Can you transfer side spin to an OB?

Interesting arguments and it sure is nice to see a thread that's about pool. :thumbup:

I'll choose to not try to convince anybody of anything and I'll also choose to continue to use english to throw in balls that can't be made from where they are, and to bank shots that can't be made from where they are. Now THAT'S fun! :groucho:
 
cleary...I will only say one thing about this shot you have diagrammed (the cross-side bank). It is made VERY easily without using ANY sidespin at all. It was taught to me by Willie Jopling, many years ago, and I shoot it in every trick shot show that I do. I find it interesting, though, that the Artistic Shot Workbook plainly describes the shot advocating sidespin. The truth is that it does not need it all.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

cleary said:
Shots like this come to mind. And pretty much any shot from "banks that dont go, but do". Without the transfer of spin, they dont go.

CueTable Help



without a table in front of me, I may have these setup slightly wrong, but its 1am...

We might as well be talking about, "who believes in aliens".
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I believe in that case the side spine is imparted on the object ball by the cushion, or the direction is changed by the compression of the cushion. The harder you hit it the more the cushion forms around the ball and pushes it back against the angle of impact.
 
Scott Lee said:
cleary...I will only say one thing about this shot you have diagrammed (the cross-side bank). It is made VERY easily without using ANY sidespin at all. It was taught to me by Willie Jopling, many years ago, and I shoot it in every trick shot show that I do. I find it interesting, though, that the Artistic Shot Workbook plainly describes the shot advocating sidespin. The truth is that it does not need it all.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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And can you make the other shot without side spin????
 
Scott Lee said:
cleary...I will only say one thing about this shot you have diagrammed (the cross-side bank). It is made VERY easily without using ANY sidespin at all. It was taught to me by Willie Jopling, many years ago, and I shoot it in every trick shot show that I do. I find it interesting, though, that the Artistic Shot Workbook plainly describes the shot advocating sidespin. The truth is that it does not need it all.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Just to be clear about what you're saying:

The OB in that shot does need sidespin in order to reverse its bank angle, and it does get its sidespin from the CB, but not necessarily from sidespin on the CB. The OB can get enough sidespin just from the CB colliding with it at an angle (collision induced sidespin).

The OB can also get enough transferred sidespin from sidespin on the CB and a straight on collision (no collision induced sidespin). Either way (or a combination of the two) works for this shot.

pj
chgo
 
Scott Lee said:
cleary...I will only say one thing about this shot you have diagrammed (the cross-side bank). It is made VERY easily without using ANY sidespin at all. ...
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Scott,

Spin IS transferred to the OB in these types of shots. As you point out, it doesn't need to be from English. An "outside cut" with no English can also transfer spin. Any time there is throw (SIT or CIT), there is spin transfer (SIS:spin-induced spin or CIS:cut-induced spin). It is a small amount of spin, but it makes a big difference with bank shots (e.g., with an inside cut, the bank is lengthened; and with an outside cut, the bank is shortened). I have a good video demonstrating the 2-times and 3-times cross-side banks here (with super slow motion footage):

The spin transfer is clearly visible in the video.

FYI, I also have info and resources describing and illustrating all of the bank effects here:


Regards,
Dave
 
Are you kidding me? Go play some pool.

For what it's worth, I think that spin transfers. No need to convince me otherwise, as I'll be out at the poolhall shooting what are apparently now impossible banks all day.
 
dr_dave said:
Scott,

Spin IS transferred to the OB in these types of shots. As you point out, it doesn't need to be from English. An "outside cut" with no English can also transfer spin. Any time there is throw (SIT or CIT), there is spin transfer (SIS:spin-induced spin or CIS:cut-induced spin). It is a small amount of spin, but it makes a big difference with bank shots (e.g., with an inside cut, the bank is lengthened; and with an outside cut, the bank is shortened). I have a good video demonstrating the 2-times and 3-times cross-side banks here (with super slow motion footage):

The spin transfer is clearly visible in the video.

FYI, I also have info and resources describing and illustrating all of the bank effects here:


Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

tap tap tap.

If you dont see the spin in the 1000fps video, something is wrong.
 
PJ...I agree with you. In the case of this cross-side bank, sidespin on the OB (to reverse the angle) is induced due to the cut angle and collision with the CB. That's my point. Cleary was saying it cannot be made without putting english on the CB. That's wrong. I did not say you cannot make it WITH english on the CB...I merely pointed out that it is not necessary. Anytime I don't HAVE to put sidespin on the CB (for a certain reaction to occur), the better off I am! KISS rules! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Patrick Johnson said:
Just to be clear about what you're saying:

The OB in that shot does need sidespin in order to reverse its bank angle, and it does get its sidespin from the CB, but not necessarily from sidespin on the CB. The OB can get enough sidespin just from the CB colliding with it at an angle (collision induced sidespin).

