Simonis 860 vs.860HR vs. 760

Good question, from a technical standpoint I don't know what the numbers represent, maybe it's just a product number but the Simonis website probably explains it. From a practical standpoint the 760 is a finer textured surface and the ball rolls farther with less power than on 860, more like a billiard table. The difference that I notice is how the balls spread out on 760 as opposed to 860. It's not so much that the balls travel a lot further on a breakshot although that's part of it, it's more that they don't clump together as tightly and many times that 1/2 of space between the balls makes balls passable so they have paths to pockets without being moved again. It also helps me in that anytime I can hit a ball with less power I seem to be more accurate.

I never thought that much about playing conditions until I started playing more 14.1 and got my own table. Things like having the balls clean and polished that didn't seem that important before suddenly are noticeable. You would be amazed how much better a clean and shiny cue ball responds compared to one that is covered with chalk dust and grime. It's disappointing to me that the pool halls I play in won't spend the money to have ball washers and the balls and tables are often dirty. I used to think that none of this mattered because if you were playing an opponent you were both playing on the same equipment so who cared; but when trying to run balls and play 14.1 (even at my crappy level of play) it really helps to have the balls respond consistently because you are playing position around a lot of "traffic" on the lower rail and in the rack area. Those tiny little angles become very important and the difference between rolling a little too far or not quite far enough can be the difference between having multiple shots or no shot. It never ceases to amaze me that in 14.1 with balls spread out all over how often you can end up in one of the few spots where there is no easy shot. I spend a lot of time talking to the cueball, I hope that someday it will listen to me.
 
Zagiflyer said:
I never thought that much about playing conditions until I started playing more 14.1 and got my own table. Things like having the balls clean and polished that didn't seem that important before suddenly are noticeable. You would be amazed how much better a clean and shiny cue ball responds compared to one that is covered with chalk dust and grime. It's disappointing to me that the pool halls I play in won't spend the money to have ball washers and the balls and tables are often dirty. I used to think that none of this mattered because if you were playing an opponent you were both playing on the same equipment so who cared; but when trying to run balls and play 14.1 (even at my crappy level of play) it really helps to have the balls respond consistently because you are playing position around a lot of "traffic" on the lower rail and in the rack area. Those tiny little angles become very important and the difference between rolling a little too far or not quite far enough can be the difference between having multiple shots or no shot.

I bought a ballstar and I bought a new set of centennials and I bring my own polished balls to play league. I also use a wet rag to clean off the table in the pool hall before I start playing. Others have started doing the same in regards to cleaning the tables.

Schmidt told me how important clean balls and tables were. Bobby Hunter was measuring some of the old sets of balls we were using at one of the leagues and noticing how beat up, lighter and smaller they were. I checked with a scale and calipers and he was right. That's when I bought the new centennials. It makes a big difference in how they open.
 
dmgwalsh said:
I bought a ballstar and I bought a new set of centennials and I bring my own polished balls to play league. I also use a wet rag to clean off the table in the pool hall before I start playing. Others have started doing the same in regards to cleaning the tables.

Schmidt told me how important clean balls and tables were. Bobby Hunter was measuring some of the old sets of balls we were using at one of the leagues and noticing how beat up, lighter and smaller they were. I checked with a scale and calipers and he was right. That's when I bought the new centennials. It makes a big difference in how they open.

Dennis;

No doubt, they say that Mosconi always brought his own set of balls for exhibitions so he knew that they were clean and polished and he was used to how they responded, it eliminated one variable that he would otherwise have to adjust for.

Ken
 
Zagiflyer said:
Dennis;

No doubt, they say that Mosconi always brought his own set of balls for exhibitions so he knew that they were clean and polished and he was used to how they responded, it eliminated one variable that he would otherwise have to adjust for.

Ken


Yes, he did. I know this to be fact. In his very later years, he stopped this practice, but while he was a Brunswick exhibition player/rep, he absolutely did.
 
