My short-lived APA experience. (long post)

I see most teams dont have 2 level 2 players. :)

I also did not realize till reading that you are the L.O. so now i see that you would not be playing in the playoff rounds. Around here up til i quit you had to be 21 to play. We had a junior league which i played in when i was 19-20 but after that went caput.( i am 31 now )
 
HAHAHA.. yes we have had this convo before Eieio59. You know I'm always lightened up but you still haven't sold me on the APA. :grin:

Good to see you post again Tammy even though we don't agree on all things. ;)


No, we don't always agree on all things... but by posting here it is apparent that we both believe that this game and all things pool are worth much discussion!

Here's to running out at will............ (I wish..):D
 
Richardson..... At the beginning of this session, we had a bye in one of our divisions. I decided to put a team together to fill that bye. Of course, one reason I did this was that it keeps from having one team each week who isn't playing (and paying). I always try to fill these byes with players who, for some reason, aren't playing on other teams or were too late to get on teams. It just so happens that our home location allows under 21 players to play, so the first person I enlisted was my daughter. She is 10 and is a skill level 2. So, we had a 7 and a 2 to start. I had a couple that always played but whose team had taken the session off. They were a 5 and a 3. From there we chose our players carefully, but like I explained to them, when it comes to any higher level tournaments, I was not going to be able to play, so we HAD to have another 7. We picked one up the next week. We also picked up a 6 that we knew at some point would be a 7. He did - went to a 7 in like 5 weeks.

So, to answer your question - our team looks like this - 7,7,7,5,3,3,2,2. We can play 7-7-5-2-2 or 7-5-3-3-2 or any other combinations. When we pay attention to our matchups we do well. We try not to put our 7's in situations where they must match up badly. We do not sacrifice our 2's.... we try to put them in positions where they can win or at least get a good nights play. This has been a very successful lineup for us. It is "do-able" if the teams are realistic when choosing their lower skill levels. Don't try to sneak someone in as a 2 that you really believe will wind up as a 4. That is where most teams get in trouble.

It can be done.....

Tammy, I didn't think you could play 2 7s in one match not because of making handicap but for some other reason which escapes me at the moment? Regardless even if you can technically do it for those two lineups to make it to Vegas will be extremely tough if not almost impossible unless you have absolute boss 3s. 2s are not supposed to win so there's "1-2" losses each match almost guaranteed depending on which lineup you throw. Yes they can pull out an occasional win but all in all you get the point. Now if you are doing it for fun no bigge, but if you are trying your best to win just about your only hope for success is if your high handicaps win every single time and then you risk your 5 moving up to a 6 and making it even harder to qualify. It can be done...just probably brutally tough IMO without a more balanced line up.
 
Spimp13...This statement just goes to show that you really don't know what the APA league is all about! It's about playing pool, and having fun. Who say's 2's are not supposed to win (FTR, every year there will be 2's who are crowned National Singles Champion)? The whole point of the handicap system is to give a 2 a FAIR CHANCE to win. I've seen many 7's run out, and scratch on the 8ball, losing their match to a 2 or 3. It's one of the reasons many better players don't want to play APA...because there is the possibility that they can lose to a 'beginner'!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

2s are not supposed to win so there's "1-2" losses each match almost guaranteed depending on which lineup you throw. Yes they can pull out an occasional win but all in all you get the point.
 
Tammy, I didn't think you could play 2 7s in one match not because of making handicap but for some other reason which escapes me at the moment? Regardless even if you can technically do it for those two lineups to make it to Vegas will be extremely tough if not almost impossible unless you have absolute boss 3s. 2s are not supposed to win so there's "1-2" losses each match almost guaranteed depending on which lineup you throw. Yes they can pull out an occasional win but all in all you get the point. Now if you are doing it for fun no bigge, but if you are trying your best to win just about your only hope for success is if your high handicaps win every single time and then you risk your 5 moving up to a 6 and making it even harder to qualify. It can be done...just probably brutally tough IMO without a more balanced line up.

Good question Spimp13... but I think there is a bit of confusion betwee 8 ball and 9ball. In APA 9-Ball, you are only allowed to play 2 "senior" skill levels in a match. Senior skill levels are 6,7,8,9. In 8-ball, however, there is no limitation. You can play a 7-6-6-2-2 and still be okay. That is, by the way, a pretty successful tournament lineup - since you only have to win 3 matches to advance. The 7-7-5-2-2 is also successful.

