Your gambling mentality...

[desert1pocket]

In my mind, who the better player is, and who wins the money, are two independent, but equally important aspects of the game. I am always striving to improve my game, and never "lay down" or "stall", but I am also looking to win money rather than lose it. One of the reasons that I play for more than just a little money is that it keeps me focused and playing better. I am much more of a "money player" than a "tournament player", but that is something I would like to change. One of the things I am currently working on, is maintaining my focus AT ALL TIMES, rather than just when it matters.
I never gamble, but I always play pool for money. I never "hustle" anyone, and I hate being referred to as a "hustler", but I do supplement my monthly income playing pool. In the last few years I have consistently won more than I've lost, but I paid dues aplenty in my first few years playing. I am known for matching up well, and this is because I pull up when I get into a game I don't like. There are plenty of players around who let their ego control how they match up, and whether or not to pull up when they find themselves in a bad game. I pride myself in how well I play, but I will not let that pride turn into an expensive ego. It is very true that the bigger action floats around between the players a lot, but it does not even out between everyone as much as some would have you believe.

 

[freddy the beard]

Gambling mentality --- and resolve

Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

 

[Tommy Joe]

One thing I don't particularly care for is the etiquette of not quitting when you're ahead. I understand why it is, but when i win $20 or $40, I want to keep what I won and use it to buy lunch or some DVDs or something. Not risk losing it again.

I was never a big gambler, preferring like you to play for so-called chump change, but the action always seemed more exciting when cash was involved. I agree with you about quitting ahead. I always had trouble doing that because I have never wanted to be considered a hard-ass and wanted at all times to be loved or at least adored by all, including the guy I'm beating on the table.

I have always been strong out of the gate. I think I get bored (or scared), once the match goes beyond a certain point. One method I used with some success was to tell whoever I was playing that I only had time for a certain amount of games and was going to quit at that time, ahead or behind. I'd say it was something really important, and stress that it had to happen. But that didn't always work.

Several times, with some success, I actually pre-arranged with the owner of the room, for whom I worked on occasion, to announce out loud that I've received a telephone call, right around the time I'd mentioned earlier as the time I had to quit. Then I'd go to the phone with my opponent watching or listening and I'd start acting all stressed out telling the phantom on the other end of the line to please not worry, that I'll be there as soon as THIS game is over. That usually worked, but it's not like I adopted it as a regular habit. It was a bit too contrived. I should have done it more often, though, because more times than I care to count, when I didn't quite while ahead I'd wind up letting my opponent break even, then go on to lose as well. Sick, mentally sick, no doubt. I believe in the vast amount of cases that gambling in pool among players of the same caliber is mostly an ego thing, but I also believe there is more than one factor at work in this, as with most things. Interesting topic.

Tommy Joe

 

[Tommy Joe]

Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

No argument, but I think when you say none of those guys would quit you should add, "at the game of their choice." My uncle ran 69 and out on McCready and McCready quit immediatley. Of course he came in wanting to play nine ball, so I assume had he gotten his wish he probably would have played until he won or lost it all, as you say. Same thing with Denny Searcy. He came into our room wanting to play one pocket, but I had been forwarned. He agreed to play me a game of straight pool and I beat him. He quit. I was glad, because I knew he was after the one pocket game, which I never would have played with him, and rarely played with anyone. Maybe had McCready continued playing my uncle straight pool he would have wound up winning, but I doubt it. Had Searcy continued playing me straight he might have won in the end, because, as I'm weirdly proud of mentioning, I'm a mental loser of sorts. Anyway, no argument, those guys you mentioned are sturdy gamblers, but it helps if they're playing the game of their choice.

Tommy Joe

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Playing someone for money in pool is all about WINNING money.
I have seen people ignore this fact, if only for the reason that they want to be considered the best pool player in the room, if not one of the best pool players locally.
TOTAL MORONS IMO.
These are guys giving out spots they can't win with, almost as if, they would rather give the weight and lose, then play a more reasonable game and win.

I like playing for money. I have from day one. But to be quite honest, if i'm not playing for at least something, i get quite bored and see no purpose for playing at all. I'd rather not play.
I also hate giving my money to someone else, so that puts me in the situation of picking my games very carefully. You will never see me getting out of line, giving a spot to someone only for the glory and acclaim.

I have no desire to prove anything to anyone. My sole interest is that when i make a game, i have a high % of winning that game in the long run.
If there is someone who i play better then, and they stubbornly refuse to believe it, and they offer me a spot, you can be sure that i will gladly take it without having my EGO suffer in the least. Those situations never really happen anymore, but when they did, and at the end i am sitting there with a pocket full of cash, and they are broke, i don't have any guilt whatsoever.
To me, people that are stuck in the whole glory/pissing contest aspect of pool, deserved to lose if it infringes upon their ability to make a game.

