My short-lived APA experience. (long post)

Richardson...Hmmm...Let's see. You believe that manipulating the "system", aka CHEATING (which is clearly against the written rulesl), is perfectly okay (and you're proud of it, enough to boast about how good you are at it)...and your justification is that "everybody does it". But I'm a dick because I believe that is fundamentally wrong. Okay, now I got it! ROFLMAO I think this falls under "the pot calling the kettle black" scenario.


Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yet scott made himself look like the dick he really is :(
 
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I think I would've died! LOL Actually I understand where Tammy is coming from when she says exciting. There was this young girl (quite cute by the way) on my 9-ball team a few years ago. She was a skl 1! I tried my best to help her but nothing stuck for more than a few minutes. Anyway one night she gets all the rolls and beats a decent skl 3 badly. She was so excited she is just jumping up and down like she won the lottery! I have to admit it was more exciting than my very close win over another higher skl.

LOL it is not a pretty sight Gene. When I played the APA I have seen 82 innings in 2 hours played in 8ball by 2 2's as well. A drinking guy could be plastered before he gets to play if he goes last. :grin:
 
LOL it is not a pretty sight Gene. When I played the APA I have seen 82 innings in 2 hours played in 8ball by 2 2's as well. A drinking guy could be plastered before he gets to play if he goes last. :grin:

Yeah, I saw 2 skl 3's go hill-hill in 39 innings on a 9' medalist one night. I am thinking to myself, "how could it take 13 innings a game to make 8 balls?" The truth is you have some people who show up for league and have not hit a ball since they left the room the week before. When they do "practice" (as they call it) they play with someone else and spend most of their time racking. They will never get any better till they start hitting balls by themselves! Shoot the same shots over and over till they "learn" how to pocket a ball. Stop practicing shots that they shouldn't be shooting anyway. Gain that confidence that comes from hearing the tip hit the CB, the Cb hit the OB and the OB hit the pocket.
 
Did you get qualified for any of the APA events in Vegas this year Gene. I have a couple friends here that play the APA. Husband & wife... he won the singles 8ball at sl6 & she at sl4.. they are both heading out this month I think.
 
Did you get qualified for any of the APA events in Vegas this year Gene. I have a couple friends here that play the APA. Husband & wife... he won the singles 8ball at sl6 & she at sl4.. they are both heading out this month I think.

I will be there! this is usually a nice time of year in Vegas. Not as blistering hot as August and not as cold as it can be in Jan- Feb. Good Luck to your friends hope they play well and have a blast!
 
APA is just not going to be a challenge driven league in my experience. I played it for a couple of years. It was about getting a guy out with no practice and getting some games and beer in.

In College, I played VNEA. I can tell you we had a beautiful thing going on in Bozeman, MT back in the day! We had a few teams that were VERY competative. As in top 2 guys could break and run out with regularity! Now with 8-ball, both people usually got a shot, but if I leave you a shot where you would be lucky to 2 rail kick safe, what kind of a shot is that! Especially after I have 3 balls pocketed?

So, I guess I'm trying to say, you might try VNEA, but I think it mostly plays on coin ops which suck due to ball weight or size!
 
Hey scott, some people are winners and some people cry on an internet message board about the success of others. Which one are you again, i keep forgetting ?


APAGENE, i see what you're saying. The year we took 5th in vegas our 2 (who was an honest 2) won 4 out of 7 matches. The thing that keep happening was teams would throw their 1 or 2 on her and she was just good enough with some good coaching to win somehow. The thing i found funny is that she didnt even realize how well she was doing, she was just happy the team was winning. She did beat a 1, 18-2 and they complained to an official. When he came over i said the 1 gave my player ball in hand 9 times. He asked the other team and they agreed with me, he laughed and walked away.
 
Then I had to leave the match in the hands of a 2 to get the 5th match win. She was against another 2 and it took 35 innings but our player managed. I can assure you that there is nothing more exciting that watching 2 two's duke it out for the big win. This is something that these players may NEVER get the thrill of experiencing - at least not in pool .... and I couldn't be prouder of her!

We had a great time and everyone got their play out!

This is a great quote. Last year, I watched a match between two 3's who both could have been a 2. It was the 5th match in the contest and the winning team got to go to Vegas. The girl that won for her team was so estatic. She had a terrible record that session and I'm sure that she will remember that moment for the rest of her life.
 
Hey scott, some people are winners and some people cry on an internet message board about the success of others. Which one are you again, i keep forgetting ?