I don't agree, however, with your analysis that 2's are not supposed to win. A lot of their winning does, however, depend on how you match them up. 2's can and do win a fair percentage of the time, especially - if you get them matched up with other 2's or lower skilled 3's. If your opponent has what you perceive to be a "weak 7", then throwing a 2 up against them can sometimes "upset their apple cart". In a tournament, especially at Nationals, I can see it being a problem because unlike at the local level, you don't know these players very well (unless you have sent out scouts to watch their earlier matchs - like some of my teams have!).

Regardless..... the lineup is what you make it. Just choose it wisely and then go about making it to be the best you can. Sometimes it is a winner and othertimes maybe not. Don't be afraid of 2's or 7's! They are some of the most valuable assets your team can have!
 
Tammy isnt it funny how you were able to answer that question in a informitive and correct way. :)

Yet scott made himself look like the dick he really is :(
 
Just a quick note ....for the record...... last night, I had to post myself against a 4. He is perceived locally to be one of the better 4's. With me being a 7, that means that the race is 5 games to 2 - not usually a place I want to put myself in. In the first game, I tried to run out, didn't get a break out and played safe. Of course, I didn't quite get him tucked in tight enough and he saw an edge of the ball, made it and ran out. Not a difficult run - but a solid one. He is on the hill and I still need 5. NEVER what you want to have, but deal with it (that's what I told myself). We spent the next hour playing those last 5 games because I had to be certain of every shot, every safety and couldn't afford to take any chances. It came down to the last ball in the last game, but I managed.

THAT is what it is all about. I had to play my very best, smartest pool to win that match and - even though he lost - he played wonderfully and we had some great safety battles.

Then I had to leave the match in the hands of a 2 to get the 5th match win. She was against another 2 and it took 35 innings but our player managed. I can assure you that there is nothing more exciting that watching 2 two's duke it out for the big win. This is something that these players may NEVER get the thrill of experiencing - at least not in pool .... and I couldn't be prouder of her!

We had a great time and everyone got their play out!
 
Spimp13...This statement just goes to show that you really don't know what the APA league is all about! It's about playing pool, and having fun. Who say's 2's are not supposed to win (FTR, every year there will be 2's who are crowned National Singles Champion)? The whole point of the handicap system is to give a 2 a FAIR CHANCE to win. I've seen many 7's run out, and scratch on the 8ball, losing their match to a 2 or 3. It's one of the reasons many better players don't want to play APA...because there is the possibility that they can lose to a 'beginner'!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


Scott judging by your posts on here it seems you want to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with what you or Tammy say. That being said APA is NOT ONLY about playing pool and having fun. Those are only two aspects of it (trying to qualify for vegas, getting better and moving up in handicap, learning to coach) just to name a few others. When I say 2's are not supposed to win I was referring to Classics and Masters that they are pretty much a loss 90%+ of the time UNLESS they are playing another 2 or maybe even a 3. Of course the handicap system is giving them a fair chance to win, I was only stating that I thought Tammy's lineups would be tough to qualify to go to Vegas. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THAT SHE SHOULD TELL HER 2'S TO LOSE OR THAT THEY WILL AUTOMATICALLY BE A LOSS. Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth. I have played APA on and off for years and am currently co captain on a team and I let my play and attitude in the league speak for itself. You can ask around Des Moines if I am a poor sport or do not know what is going on in the league or "know what APA is all about". I have a 2 on my team and have helped coach her and she has had multiple wins this session. Instead of assuming things from a post and just trying to bash people who don't agree with you maybe you should think before you type. The more you post it seems the less you know about APA lol.
 
Tammy isnt it funny how you were able to answer that question in a informitive and correct way. :)

Yet scott made himself look like the dick he really is :(


Richardson,

I don't believe that Scott meant anything harsh by his answer.... I really don't. He and I, APA Gene and others have at times - well, lets say - been bludgeoned by the naysayers. (No offense guys!) I just think that at times he, we - all of us let it out!

Many times Scott has explained things in a thread - only to have to repeat himself several times again in the same thread - because he just wants to get the point across and have people understand.

I am glad to be able to shed some light, but please don't shut Scott out - he has a lot to offer.....
 
I never found watching to honest 2's playing exciting :(
I remember one night our 2 and another 2 played a game where on inning #7 i was an open table still. Their match took over 2 hours.
 