There is a guy who plays out of our room, who is one of the biggest gamblers around, and he is not of a high level AT ALL. If you were to ask him or anyone else if he plays high level, the answer would have to be no, and he would tell you that he stinks. Yet, he has one of the highest win % in the room because he admits this to himself, and is completely aware at what speed he plays, and negotiates his games accordingly.
I have to give him all the credit in the world, because while the other guys in the pool hall are trying to take the title of who is the best, who criticize the ones who play better then them (jealousy maybe, or perhaps envy), or are too busy in a pissing contest with people at their own level, he ignores all that junk and just goes about making games, and making money.
He doesn't get side tracked by all that garbage, and goes about his business.

Now it's perfectly ok to want to be the best, and want to climb the totem pole of ability, and the only way to achieve that, is to play better players, and take risks. But he has never wanted that, and it has only made him money, while others are fiercely critical of how he stinks and how they play better, and they are the ones who lose all the time because they can't SEE, and are blinded by other things. But that's another topic altogether, reserved for another thread.

I will restate, that if it's pool for money, then it's about WINNING money and not about anything else.

 

[BillyKoda]

I don't gamble much because playing for money changes my game for the worse. I never play someone I don't know for money because I trust no-one, never been hustled that way. I have been known to take a few guys for $10 here and $20 there but that is after seeing their game on separate days and in separate venues. I play with a group of 10 or so players and our biggest wager is usually a quarter a game between us but when new blood comes in I let the gamblers in the group take them on until I know the new guys speed.

There have been exceptions to my rules but it all depends on my confidence at the time a proposal is made. Some days I just can't miss and I will gamble on those days.

To me pool is for fun and investing is to make money.

 

[freddy the beard]

Morons?

Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

Quote Superstar
Playing someone for money in pool is all about WINNING money.
I have seen people ignore this fact, if only for the reason that they want to be considered the best pool player in the room, if not one of the best pool players locally.
TOTAL MORONS IMO.

I guess I just never realized that to play for self-realization, pride, glory, self-challenge, and championing the pioneering spirit, had become such an outmoded notion. I had several students who only wanted to improve so that they could trap guys and win money, they couldnt pay me enough and I chased them all away.

the Beard

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I guess I just never realized that to play for self-realization, pride, glory, self-challenge, and championing the pioneering spirit, had become such an outmoded notion. I had several students who only wanted to improve so that they could trap guys and win money, they couldnt pay me enough and I chased them all away.

the Beard

I guess i left it very vague. My bad.
You are talking about aspiring poolplayers. I was not.

I can totally understand where you are coming from.
I know lots of players that play for the pride, glory, self challenge and realization. I also know that the majority of them that i have know have gone BROKE, or busted their backers in their pursuit of the dream.
It is the only way to learn, and POOLPLAYERS do learn.
Now i won't say that i haven't gotten up there and played whomever because i thought i could win, or even when i knew it was stacked against me because i have. Even when i was dead tired or in a game i couldn't fade, i won some of them, and i got crushed in others. That mentality definitely has it's time and place for someone that wants to better their game.
You can't progress until you've challenged yourself, and found out where you stand.


And YES there are some glorious moments sometimes, but i can guarantee you, there are just as many crappy ones as well. If your fortunate, the good ones will outweigh the bad.

So in the grand scheme of things, MY gambling mentality has changed somewhat (which is what i should have said in the first place), to one that has some responsibility, and one who isn't the free spirited gypsy like i once was. So when i pick my games, i pick them carefully cause you know what, i HATE being broke. So it's allllll about the money. Glory doesn't fit into in anymore.
But even you said a "YOUNG ME" Why did it change?

I guess it all depends on what type of person you are and what makes you tick.
Different motives for different people.

When i said morons, i was talking about the guys who don't even TRY to make a game in relation to their speed. I'm talking about the suckers who will get up there on a bet simply because you said they couldn't do something. The WANNABES who think they play good, but stink, but will argue with you all night trying to justify how good they play to the point of making a bad game just to prove it. Those guys ARE morons, cause they never learn.

It's one thing to test out the waters, and put yourself in situations that will benefit your game, it's another situation altogether when you voluntarily flush yourself down the toilet all the time because of a bruised ego.

 

[HittMan]

One Trip Pony

That's what we called them in my neck of the woods. We worshipped the hustler's bravado as well...but...I have to say...it was almost 100% bullsh*t.
That's a dandy list of hustler's...most of them stone cold suckers...for the "easy life" of pocket billiards. Can you think of any harder work? And for that committment you got a nickname...that's about it...especially if you weren't REAL careful.
Maybe it will be better in the future.
Eventually we all have to look in the mirror and accept that what we see largely results from our own actions.
JMO...you be the judge

 

[ShootingArts]

Hate to do this

Freddy,

I bought your book and learned a bit from it. I suspect that there is still a lot more in there to learn too.

