Your Break Speed

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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
just curious about the break speed some posters are talking about. when i read about how someone breaks 22-25 MPH, or will hit 30, etc, etc, i am curious as to whether or not you have actually had your break speed tested on a radar gun? or whether you are guessing?

reason being is when i had my break speed measured at Mark Wilson's Billiard Bullpen in December of 2004 i was alot slower than what i thought. i averaged around 17 mph, and when i hit what i thought was a really hard break it was only clocked at 19 mph. these speeds kinda surprised me.

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
just curious about the break speed some posters are talking about. when i read about how someone breaks 22-25 MPH, or will hit 30, etc, etc, i am curious as to whether or not you have actually had your break speed tested on a radar gun? or whether you are guessing?

reason being is when i had my break speed measured at Mark Wilson's Billiard Bullpen in December of 2004 i was alot slower than what i thought. i averaged around 17 mph, and when i hit what i thought was a really hard break it was only clocked at 19 mph. these speeds kinda surprised me.

DCP
Click to expand...
I've never been tested but I did watch the break contest at the BCA a couple of years ago and the ones I saw in the 22-25 MPH range looked to be slower than what I usually do. I don't break as hard as I can though, I try to control the CB into the middle of the table the way it should be done. When I do break and let the CB go, I think I can get up to 28, maybe even 30, but that's just a guesstimate.
 
Clocked

While in Vegas at the APA I entered the Break Contest...

Best Control: 18-19 MPH
Hardest I Could Hit (no idea where): 23 MPH

I think a 29 MPH won it, not even close.

Mike
 
I had my break clocked once at the suggestion of a friend.

On an 80% break I was recorded at 24 mph. Not bad. I feel like my break has gotten better in the past year and I'd like to try again. If I could get in the upper 20s I'd be happy.
 
Quite some time ....

The only time I was timed was in Vegas 16 years ago. I had speeds of
26,28, and 32 something. Not too shabby for a little guy ... lol
 
Snapshot9 said:
The only time I was timed was in Vegas 16 years ago. I had speeds of
26,28, and 32 something. Not too shabby for a little guy ... lol
Click to expand...

Maybe they had the gun set to read in Km/hr, eh ?

Dave
 
Went to a pool tournament at a casino in the UP and I was clocked over and over at 17-21. When I really went for a smash, I mis-cued and got so embarrassed.
But at that speed, I still smash the rack, I put 5 balls on the break in BCA playoffs last week (was hooked and had to jump!!), and constantly drop 2-3. I think it has more to do with where I hit the head ball than it does the speed of the cue ball.
 
Vegas

I entered the break contest way too many times out in VNEA nationals this year. I won the contest for my bracket one day with a 28.5 mph. I was also able to put up a 29.2 mph. I think the highest I saw there this year that counted was a 31.3.
 
some times a fast break doesn't mean how hard u hit the cue ball but how fast ur arm swings the break cue..
u may have a very fast but low impact break..
on the other hand u may have a average speed but a very powerful impact break..JMO :)
 
It's George said:
some times a fast break doesn't mean how hard u hit the cue ball but how fast ur arm swings the break cue..
u may have a very fast but low impact break..
on the other hand u may have a average speed but a very powerful impact break..JMO :)
Click to expand...

"JMO"? I don't believe opinion has much to do with; it's physics.

The speed people are talking about here is the speed of the CB after leaving the tip of the cue. The "power of impact" you're referring to is nothing more than a combination of CB speed and how full you hit the head ball. There's no such thing as "fast but low impact" or vice versa, unless you're talking about a glancing vs. full hit, or unless the breaker has the power to change the mass of the CB while it's on its way to the 1.

-Andrew
 
At junior nationals i got a lot of compliments on my break, i honestly think it was one of the strongest there.
 
A 30 MPH Breaking speed equates to a CB going 43.3 feet per second.
5280 feet x 30 MPH = 158400 ft / 60 minutes = 2640 ft per minute / 60 seconds = 43.27 feet per second.