The OB can also get enough transferred sidespin from sidespin on the CB and a straight on collision (no collision induced sidespin). Either way (or a combination of the two) works for this shot.

pj
chgo
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Dave...I agree with you. I should have said "no sidespin on the CB is necessary to make this shot"...which is true. Like PJ said, it can be made using sidespin on the CB, as well. My only point is, why use english when it's not required to "help" the shot? Sidespin on the CB lessens accuracy (due to squirt), and requires 'aim adjustment' on the OB...two things I choose to leave out of the equation, whenever I am able.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

dr_dave said:
Scott,

Spin IS transferred to the OB in these types of shots. As you point out, it doesn't need to be from English. An "outside cut" with no English can also transfer spin. Any time there is throw (SIT or CIT), there is spin transfer (SIS:spin-induced spin or CIS:cut-induced spin). It is a small amount of spin, but it makes a big difference with bank shots (e.g., with an inside cut, the bank is lengthened; and with an outside cut, the bank is shortened).
Regards,
Dave
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cleary said:
And can you make the other shot without side spin????
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All of the demo shots in this thread need sidespin on the OB in order to make, but none of them need sidespin on the CB in order to put the necessary sidespin on the OB. But you have to start with the CB in the right place. Take my setup for instance:

CueTable Help



In both setups the OB must have spin to go. However, the setup on the right needs CB spin in order to transfer spin to the OB, but the one on the left can transfer spin to the OB without spinning the CB.

This is all very well known and long since proven. Arguing against it now is like arguing that the world is flat. It's so yesterday.

pj
chgo
 
Scott Lee said:
Just to be clear, dr. dave is a mechanical engineer at CSU, not a physics professor. No disrepect to dr. dave intended.
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You are correct, I am in the mechanical engineering department, not the physics department (but I am professor). I certainly didn't read any disrespect into your correction. In fact, I appreciate it because engineers, especially mechanical engineers, are generally more applied and practical than physicists. Engineers actually design and build real stuff that works and is useful to society. Not all physicists do this; although, they often create amazing scientific knowledge.

Regards,
Dave
 
Scott Lee said:
Dave...I agree with you. I should have said "no sidespin on the CB is necessary to make this shot"...which is true. Like PJ said, it can be made using sidespin on the CB, as well. My only point is, why use english when it's not required to "help" the shot? Sidespin on the CB lessens accuracy (due to squirt), and requires 'aim adjustment' on the OB...two things I choose to leave out of the equation, whenever I am able.
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I'm with you on this one.

Regards,
Dave
 
Scott Lee said:
PJ...I agree with you. In the case of this cross-side bank, sidespin on the OB (to reverse the angle) is induced due to the cut angle and collision with the CB. That's my point. Cleary was saying it cannot be made without putting english on the CB. That's wrong. I did not say you cannot make it WITH english on the CB...I merely pointed out that it is not necessary. Anytime I don't HAVE to put sidespin on the CB (for a certain reaction to occur), the better off I am! KISS rules! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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I agree, and I think you can get just as much, if not more, sidespin on the OB without spinning the CB - probably by hitting the OB with about a half ball hit and stun.

pj
chgo
 
Pat...Excellent point, in your diagrams! That's all I was trying to say! I don't agree that it's "all well-known", though. Otherwise people would KNOW when they need to put english on the CB, to make the shot happen...and when they don't. The example of the cross-side bank is a clear indication of this. Many people (including some well-known trick shot artists) believe that sidespin on the CB is necessary on this shot. It isn't. I think there's still a LOT of confusion among poolplayers out there...which is why we instructors (the good ones) try to teach our students to 1) use english on the CB sparingly; 2) know what is, and what isn't possible; and 3) know when it is, or isn't an advantage to use it. Most importantly, english on the CB should be utilized mainly for controlling how the CB rebounds off the cushion, for position play.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Patrick Johnson said:
All of the demo shots in this thread need sidespin on the OB in order to make, but none of them need sidespin on the CB in order to put the necessary sidespin on the OB. But you have to start with the CB in the right place. Take my setup for instance:

CueTable Help



In both setups the OB must have spin to go. However, the setup on the right needs CB spin in order to transfer spin to the OB, but the one on the left can transfer spin to the OB without spinning the CB.

This is all very well known and long since proven. Arguing against it now is like arguing that the world is flat. It's so yesterday.

pj
chgo
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Well you see there boys and girls - back in the olden days long before they was this newfangled Texas Express stuff, back when balls would actually spot, this here shot used to come up all the time and we had to know how to make the 8 spin BELOW then nine so that it would be safe. This shot very rarely comes up now.

I learned how to do this when I was 16, oh about 25 years ago. And I guess it's been known a little longer than that.

The cue ball STOPS frozen to the nine or just behind it. The eight goes to the side rail and spins to the left going lower down table than the where the nine is. It was IMPOSSIBLE to hit the 8 ANYWHERE to the right of center or it would make the 9 move as well. So you have hit center ball with low right spin which then transfers left spin to the object ball.


CueTable Help


http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HALD3IALT4PIcC3cALD3caaD3cLmq3cKXu4kIcC3kALC3kALD1uBWO@
 
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JB Cases said:
If you are betting that transferred spin does not exist then I will be happy to take your bet and show one single shot on video that is irrefutable proof that the object ball gets sidespin.

I submit that we each post our wager money with a reputable AZ Member. I nominate Roy Steffensen as he loves to gamble and is not part of this thread. We should both paypal our stake to him and in the spirit of gambling the winner will pick all associated Paypal fees (like table time).

We put it to a vote in a separate thread and let the votes decide.

Bet or no bet?
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I will bet. We can paypal or pay later. I think we both post here enough that we don't want an unpaid bet thread about us.

I would like to see the shot in my diagram done. Lets go 1 and a half diamond from the long rail and long bank the ball using transfer to OB. I will state the same that I have from the start. very very little spin is transfered and will not have enough of an effect to pocket the ball. It must be 100% full ball hit with the OB travelling straight to rail and the transfer spin creating the angle for the long bank.

I will even give you a 50$ buy out option after you try it!
 
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