APAGENE, i see what you're saying. The year we took 5th in vegas our 2 (who was an honest 2) won 4 out of 7 matches. The thing that keep happening was teams would throw their 1 or 2 on her and she was just good enough with some good coaching to win somehow. The thing i found funny is that she didnt even realize how well she was doing, she was just happy the team was winning. She did beat a 1, 18-2 and they complained to an official. When he came over i said the 1 gave my player ball in hand 9 times. He asked the other team and they agreed with me, he laughed and walked away.

Too funny! Ball in hand in APA 9-ball will kill you! I played a skl 5 (I am an 8) the other night and lost by 6 balls. I missed 3 shots I should have made, misplayed an easy safe (giving up BIH) and scratched twice. If I played better I win easily!

5th! Damn that is good! Anything in the top 35 is awesome for sure....takes a good draw, a little luck and some good matchups for the low skls.
 
The above quotes from your post hit very close to home for me with the exception that I have been in my in-house 8-ball league for about four years now. The etiquette is pathetic in a lot of cases (not all though, there some very fine players in my league that have an absolute knowledge of how to act at AND away from the table). I had a situation a few weeks ago in my 9-ball league where a young couple on the opposing team were cheering/clapping at each shot I missed or failed to get good shape on. After I calmly turned to them (after I couldn't take it anymore) and explained the sportmanship policy of the APA, the sharking got worse. I almost broke my cue down and walked away from the APA that night. What pi$$ed me off the most about that night was that the Captain of their team NOR the opponent I was shooting (who was a seasoned player from BCA leagues) bothered to say a word to them.
All things said, I've decided to stay in APA, but with the understanding that I'm just gonna use this league as a night out with friends and use my matches to work on my game (weaknesses). I'm eventually going to find a BCA league or something equivalent to play in for serious pool.

Maniac
Wow...That's awful. Our APA Division doesn't put up with that CRAP!! The League Operator is called and the offending team automatically forfeits the match. As for sandbagging...I see some here and there. My team is rewarded for winning. I keep track of winning percentages. If they win they play next week. If I need one of the losing players to play, the one with the highest winning percentage plays. It's the fairest system I could come up with and everyone on the team likes it. No more complaints about not playing...If you want to play every week, win your match.
 
Opinion

Well after reading your other post Gene, where you missed 3 balls, misplayed a safety, and scratch 2 times in 1 game, I would say you are overrated.

There is nothing real pleasant about watching 2 or 3's play, it's like going in for a root canal. Players don't even use their brains until they are a 4. And I didn't even mention about having to explain the same rules every week to them, or how to have manners when you play league.

I have happened to have played in the APA, VNEA, and the BCA leagues, in that order over the years. The APA will always have sandbagging problems because of the way they handicap, too few levels of classification. The VNEA is better, but the best and most accurate handicap system goes to the BCA. The VNEA has a little sandbagging, the BCA doesn't. You are what you play in the BCA. Why? Because your handicap will be from 1-75, depending on what you shoot, not 1 to 8 like the APA. Think of it, for every level in the APA, there are 9 BCA levels.

All the leagues have their place in Pool, but most players that take the game seriously outgrow the APA, and usually go on to another league.
 
Richardson...I'm the WINNER...because the day I have to CHEAT to win a game of pool, will be the day I hang my cue up, for good! You can lie to yourself all you want, but sandbagging is cheating, no matter how you look at it (or dress it up with other excuses). 'Nuff said! :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hey scott, some people are winners and some people cry on an internet message board about the success of others. Which one are you again, i keep forgetting ?.
 
Scott...This is simply not true. BCA handicaps, at the local level, vary all over the place, from no handicap, to ratings of 5-15 (which is how BCA is played in MT), to (apparently) 1-75 (which I have personally never seen anywhere)...and there is no handicap at the national level (which is, imo, the way it should be)! VNEA is a joke, as there are really only 3 levels, where you get spotted a point or two each game...8, 9, & 10 (which is playing even), and there's no handicap at the national level. In APA, at least the handicaps are consistent between the local, regional, and national level play. At the local level the APA handicaps are somewhat dependent on the vigilance of the L.O. (although all player scores are downloaded into the APA National mainframe on a weekly basis). At the national level, again imo, the APA is pretty vigilant about sandbagging (which is why, every year, you see players, and sometimes entire teams disqualified in the national tournament...and why every member of every team going to Vegas has to sign a form verifying that they are rated correctly, according to their "real" skill level), and there isn't the amount going on that many posters here would have one believe. If it was as rampant as the APA-bashers suggest, APA would either 1) throw up their hands, and not care; or 2) come up with something different (they did come up with the Masters Divisions, which was somewhat of an answer to the 23 rule, for the better players). To date they have done neither, which suggests to me that things are okay overall. Again, much is this is just my opinion, as I have not been actively involved with APA in the past 15 years...other than as a supporter.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I have happened to have played in the APA, VNEA, and the BCA leagues, in that order over the years. The APA will always have sandbagging problems because of the way they handicap, too few levels of classification. The VNEA is better, but the best and most accurate handicap system goes to the BCA. The VNEA has a little sandbagging, the BCA doesn't. You are what you play in the BCA. Why? Because your handicap will be from 1-75, depending on what you shoot, not 1 to 8 like the APA. Think of it, for every level in the APA, there are 9 BCA levels.
 
