Blackjack said:
I'm not kidding here. Sigel is 5'10. He says he's 5'11, but he's 5'10".
Is Mike Sigel the best ever?
- Thread starter wrldpro
- Start date
I'm not kidding here. Sigel is 5'10. He says he's 5'11, but he's 5'10".
RunoutalloverU said:
I agree with you to a certain point. It is true that winning tournaments is very difficult and only the great players won multiple times. In the last 20-30 years or so, that makes Earl, Sigel and Buddy the greatest. Varner trails these three in victories I'm sure. He may be fourth though.
The exceptions are the guys who played the best players and consistently defeated them for the cash. Only Parica and Buddy in 9-Ball and Ten Ball and Efren in One Pocket can make such claims. Keith and Matlock were fairly indestructible on a bar table as well. Every generation has had it's gambling legends and these players deserve to be noted as well.
Ronnie won few titles, but at One Pocket he reigned supreme for over twenty years. Same could be said for Taylor and Bugs at Banks. And everyone knew Steve Mizerak was the greatest Straight Pool player of his era. No one wanted a piece of him, and that means something. Of course, he won many 14.1 Championships as well.
These gambling powerhouses were respected by their peers and deserve any recognition they get. If you take a look at the above players and compare it with the tournament champions, one guy's name stands out. BUDDY HALL! He won more tournaments than anybody past or present, and beat everyone but Parica for the cash. I don't think they ever played either. I guess that makes Buddy the all time greatest! And he may just be.
RunoutalloverU said:
Runout,
Here's the lists, check them out.
World 9 Ball Champions (1980-1990)
1980 Jim Rempe Jimmy Reid
1981 Mike Sigel
1982 Nick Varner
1983 Buddy Hall Allen Hopkins
1984 Earl Strickland Buddy Hall
1985 Mike Sigel
1986 Mike Sigel
1987 Mike Sigel
1988 Earl Strickland
1989 Nick Varner
1990 Earl Strickland
Here's a list of the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships (1980-1990)
1980 Mike Sigel
1981 Allen Hopkins
1982 David Howard
1983 Mike Sigel
1984 Earl Strickland
1985 Jimmy Reid
1986 David Howard
1987 Earl Strickland
1988 Mike LeBron
1989 Nick Varner
1990 Nick Varner
***But, in who has the MOST of these two championships, it's Earl with 6 World Championships (1984-1988-1990-1991-1994-2002) plus 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships (1984-1987-1993-1997-2000)
Sigel has 5 World 9 Ball Championships (1977-1981-1985-1986-1987) plus 3 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships (1976-1980-1983)
Earl has 11, Mike has 8.
My vote would be Sigel ruled the 1980's with his 6 majors to Earl's 4, but Earl was the better of the two in 9 ball, as he also had 5 majors in the 1990's plus 2 more in the 2000's.
Keither with the ether, why dont you back away from that computer and wipe the dust off your stick so we can gamble,you talk a good game lets see if you still have it.Just like old times.lol.Keith McCready said:Hello, Billy again!I had to respond to your post.
Mike was a great 4 1/2 by 9 player. Back then, I believe in my heart if I could have broken the balls like Earl and Bustamante, Mike Sigel could have got the 8 and 9, but seeing as so I didn't have a good break, the game was close. It was close with even a bad break.
When you play people racing to 11 and go oh for 9 on the break and the score is 10-10 or 10-9, what's that tell you? That happened to me all the time.
But now if we go to the bar tables, 3 1/2 by 7, 4 by 8 especially, where I could break the balls, Sigel had no chance to beat me. It wouldn't have even been a contest. He tried it once, after he ducked me for years, with Larry Hubbart where I gave Mike Sigel the last 2. We were playing 7 ahead sets for 3 grand a set, I believe. I think Mike had 5 games at one time. The 2 sets were over within 2 hours. Mike hit the deck. Then Larry Hubbart got up there. I gave Larry the 8 and 9, a session for 6 dimes, and that session took about an hour, maybe hour and a half. This happened at Nutty Neros.
Then Larry Hubbart proceeded to go to Oklahoma City or Punkett City and played even with David Matlock on a bar table and happened to beat David. So where would that put me? Does everybody remember that?
Louie Roberts was a great player, and I loved Louie, but I had to give Louie the call 8 every time we played. As far as shotmaking, pound for pound, Louie had to be one of the best shotmakers of all times, and I believe Louie was a better shotmaker than Sigel. Sigel knew more pool, but he couldn't come with that shot for that money like Louie.
And to be perfectly honest, Billy, when Sigel, Louie, and I were playing, I'd take me over both of them coming with that shot for that big dough, any time, any day. I just thought I would put my 2 cents in, being that my name was brought up.
As far as knowledge of playing pool, Mike Sigel wins that one, but as far as the shot-making and gambling and being able to make that shot for the big dough, I'm not going to take a back seat to Sigel being the Cinncinati Kid second best. Sorry. In fact, I believe Louie and I were both better than Mike Sigel in that department.