Good question Spimp13... but I think there is a bit of confusion betwee 8 ball and 9ball. In APA 9-Ball, you are only allowed to play 2 "senior" skill levels in a match. Senior skill levels are 6,7,8,9. In 8-ball, however, there is no limitation. You can play a 7-6-6-2-2 and still be okay. That is, by the way, a pretty successful tournament lineup - since you only have to win 3 matches to advance. The 7-7-5-2-2 is also successful.

I don't agree, however, with your analysis that 2's are not supposed to win. A lot of their winning does, however, depend on how you match them up. 2's can and do win a fair percentage of the time, especially - if you get them matched up with other 2's or lower skilled 3's. If your opponent has what you perceive to be a "weak 7", then throwing a 2 up against them can sometimes "upset their apple cart". In a tournament, especially at Nationals, I can see it being a problem because unlike at the local level, you don't know these players very well (unless you have sent out scouts to watch their earlier matchs - like some of my teams have!).

Regardless..... the lineup is what you make it. Just choose it wisely and then go about making it to be the best you can. Sometimes it is a winner and othertimes maybe not. Don't be afraid of 2's or 7's! They are some of the most valuable assets your team can have!

I do agree that depending on who the 2 is matched up with helps a lot with their chances of success...just felt I needed to clarify for others that I did not say they are expected to lose or not try to win. Some of the most exciting wins are when a 2 knocks off a giant, I have been there before and have seen it happen with our 2 :).
 
Are you kidding?

Richardson...Know what the sad thing is here? You played APA, went to the National Tournament, sandbagged and are PROUD of it. :( Your "justification" is that "everyone else does it, so it's okay!" Sandbagging is CHEATING, no matter how you try to dress it up. The other thing is exactly what Tammy said...if you don't like it, don't play (and you don't)...but don't bash the APA. Your mama was supposed to have taught you that if you don't have something nice (or constructive) to say, you shouldn't say anything.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If the red text was applied this Forum would shut down!....:wink:
 
The APA penalizes a player and their team when they get better. It promotes people to manipulate the system and sandbag, not to improve. The whole system is bogus.

I played a few seasons. One of the seasons, I did the league operators a favor by creating my own team (they needed another team). I was a 9 in 9ball and a 7 in 8ball. I practiced with and gave lessons to everyone on my team, and they all started to improve. All of a sudden their ratings went up, and we had to forfeit a match every round or else we would go over 23.

Pretty sad to see everyone on my team improve and be penalized for it.
 
If your team is playing a match against one of these teams, you should be marking EVERY SINGLE shot that you don't feel was an attempt TO POCKET A BALL as a Defensive Shot. If you are not (which most will admit they don't), then you become a part of the problem.

No matter how ANYONE explains this to me will I ever agree with this portion of your post (although the rest of your post is brilliant, imo). If I'm hooked behind a ball or two and must kick two or three rails just to HIT my object ball, I am NOT playing defense but rather am just trying like hell to NOT give my opponent ball-in-hand. IMO, I should be credited for an inning in this scenario. It's not an attempt to pocket a ball as your post suggests, but rather an attempt to keep my opponent from getting out with the gift of ball-in-hand. It isn't what the spirit of the true meaning of a defensive shot suggests. Once again, this is just MY opinion. I am not trying to beat anyone over the head with this.

Maniac
 
'Defense' is a misnomer

No matter how ANYONE explains this to me will I ever agree with this portion of your post (although the rest of your post is brilliant, imo). If I'm hooked behind a ball or two and must kick two or three rails just to HIT my object ball, I am NOT playing defense but rather am just trying like hell to NOT give my opponent ball-in-hand. IMO, I should be credited for an inning in this scenario. It's not an attempt to pocket a ball as your post suggests, but rather an attempt to keep my opponent from getting out with the gift of ball-in-hand. It isn't what the spirit of the true meaning of a defensive shot suggests. Once again, this is just MY opinion. I am not trying to beat anyone over the head with this.

Maniac

The thing about the 'defense' box on an APA scoresheet is that all it's designed to keep track of (from what I understand) are shots that you didn't simply miss. Nowhere on the scoresheet is there a spot for 'I miscued', 'my safety SUCKED', 'I got ball-in-hand five shots in a row', 'it would've gone if the pockets weren't double-shimmed' or any other little tidbit of information that could be passed along to give a more accurate picture of the match. But truly, if a little mark is made in that box to show each time a shooter is NOT trying to pocket a ball, the numerical skill level of that shooter will be as accurate as any computer-generated appraisal of a player's abilities can be. And I think they do tend to be quite accurate.
 
p.s.