I bought a ballstar and I bought a new set of centennials and I bring my own polished balls to play league. I also use a wet rag to clean off the table in the pool hall before I start playing. Others have started doing the same in regards to cleaning the tables.

Schmidt told me how important clean balls and tables were. Bobby Hunter was measuring some of the old sets of balls we were using at one of the leagues and noticing how beat up, lighter and smaller they were. I checked with a scale and calipers and he was right. That's when I bought the new centennials. It makes a big difference in how they open.

Do you have a ball case and if so which one?
 
Do you have a ball case and if so which one?

Not at first, but I was talked into getting one:

ballcase.jpg
 
I vote 760 too, tho I'm a sub-50 ball runner. I'm not sure I agree with the logic that we should do something to make pool harder in order to force the players to have more skill. I find pool hard enough as it is.

I do find it funny that we have a bunch of votes for 760 but the best straights player among us is all about the 860 =) Makes it a little trickier to decide.

I have found I can hold balls by hitting 'em softer, but I can see where it gets uncomfortably soft (like you worry it won't make the pocket or you worry the ball will roll off).

I'd be curious to see if someone like Dr. Dave has a comment on whether it just balances out, the cue ball must be hit softer to hold it, but it's ok to hit softer since the OB will keep travelling on the faster cloth.

Having played on both I can't say I find one easier to hold than the other, but I can definitely say hitting it harder isn't always an option just because I personally can't hit accurately with lots of force, I miss more and the pocket rejects it more.
 
I'm not sure I agree with the logic that we should do something to make pool harder in order to force the players to have more skill. I find pool hard enough as it is.
In my opinion cloth is not really important compared to other factors that make the game so hard to play.
I can be wrong, but I think, 760 is very rare in Germany. Most poolhalls have either 860 or Z9, which is a better cloth imho as I mentioned above.
 
In my opinion cloth is not really important compared to other factors that make the game so hard to play.
I can be wrong, but I think, 760 is very rare in Germany. Most poolhalls have either 860 or Z9, which is a better cloth imho as I mentioned above.

ive played in many country's, and here are my findings.

Portugal = 860
Spain = 860
(havent played in a BIG tournament, or didnt visit the pro poolhalls, so this might be different)

North european country's: Belgium, Holland, Germany, alot of 860 where there are alot of ballbangers, but the TOP clubs with the TOP players and where they change cloth at least twice / year all have 760. All the tournamenttables of national level have 760. European championship, Eurotour, Big opens. All 760's.

for 14-1, 860 is perfect for very small CB movement, but its hard on breakshots and secondary breakshots. Its has its pro's and neg's, but after having played on 860 for most of my life, and having had 860 on my diamond, , knowing what i know now, i WILL change my cloth to 760 without second thinking ASA i have some $$.
 
I played at Red Shoes in Alsip, IL over the weekend. I thought the cloth was quite fast and asked the owner what it was. He said it was 860. It wasn't brand new 860 either because he said he was soon to recover the tables with 860HR. It didn't look too worn to me.

Really a conundrum. I have 860 at home and it is slow as molasses compared to the 860 at Red Shoes, though it was fast to begin with. Chalk buildup? Not stretched tight enough? Have I abused it with the brush or vacuum? Humidity's not the problem, I checked that.

Glen the realkingcobra is scheduled to recover my home table soon. He'll tell me the problem, I'm sure, and I'll report back.
 
I remember back in the 70's when I had my Victor 9 footer recovered it was done with J.P. Stevens #1. It may of been like Simonis but it had a nap. It had to be installed with the nap running to the foot end. Even though most of the cloths now are non-directional, you still see most people brush or clean their tables from the head to the foot. If you were ever wondering why, that may be part of the reason. Also, I have Simonis 860 on my GC IV. When I recover it, it will be with 860, just don't know which color. Tournament blue, or standard green ?
 
North european country's: Belgium, Holland, Germany, alot of 860 where there are alot of ballbangers, but the TOP clubs with the TOP players and where they change cloth at least twice / year all have 760. All the tournamenttables of national level have 760. European championship, Eurotour, Big opens. All 760's.