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Well after reading your other post Gene, where you missed 3 balls, misplayed a safety, and scratch 2 times in 1 game, I would say you are overrated.

There is nothing real pleasant about watching 2 or 3's play, it's like going in for a root canal. Players don't even use their brains until they are a 4. And I didn't even mention about having to explain the same rules every week to them, or how to have manners when you play league.

I have happened to have played in the APA, VNEA, and the BCA leagues, in that order over the years. The APA will always have sandbagging problems because of the way they handicap, too few levels of classification. The VNEA is better, but the best and most accurate handicap system goes to the BCA. The VNEA has a little sandbagging, the BCA doesn't. You are what you play in the BCA. Why? Because your handicap will be from 1-75, depending on what you shoot, not 1 to 8 like the APA. Think of it, for every level in the APA, there are 9 BCA levels.

All the leagues have their place in Pool, but most players that take the game seriously outgrow the APA, and usually go on to another league.

1-75:shocked2: sign me up. in my bca division we go to 9 and they've already put me at a 7. and i don't think it's right to crack a guy and say he's over rated because he scatched a few times. i've been to some pro tourneys and watched a few of them give up more than a couple ball in hands. and he didn't say he did that in a game i think he meant the match. i love how every one on this forum is a run out artist so willing to jump on and crack people for not being perfect 'cause i'm in poolhalls 5-6 days a week and i'm just not seeing all these good players in the rooms. i guess a lot of them are here typing and only bring the secret "a" game out when they feel like it. as far as the apa goes i've finally given up defending it. it's a lost cause. the system isn't perfect and all people do is ***** about it. i don't see many other leagues popping up. i don't see people trying in earnest to get the apa to change.:deadhorse: i love these threads that just keep heaping the negativity on pool and pool players. no wonder the game can't get anywhere.:shrug:
 
Here I go......

First: no one said that the APA system is perfect. It is however, when USED PROPERLY, a very very good system. It does depend on people doing what they are supposed to. By that I mean NOT ONLY the players themselves when playing - but also the opponents WHO ARE KEEPING SCORE. I don't think that anyone here can argue that if a player wants to sandbag - REGARDLESS OF WHICH LEAGUE THAT THEY PLAY IN - they can and will do it. The difference is what happens if they get caught.

If a player is complaining that other teams are not ranked properly - and they have played this team before - then it can be just as much their fault as it is the players who are trying to sandbag. If your team is playing a match against one of these teams, you should be marking EVERY SINGLE shot that you don't feel was an attempt TO POCKET A BALL as a Defensive Shot. If you are not (which most will admit they don't), then you become a part of the problem. The system depends on AT LEAST ONE of the teams in a match keeping score properly. If you let them get away with it and next weeks team let's them get away with it, then there is where the problem lies.

Now, having said that, I will restate what I said earlier: if someone wants to sandbag, they will. Is that the fault of the system? No. It is the fault of the players who continually look for a way to beat the system. This is the same reason Vegas has to have so many cameras. Even though there are laws against cheating there - people still can't resist. Does that mean that they should close Vegas down? No, they just do the best they can to catch the thieves so that the other 20 million that visit can have a good time. No matter how hard you try - someone will always gain an advantage - you just have to try your best to keep up with their tactics and keep changing your system to catch them.

Second: Does anyone think that there is not sandbagging in the other leagues (BCA, VNEA, TAP, others)? Of course there is..... People blatently shoot the 8-ball in out of turn - knock other players balls off the table, etc... in an effort to #1, hold their handicaps down and #2, boost the handicap of other players. It isn't quite as noticable since you only play the five games per night against five different players, but it is there. The main difference between those leagues and APA is that most - if not all - APA league operators have policies in place to deal with those players when they find out what they are doing. The National Office certainly has ways to deal with them....... but I have yet to see one thing happen to a player in one of the other leagues who does this repeatedly. There is a player in our home town who is always on the winning VNEA team who is WELL known for sandbagging. Yet nothing is ever done and their team wins every single year. So, why doesn't anyone do anything about it?

My point is that NO league is going to catch every sandbagger, but APA at least tries.