However I can't help noticing that you are taking an opposite position on gambling than you took just a month ago. Has your opinion really changed or will you bounce back to the other position here or on the one pocket board as is convenient?

Hu

Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

Quote Superstar
Playing someone for money in pool is all about WINNING money.
I have seen people ignore this fact, if only for the reason that they want to be considered the best pool player in the room, if not one of the best pool players locally.
TOTAL MORONS IMO.

I guess I just never realized that to play for self-realization, pride, glory, self-challenge, and championing the pioneering spirit, had become such an outmoded notion. I had several students who only wanted to improve so that they could trap guys and win money, they couldnt pay me enough and I chased them all away.

the Beard

 

[freddy the beard]

Reply to Shooting Arts and Superstar

Freddy,

I bought your book and learned a bit from it. I suspect that there is still a lot more in there to learn too.
However I can't help noticing that you are taking an opposite position on gambling than you took just a month ago. Has your opinion really changed or will you bounce back to the other position here or on the one pocket board as is convenient?

Hu



To Superstar, you noticed I said "Young me," good, that denoted exactly what I meant. That is how I used to be. At 65 I no longer have such a gunfighter mentality. My point was, if you want to be a player you must be a risk taker.
To Shooting Arts, what was my previous position? You never offered what I supposedly said previously. My opinions are usually hard-core. I really aint noted for being a windsock. My philosophy has always been the gunfight. Although lately I do do a little more ambushing and shooting in the back.

the Beard

 

[Harvywallbanger]

I'm a terrible gambler! I always want to play someone better than me and I usually play untill I loose everything in my pocket. I won over $2,000 at the casino and gave it all right back to them within 1 hour even after I told myself I was not going to loose more than 100 or two. Somehow I forgot my advise in about 5 min. and went straight to the high limit area. I won $900 in a $200 sit n go playing poker online. I told myself now its time to play smart. 5 min. later I found myself in an ALL IN cash game and lost over $700 in one hand! Its been like that my whole life. I win alot and I want more...more, more, more.

 

[ShootingArts]

Hustling post

Freddy,

Here is the quote from your earlier post. I didn't chase it down here too since the one pocket board moves slower and is easier to find things on. You state you crossposted it to both boards. Sure looks like you favor the hustler out to "WIN MONEY" and the hustler mentality. Dividing everyone into hustlers or "square-johns" is another strong indication of where you stood then.

(quote from Freddy's post)
"It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even (and who are you to make that determination), and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?"
(end quote)



There is a world of difference between gambling and hustling. A hustle involves a con of some sort. You indicate very high ethics in several recent posts on this board and I genuinely want to know which is the real Freddy. I am interested in your second banking book which I understand is coming out soon but at the same time I vote on many things the only way I can, with my pocketbook.

Hu

To Shooting Arts, what was my previous position? You never offered what I supposedly said previously. My opinions are usually hard-core. I really aint noted for being a windsock. My philosophy has always been the gunfight. Although lately I do do a little more ambushing and shooting in the back.

the Beard

 

[PoolSleuth]

Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

I call them Cold Blooded Gamblers that I have seen a the Horse Track, and the Tables in Sin City. Think sometime the Gambling is more important than the Winning, it is the Game that Drives them.

Remember a Road Player who use to ccome throught LA is the Late 70's, he won big at Night at Pool, and Lost during the Day at Santa Anita, or hollywood Park...

 

[Ummagumma]

I was never a big gambler, preferring like you to play for so-called chump change, but the action always seemed more exciting when cash was involved. I agree with you about quitting ahead. I always had trouble doing that because I have never wanted to be considered a hard-ass and wanted at all times to be loved or at least adored by all, including the guy I'm beating on the table.

Also, someone told me that if you quit while ahead, you'll get a rep and no one will want to play you for money again. Of course in my case, since I'm playing for small change, it would typically not be an issue.

Indeed, the action is more exciting when more money is involved. A lot of people thrive on it, the risk, the rush, the adrenaline.

I have always been strong out of the gate. I think I get bored (or scared), once the match goes beyond a certain point. One method I used with some success was to tell whoever I was playing that I only had time for a certain amount of games and was going to quit at that time, ahead or behind. I'd say it was something really important, and stress that it had to happen. But that didn't always work.