Sorry Solartje,
but what I know we play on Simonis 860 at all European Championships and at all Eurotours.
I don´t play each of them, but I played some in the past and they played on 860 all the time.

And big billiard rooms over here in Europe normaly all use 760, because they hold up longer.
The speed is faster, yeah, but it´s nearly the same from day one until day 365, you know.

But maybe I am completely wrong :eek:, but I dont thinks so :wink:

Eric"h" ----- plays and lives in Europe since two decades and owns a pool room :grin:
 
I'll always defer to Dr. Lipsky, but I just ordered 760 for my home table to replace the 860 I've had for years. Maybe it's just to boost my ego, but I love the spread you get with the faster cloth.
 
I just replaced my 760 cloth last week with Championship. Gotta tell ya, I am shocked, I LOVE IT!

It seems to play right in between the 760 and 860, and supposedly, it has a longer life than Simonis. Who knows... but it is what i have now for the next year or two for my home table.
 
I've had 860 on my Diamond Pro for 10 years and 760 on my old GCI for 15 years. I'm going back to 760. On my 860 Diamond, the balls broke like concrete. Added to the relative severity of the table itself, long runs were pretty much wishful thinking...
 
860 For Me.

I have had 760 once on my table and it was so fast that I could not adjust to other tables. Yes, the 760 plays great and the racks open up with no problems at all but you have to learn to cut down your stroke in half.
I was totally lost when I played in my weekly leagues. I would hit balls and they would stop before they got to the pocket. (this is before the rooms went to 860).
Now, if any player out there has no problem adjusting. Then I say: Great for them but not me. If I never played any where else other then my home. I would want 760.
I have used 860 & 860HR. To me they both play the same and wear the same. 860 is what the rooms have on their tables in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. It is best to go into a match being use to what you are use to playing on.
I have also had Championship cloth on the table and I prefer the 860.
Just my opinion.

I had a 96 ball run last.
 
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I just put blue 860HR on my table. I like it. I had green 760 before. I was going to put 760 again since my table is in a basement and I was concerned about humidity, but since I live in Colorado and its very dry here I am giving the 860HR a go. My cloth is stretched tightly and its still new so it plays awesome. We will see how it plays once its older.
 
I gotta chip in here because I just recovered my Diamond table. Andy from Diamond did a great job. Before he took off my old 860, I to told him the table felt a bit slow to me. He ran his hands against the cloth and he thought it seemed a bit loose. It was about 3 years old but in very good condition. He installed 860 HR as I ordered, and the table plays completely different, as in faster. I love it. I think it is combination of a better fit, newer cloth and a slightly faster cloth than 860 ( according to Simonis).

So my vote is 860HR, a happy medium.

I am surprised no one mentioned size of pockets with relationship to speed of cloth. IMHO, the cloth you choose should take the size of pockets you have. You do not want tight pockets if you have to pound the ball to open up clusters. So if you have larger pockets then a slower cloth is acceptable. If you have tighter pockets you want a faster to cloth because you will not be as aggressive in your break and secondary break shots and therefore want a cloth that will separate the balls easier.

But what do I know, my highest run is 34, but trying to improving my game everyday.
 
860 installed correctly will be faster than 860hr installed incorrectly.
860 installed correctly will be faster than 760 installed incorrectly.


Point trying to make-- The install job of the cloth matters a lot on how fast the cloth will play.
 
I don't much about this stuff but I've always found 760 to be fairly unplayable for all games.

A friend bought a nice drop pocket table for $7k+ about 10 years ago and asked me for advice on cloth. I have the same opinion about Sjmonis 760, too fast. Simonis 860 is fast enough for 14.1.

We compared Simonis 860 with Championship Tour Edition 30/30 and found them a lot alike. The 14.1 Worlds was played on the later for the past 2 years. Both are high wool content and 24oz.
 
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