A league rep in NC once told me that if you kick at a ball with enough speed to pocket it if you did hit it (i.e. if you're not kicking safe), then it doesn't count as a mark in the defense box. So Maniac, in that particular scenario you mentioned, I wouldn't be marking defense. Someone would, however, be expected to mark defense when your safety doesn't get a rail and your opponent runs out with ball-in-hand. Counter-intuitive, huh?
 
Maniac...That's why BOTH teams have a scoresheet. When I was an LO, if two teams sent in scoresheets for the same match, that were polar opposites of each other (i.e.: one team marked 18 defensive shots, and the other team marked zero), I would contact both team captains and ask what happened. Many times I would 'average' the defensive shots, if I thought that neither team really knew what they were doing.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No matter how ANYONE explains this to me will I ever agree with this portion of your post (although the rest of your post is brilliant, imo). If I'm hooked behind a ball or two and must kick two or three rails just to HIT my object ball, I am NOT playing defense but rather am just trying like hell to NOT give my opponent ball-in-hand. IMO, I should be credited for an inning in this scenario. It's not an attempt to pocket a ball as your post suggests, but rather an attempt to keep my opponent from getting out with the gift of ball-in-hand. It isn't what the spirit of the true meaning of a defensive shot suggests. Once again, this is just MY opinion. I am not trying to beat anyone over the head with this.

Maniac
 
No matter how ANYONE explains this to me will I ever agree with this portion of your post (although the rest of your post is brilliant, imo). If I'm hooked behind a ball or two and must kick two or three rails just to HIT my object ball, I am NOT playing defense but rather am just trying like hell to NOT give my opponent ball-in-hand. IMO, I should be credited for an inning in this scenario. It's not an attempt to pocket a ball as your post suggests, but rather an attempt to keep my opponent from getting out with the gift of ball-in-hand. It isn't what the spirit of the true meaning of a defensive shot suggests. Once again, this is just MY opinion. I am not trying to beat anyone over the head with this.

Maniac

In this situation, it is not a safety. If you are caught in a safety, or your opponent just misses and leaves you bad, and you must do something extra just to hit the ball, you are not playing safe. I say this because this is a slop counts league. Getting out of a safety and inadvertently pocketing a ball is the same thing as trying to get out of a safety and making a good hit, or not.

A safety is shooting with no intent to pocket a ball. It can be said for most players (in the APA) that after a good hit is made they hope something goes. It's the APA motto at times...."Poke and Hope"

I also would not consider a 2 way shot a safety.

:cool:
 
I never found watching to honest 2's playing exciting :(
I remember one night our 2 and another 2 played a game where on inning #7 i was an open table still. Their match took over 2 hours.

I think I would've died! LOL Actually I understand where Tammy is coming from when she says exciting. There was this young girl (quite cute by the way) on my 9-ball team a few years ago. She was a skl 1! I tried my best to help her but nothing stuck for more than a few minutes. Anyway one night she gets all the rolls and beats a decent skl 3 badly. She was so excited she is just jumping up and down like she won the lottery! I have to admit it was more exciting than my very close win over another higher skl.
 
Thanks for the props, Scott! You are always out there trying to give out good information and help people understand - and I, for one, appreciate that. Last week, someone asked me a question about pool in private - and I showed them AZBilliards and had them research your posts - because all of their questions could be answered there!

Richardson.... yes, I am a s/l 7 in 8-ball and a 9 in 9-ball. I have to disagree with you though, when you said that you "shot holes in my argument".... you actually made a great point for me. At VNEA and BCA state and nationals they do play scratch - which means that they leave out all of the Joe's and Jane's that want to play and want to get the opportunity to compete at higher level events. In APA, they get to take those skill levels with them and at least have a chance to enjoy and to win on occasion. Not always, some maybe never, but most - way more than they will win at any of the "scratch" tournaments. These people may never get another opportunity like this and I for one, enjoy giving them that possibility. Some people go to the "scratch" events for (and I am using an actual example....) 13 years - and have NEVER finished in the money. In APA, if they make it to Nationals, they are ALWAYS in the money.

So, thanks for making that point for me. 250,000+ people enjoy pool in the APA. Come on guys..... it can't be all bad, right?

tap, tap, tap....good post! I agree. In fact most poolrooms couldn't field one team with all their best players that could cash in the BCA or VNEA National tournament. In APA the winning teams always have players of diverse skill. Some that are true beginners. What a great opportunity for them!
 
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