very high rate.
I have a professional upholsterer across my alley, he does it all day long and on weekends he does some projects at home for others. hes good at what he does but he only works on modern junk furniture foam and plywood and real garbage. he often asks me to fix various things and we have a good rapport so I showed him the old english armchair in doing. its almost exactly the same as the one used on "the christmos carol" quite rare now. A pretty advanced project for a beginner. I watched a ton of videos on that, Its been interesting to learn about. It took so long that i slid it aside, I just needed time with other projects and dont care to rush it along. I came to the realization my neighbor cant; really help with it or if he did he's automatically resort to using foam and tacks and modern techniques. there is no money or profit in this sort of restoration its purely a labor of love but something I enjoy.
TKC did say that the particleboard degradation is his reasoning for the use of spray glue. That at least gave me the "why" on that and it helped me understand his perspective. He's not able to choose better quality rails, the ones he has there are made similar to a modern kitchen countertop where particleboard and a vinyl cover are heated and pressed into shape in a factory. ive seen quite a few such tables later suffer from the laminate delaminating from the particleboard. the other issue with particleboard is if it gets wet it suffers from elaphantisis. a pool table shouldnt get wet but then someone can have a spill or a sprinkler can get triggered. things happen, it may be stored where humidity isn't ideal and suffer from that. It just is what it is, Ikea quality, likely but not necessarily made in china type products.
and he has to recover a table in a time which is acceptable to his customers. He can't afford to use techniques a museum may use in antique restoration, It has to be done in a number of hours, not days. This is not a labor of love it's a business and likely a difficult one due to many getting rid of tables.
Im seeing free tables here every week, one was just posted with a guy who was upset because of people saying they wanted and walking away. he had pics of a partially disassembled vintage 1 piece slate and it looked like the people who were taking it for free walked away after realizing the weight they were up against. they arent; going to hire apool table mover, the thing is worthless. I've seen several offers of very nice snooker tables lately, no one has room, so many are being dumped now.
His techniques reflect reasonable choices considering his options. I believe he has some experience under his belt. I don't think these same techniques apply to every situation.
I'm thinking he only watched the first part where the rail cloth is sprayed.... With the rails laid out on the table that's covered and didn't realize the bed cloth is old cloth.
For RKC: Another assumption concerning the "place for Dust to go" My assumptions is he's talking about chalk dust that can't get past where you sprayed glue on the old cloth when preparing the rail cloth.
For snookered: My personal opinion, which is a war I'll never win. We should be vacuuming the chalk dust before it penetrates the cloth and is sitting on the slate. Watch the entire video if you haven't. If you did,???
snookered_again
Well-known member
" I don't need to see others videos on working on pool tables"
- that reinforced my point. You think you know it all, it shows you are also very rude indeed.
"You're full of shit,"
- yes you are indeed a very rude person. You made that clear at least.
I sure would not elect to do business with such a character.
A bit too much glue inhalation maybe?
- that reinforced my point. You think you know it all, it shows you are also very rude indeed.
"You're full of shit,"
- yes you are indeed a very rude person. You made that clear at least.
I sure would not elect to do business with such a character.
A bit too much glue inhalation maybe?
My last comment.
Isn't this (in Bold) what you said Old People do.
I'm an old people but I'm still listening when it comes to mechanic'n for all trades.
I also teach certain areas of mechanic'n. Of course normally my way only.
Look buddy, I don't work on particle board tables, don't work on rails made out of particle board, don't even know where you got your information about rails I'm working on are made of particle board! Correct your statement by showing some proof about my use of the word particle board and rails in the same sentence!!!
No, I'm allergic to stupidity, it sets me off!!
How about you show some of the mechanic work you've done on pool tables, I'd be interested in seeing some of your work, maybe I can learn something from you, what do you think?