The rack is app'x 42 inches or 3.5 feet which equates to 0.08274 of a second, at 30 MPH. I think....
 
more importantly is the fact that breaking as hard as you can is detrimental on some tables. Try starting at 50% and adjusting up from there as needed. doing it to see how hard you hit em is cool, but I'd rather see a contest that includes a TOTAL break factor that includes speed, balls made, control, and if you got a shot on the next ball.

If you give each factor a number, your break "factor" or average will be easy to determine IMO.

I for one have a weak break compared to some, but I RARELLY break hard....

Gerry
 
I agree to what Gerry said !

A hot break speed might look nice, but it`s not what the pro`s use normally.

I think it is most important to pot a ball on the break and control the reaction of the cueball as much as possible. Only that gives you a chance, to shot out tables constantly.

Of course there are exeptions :) when you have a look at the break shot of Rafael Martinez or Francesco Bustamante you might come to the point, thinking it has to be as hard as this.

But these two are the absolut exeption. They both have an absolut perfectet body movement while breaking. Most of the Pro`s use an average break shot with nearly 90%-100% control !
 
Andrew the laws of Physics have been repealed!

The laws of Physics have been repealed! Well maybe not, but insufficient data in does result in an erroneous conclusion. For many years I applied radical low left english on the last stroke of my break. My break appeared deceptively soft, only moderate speed, but routinely pocketed two to four balls most of the time and spread the balls nicely. This did require most of the balls frozen together to work well of course.

On my home eight footer I had at the time I could have made money betting on pocketing at least four balls on the break over fifty percent of the time. I had good balls and generous pockets but the same basic break worked on seven to nine footers and I doubt it would have clocked fifteen miles an hour. If you can still hit your target effectively a lot of spin on a break can be very effective and has nothing to do with radar gun measured speed or weight. (mass if we want to split hairs )

Hu
(edited for typo)

Andrew Manning said:
"JMO"? I don't believe opinion has much to do with; it's physics.

The speed people are talking about here is the speed of the CB after leaving the tip of the cue. The "power of impact" you're referring to is nothing more than a combination of CB speed and how full you hit the head ball. There's no such thing as "fast but low impact" or vice versa, unless you're talking about a glancing vs. full hit, or unless the breaker has the power to change the mass of the CB while it's on its way to the 1.

-Andrew
Click to expand...
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
just curious about the break speed some posters are talking about. when i read about how someone breaks 22-25 MPH, or will hit 30, etc, etc, i am curious as to whether or not you have actually had your break speed tested on a radar gun? or whether you are guessing?

reason being is when i had my break speed measured at Mark Wilson's Billiard Bullpen in December of 2004 i was alot slower than what i thought. i averaged around 17 mph, and when i hit what i thought was a really hard break it was only clocked at 19 mph. these speeds kinda surprised me.

DCP
Click to expand...

My league op has a radar gun and we use it for break contests at our playoff events. The top speed I've seen with our gun is around 28mph, but he has a chart that shows the top pro breaks are in the low 30's.

I'm not sure if there is a calibration factor with radar guns, but that might explain why the speeds tend to vary from place to place.

Personally, I hit 21.1 once, but have never been able to do it again. I'm usually around 19.5 to 20.
 
ShootingArts said:
The laws of Physics have been repealed! Well maybe not, but insufficient data in does result in an erroneous conclusion. For many years I applied radical low left english on the last stroke of my break. My break appeared deceptively soft, only moderate speed, but routinely pocketed two to four balls most of the time and spread the balls nicely. This did require most of the balls frozen together to work well of course.

On my home eight footer I had at the time I could have made money betting on pocketing at least four balls on the break over fifty percent of the time. I had good balls and generous pockets but the same basic break worked on seven to nine footers and I doubt it would have clocked fifteen miles an hour. If you can still hit your target effectively a lot of spin on a break can be very effective and has nothing to do with radar gun measured speed or weight. (mass if we want to split hairs )

Hu
(edited for typo)
Click to expand...