If every player tried their hardest to win and if every team kept score properly, the Equalizer system would work extremely well. The fact is that there are both players who won't try their hardest and there are teams that don't keep score properly. It is not the fault of the APA - as this is not a perfect world. I do say that for the average Joe/Jane - who this system is designed for it is the best system.

For those of you out there that are continuously saying that they are "better players" and that the APA is not for them, I say go for it! If you feel that you have outgrown the APA in skill level, then go pro or join another league. The APA has a great singles program for the higher skill level players as well as a Masters Division. If you feel that you play better than the players in APA, then the other leagues may be a better fit, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face..... there is plenty of money in APA. (here we go down that road again....check out the other posts)

I recently had the pleasure of running into one of the better players from our area. When I asked him about playing APA on my team this summer, he began to tell me how he was "too good", etc... and ranted on how he didn't want to be "held down", didn't want to play slop, there isn't any money, etc...... I assured him that he was free to play his very best every time he played (he is definitely a skill level 7) and explained how there was over $150,000 in our area up for grabs). Now, he really doesn't know me from Adam (or in this case Eve), so I asked him if he would like a friendly game. I said if you win, no APA - I won't ever bother you again. If I win, however, you have to play with my team this summer. Not gambling, you understand, but more of a test.... I wouldn't have made him play anyway, just wanted to prove a point.

Race to 5, 8-ball. I win 5-1. He immediately begins telling me how he can't play because he has school, work, ball, etc.... excuses.....

My point is this: he did not want to play APA to begin with. I knew this, but thought I would offer him a slot on my team where he could play as a 7 and play as hard as he wants every week and play as often as he wants. If he didn't want to play, he could have simply said, "No, thanks." But, like most of the "better players" - at least in my area - they feel that they have to bash APA at every opportunity. When he began telling me about why he didn't want to play I just let him go on and on - hence the match. No one is too good to play APA, unless they are a professional. There are benefits in APA FOR ALL PLAYERS.

And, last but not least..... if you don't want to play - don't play, but please don't bash something that you either don't understand or for whatever reason don't like. A very simple, "no, thanks" will usually suffice. Some people DO like the APA (over a quarter of a million of them) and why do some people feel so pressed to ruin the fun for those people.

If you don't like it, don't play. Period.

(and, OP - I am not talking about your post - you stated appropriately, that it just isn't for you! - thanks)

You just said everything I really didn't want to take the tme to type. It's really quite simple and I don't know why so many people feel it nessesary to bash rather than embrace. I for one never said that there were not any baggers out here only that I know how to combat them. As for the person that commented on the number teams that I play on, it's alot cheaper than alot of other things that I could be doing, and besides that I don't play on every team every night every week.

Black Cat
 
Richardson...I'm the WINNER...because the day I have to CHEAT to win a game of pool, will be the day I hang my cue up, for good! You can lie to yourself all you want, but sandbagging is cheating, no matter how you look at it (or dress it up with other excuses). 'Nuff said! :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott you may be a well respected instructor but I got news for you... you don't know everything.. your attitude toward more then one person I have seen you post to is a bit rude to say the least. If someone don't agree with you you attempt to belittle them. Glad I don't take lessons from you as if I did it would be the last.
 
Here is my 2 cents on the APA......i have played in it for about 4 years now in a 8 ball league. My biggest complaint is that it doesn`t encourage you to get better.......i`m a 7 in 8 ball and have had to change teams twice because of handicaps. If you happen to get on a team that you like and actually find a lower skill player(s) that wants to learn you get a double edged sword by helping them. If they improve their skill level then it`s only a matter of time before the team must be broken up. But that`s exactly what the APA wants.......to divide and conquer since it puts more money in their pockets. I only play in it for a chance to go to Vegas, other than that i don`t really care much for it or any other "league" for that matter. Now the sandbagging thing goes on........i see it every week but in the long run it won`t help you any because if you go to Vegas in can only get you disqualified and make you look like a dumbass.

CS
 
mongoose...What makes you think I would accept you as a student? You're correct...I am a well-respected instructor, mostly because I have INTEGRITY. I offer honest knowledge, at a fair price.

As far as attitude goes...I'll say it again. If you believe it's okay to CHEAT, by deliberately sandbagging (some players call it 'handicap management'), then you're no better than Richardson...someone who will do whatever they can, by whatever deceitful means, to win a game/match/session/tournament (take your pick). Best of luck with your pool game!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott you may be a well respected instructor but I got news for you... you don't know everything.. your attitude toward more then one person I have seen you post to is a bit rude to say the least. If someone don't agree with you you attempt to belittle them. Glad I don't take lessons from you as if I did it would be the last.
 
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