Terry Ardeno said:
Terry,
Here are some more asterisks for you -
Mike insists that he has 5 US opens because he won the event in 1974 and 1975 prior to it being named the US Open - then he won it a third year in a row in 1976.
He calls it 5, its recognized as 3.
Blackjack said:
Yep.
It was called the US Masters and was held at Jack & Jill's in Arlington, Va.
jay helfert said:
Jay,
That was a great post that explains nicely the criteria on GOAT (Greatest of all time).
My top 3 9 ballers of all time are Lassiter, Strickland & then Sigel. Instead of re-typing, I'll just paste something I wrote on another Lassiter thread that, although you & I came to different conclusions, we follow the same logic....
Lassiter was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But, Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.
As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles, plus World Championships in 14.1, banks and 1 pocket.
Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have more major 9 ball titles than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball. I think Reyes is the best all around player ever, followed by Varner.
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. And that's just when 9 ball tournaments started! He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades? But there weren't any. So, Lasiter's best years were at a time when there were no major 9 ball championships held.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 of them.
The simple fact is Reyes was a better 1 pocket, 8 ball and especially Rotation player than he was as a 9 baller.
These are just MY opinions and many other fans and historians who love and study the game as much as I do may have differing opinions. But, once I collected all the info that I had on these great players, I feel very confident in my selections of who was better at what.
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Terry Ardeno said:
Thanks Terry, point well taken. Is it too late to put Efren on my list of All Around greats?
jay helfert said:Thanks Terry, point well taken. Is it too late to put Efren on my list of All Around greats?
That particular post was not to demean or dispute your picks, it was to explain how we both sort of put emphasis on tournaments AND gambling to get the G.O.A.T. There's no point to make with you, other than this is so much fun!
All these posts do is allow each of us to express who we think is where in the pecking order and how we arrived at whatever conclusion we got. Who's to say who's right or wrong?
Guys like Jose Parica, Buddy Hall, Efren, Earl, Strickland, Varner, Lassiter are on EVERYBODY'S list of all-around greats.
Terry Ardeno said:
Hey Terry, did you get to hear Earl's story of playing Lassiter when earl was playing that shortstop in Arizona on the live feed?
Me?....Fast Lenny a shortstop?,haha,more like the worse player in the room!RunoutalloverU said:
I was so nervous playing him I was happy to make a ball,my heart was beating so loud and it was all I could hear and then I could only think of making the 1 ball and went into a ball on the wrong side hooking myself,then I kick 2 rails and missed by a few diamonds, you could say I was star struck and shook up. Here is the link to where you can see Earl go on about his first time playing Wimpy and breaking out the jump shot on him,good story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAVxK6TttA
Lassier greatest alltime player imho.
Mad Wis early 70's all the great players are there. Action everywhere. Old before his time Luther sleeping in a chair. Asked a friend why he was not playing anyone. Response was nobody was that nuts, Luther did win the tourneys between his naps.
Mad Wis early 70's all the great players are there. Action everywhere. Old before his time Luther sleeping in a chair. Asked a friend why he was not playing anyone. Response was nobody was that nuts, Luther did win the tourneys between his naps.
Fast Lenny said:Me?....Fast Lenny a shortstop?,haha,more like the worse player in the room!
Here is the link to where you can see Earl go on about his first time playing Wimpy and breaking out the jump shot on him,good story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAVxK6TttA
No, Dennis Orender.
When Earl was playing Dennis did he tell a story about Lassiter?RunoutalloverU said:
wrldpro said:
I am a big fan of Mike Sigel... however... I have seen alot of footage of Willie Mosconi holding his own with alot of the people on the list.... and that was AFTER he had a stroke (not a cue movement stroke... a blood clot in the brain stroke) all the footage I have seen of Willie shooting was shot after his debilitating stroke...all stroke victims lose some motor skills..
Willie could hang with the big kids AFTER losing motor skills to a stroke..
how good was he before???
I'd love to see some footage of Mosconi running balls when he was winning every event he entered..
he even won a tournament AFTER having a stoke.... how good is that?
if Efren had a stroke tomorrow would he still be a favorite to win the US open??
Fast Lenny said:When Earl was playing Dennis did he tell a story about Lassiter?
He was practicing by himself I thought, I didn't know he played you, but I was referring to dennis.
When he did play me he was practicing by himself.RunoutalloverU said:
Fast Lenny said:When he did play me he was practicing by himself.
Lol good one.
the point about Efren's lack of World 9 ball titles during an era where 9 ball was the dominant game is well taken
regarding his gambling, he's a monster, HOWEVER, Efren practically has people waiting in line to back him, and it's been that way ever since he hit US soil
playing with your own money is a different ball game
these two facts imo really open up the topic for debate
regarding his gambling, he's a monster, HOWEVER, Efren practically has people waiting in line to back him, and it's been that way ever since he hit US soil
playing with your own money is a different ball game
these two facts imo really open up the topic for debate