Several times, with some success, I actually pre-arranged with the owner of the room, for whom I worked on occasion, to announce out loud that I've received a telephone call, right around the time I'd mentioned earlier as the time I had to quit. Then I'd go to the phone with my opponent watching or listening and I'd start acting all stressed out telling the phantom on the other end of the line to please not worry, that I'll be there as soon as THIS game is over. That usually worked, but it's not like I adopted it as a regular habit. It was a bit too contrived. I should have done it more often, though, because more times than I care to count, when I didn't quite while ahead I'd wind up letting my opponent break even, then go on to lose as well. Sick, mentally sick, no doubt. I believe in the vast amount of cases that gambling in pool among players of the same caliber is mostly an ego thing, but I also believe there is more than one factor at work in this, as with most things. Interesting topic.

The only time that I played a money game (other than with my regular friends), I got the opponent's agreement beforehand that the winner would not be obligated to play any games if requested by the loser. As long as everyone knows and agrees, then everything should work out okay.

 

[freddy the beard]

Two sides of the coin

Freddy,

Sure looks like you favor the hustler out to "WIN MONEY" and the hustler mentality...

(quote from Freddy's post)
"It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even (and who are you to make that determination), and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?"
(end quote)

There is a world of difference between gambling and hustling. A hustle involves a con of some sort. You indicate very high ethics in several recent posts on this board and I genuinely want to know which is the real Freddy...

Hu


Hu,
Let me clear this up. High ethics was not a big part of my pool playing career.
While I respect high ethics, the reality of pool hustling and eating every day, caused me to do many things I wished I hadnt. If you are aspiring to become a top player and top gambler/hustler you must work on both sides of the street. To be a top player/gambler you must be a gunfighter that plays tough action and who is not afraid to take a little the worst of it. Someone who is willing to fight to the death. However, and here comes reality again, in order to subsidize and finance these noble ideals, you must play "sucker" action periodically. That involves conning and hustling and robbing some opponents in order to pay for those tough-action sessions. So in my case, while I loved tough-action with champions, I was also a seasoned "lemon" hustler like Bunny Rogoff (someone who didnt like tough action and only sought out "lemon" scores). I hope that explains my philosophy a little better.

the Beard

 

[clolson]

i will gamble with anyone in 6 ball......if i get the break and last 3 for 1dollar a game.

ROFLMAO.



nah meanz.

 

[catscradle]

... I usually don't care so much about the amount of money I'm betting, I just want to beat everyone...

Gerry

Then why do you waste time and money gambling????

 

[ironman]

Freddy,

Sure looks like you favor the hustler out to "WIN MONEY" and the hustler mentality...

(quote from Freddy's post)
"It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even (and who are you to make that determination), and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?"
(end quote)

There is a world of difference between gambling and hustling. A hustle involves a con of some sort. You indicate very high ethics in several recent posts on this board and I genuinely want to know which is the real Freddy...

Hu



Hu,
Let me clear this up. High ethics was not a big part of my pool playing career.
While I respect high ethics, the reality of pool hustling and eating every day, caused me to do many things I wished I hadnt. If you are aspiring to become a top player and top gambler/hustler you must work on both sides of the street. To be a top player/gambler you must be a gunfighter that plays tough action and who is not afraid to take a little the worst of it. Someone who is willing to fight to the death. However, and here comes reality again, in order to subsidize and finance these noble ideals, you must play "sucker" action periodically. That involves conning and hustling and robbing some opponents in order to pay for those tough-action sessions. So in my case, while I loved tough-action with champions, I was also a seasoned "lemon" hustler like Bunny Rogoff (someone who didnt like tough action and only sought out "lemon" scores). I hope that explains my philosophy a little better.

the Beard

Bunny (Pots & Pans ) had it down. Most never knew what had happened to them, when he was done. With his act though, almost every victim got exactly wht he deserved because they thought they were the ones hustling, or stealing from some old drunk. Nobody screams louder than a thief.
A game is not a game unless two people play. Their is larceny on both sides, or the game never would have taken place.
I tink Freddy could explain his position over and over and the majority would never understand it.

 

[Tommy Joe]

I got the opponent's agreement beforehand that the winner would not be obligated to play any games if requested by the loser. As long as everyone knows and agrees, then everything should work out okay.

It's amazing the number of entertaining stories that come from the world of gambling. It amazes me how people are able to enter into bets without first laying down hard rules - and making them clear to all.

If I make an insanely stupid bet, that's my doing. But, for the sake of my own skin (as well as fair-play and honesty), I'm going to lay down the rules first. Wording is so important that putting it down on tape in front of witnesses might not be a bad idea. Of course, even then the delusional loser could challenge the rules, claiming you changed the tape when he wasn't looking. hah hah hah

Your method is smart. But let's remember that gambling makes people temporarily insane - especially when they're losing. Just because they agree with the rules when they're sane doesn't mean they'll stick to them once they go nuts. Maybe that's why some societies frown on gambling - it produces too many losers, and too much temporary insanity. Society go boom boom. ......

Tommy Joe