Certainly there are good breaks and bad breaks, and that's not the same things as hard breaks and soft breaks. There are breaks where a lot of balls go in, and that's not necessarily the same thing as hard breaks. But the poster I was replying to was trying to make a distinction between fast breaks and hard breaks, and given the same balls and the same fullness of hit on the 1, there is no distinction; hard and fast mean exactly the same thing.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Certainly there are good breaks and bad breaks, and that's not the same things as hard breaks and soft breaks. There are breaks where a lot of balls go in, and that's not necessarily the same thing as hard breaks. But the poster I was replying to was trying to make a distinction between fast breaks and hard breaks, and given the same balls and the same fullness of hit on the 1, there is no distinction; hard and fast mean exactly the same thing.

-Andrew
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I think what you are saying makes sense, but I am not sure I agree. The reason I say this is, I believe follow through plays a role in the equation. A slower cue with long smooth follow through will transfer more energy than a fast punchy stroke.

I believe in extended tip to cue ball collision time. In my mind, I visuallize it as if the cue ball is starting closer to the rack, because when it leaves the tip, it is closer.

Tracy
 
Its not only physics, it also has a lot to do with mechanics - that provode perfect application of physics. I know guys as big as John Horsfall that couldn't hit the balls as hard as Francisco Bustamante if they tried. Those same big guys couldn't hit them as hard as Jennifer Chen or Tiffany Nelson either. IMO, and Charlie correct me if I am wrong about this, but I believe Perfect Mechanics + Pinpoint Accuracy = Maximum Transfer Of Energy. We can also look at stroke speed (AKA cue speed) - I have always contended that its not how much power you can muster up, but how much cue speed you can transfer from the cue to the cue ball to an accurately hit rack of balls. IMO, this is where many players get lost with the break shot. That is why I have always said that you should never sacrifice accuaracy for power.

Many players actually zap their strength by trying to generate more power than cue speed. If you watch many players (especially Ewa Laurence) they flinch and tense their bodies prior to maximum follow through of the cue. Ewa's body actually stops at a certain point during her break and you can see her flinching quite clearly. I believe that this "tensing" will eventualy eliminate follow through and prevents maximum energy transfer and accuracy. I'm not picking on Ewa, it is just something that is very evident in her breaking style and her Hall of Fame status proves that this flaw has not held her back at all.

I believe that when it comes down to it, their are players that are "loose" and players that are "tight" in their body mechanics. Rodney Morris has the loosest, smoothest delivery of anyone I have ever seen. Other players that fit into this category are Charlie Bryant, Danny Basavich, Paul Potier, Gabe Owen, Earl Strickland, Mike Sigel, David Howard, Danny Medina, Wade Crane, Ga Young Kim, Helena Thornfeldt, Jeanette Lee, and the late, great Tony Ellin who IMO had the most devastatingly powerful break in the history of the pro tour.

Players that are less fluid, yet they always get a great result would be Johnny Archer, Ralf Souquet, Tommy Kennedy, Thorsten Hohmann, Nick Varner, Fong Pang Chao, Karen Corr, Mike Davis, Allison Fisher, and "Tenessee Tarzan" Mike Massey. Their stroke is abbreviated yet they are always accurate in their delivery which IMO, is more important than blasting power or making a lot of balls.

I learned a long time ago that if you hit the balls too hard, bad things can happen. Clusters can occur, the cue ball can get kicked all over the table or into a pocket, or you can scratch due to an inaccurate contact with the head ball in the rack. In 9 ball, I judge a good break by whether or not the player can control the cue ball and the one ball and pocket a ball all at the same time. I have seen too many players make 4 and 5 balls on the break and not have a shot after the dust settles.

Here are some book excerpts that deal with the subject:

Breaking To Win

Mastering The Break
 
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RSB-Refugee said:
I think what you are saying makes sense, but I am not sure I agree. The reason I say this is, I believe follow through plays a role in the equation. A slower cue with long smooth follow through will transfer more energy than a fast punchy stroke.

I believe in extended tip to cue ball collision time. In my mind, I visuallize it as if the cue ball is starting closer to the rack, because when it leaves the tip, it is closer.

Tracy
Click to expand...

To clarify, whenever I referred to speed, I meant the cue ball, not the stick. You're right that a stick moving at a certain speed will not necessarily make the cue ball move at the same speed every time; there are other variables in that equation.

-Andrew
 
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