Europe rocks
- Thread starter berry
- Start date
I believe that Berry doesn't mean that European players are "superior" to US players at all.
Atleast I do share that opinion, if he means so, but I still would like answers to what you Americans feel about the fact that American's didn't perform too good on the World Championships the last 5 years.
I know that Europe has performed real well, and I do believe that a major part of that reason is because many Europeans act like pool is a professional sport, with proper practice, eat correctly, run or go to gym to have better health to increase focus etc..
I know that the Taiwanese have practice-camps, coaches, pool in high-school etc., and they aren't doing too bad either. In Philippines there are coaches too. Bugsy Promotion has a coach and practice-schedule for their players (Alcano, Gomez, Pena, Orcullo etc)
As most of you know I love to root for Europe, and I love it if Europeans beat especially Americans. Not because I dislike Americans, but because I like a fun "war" here on the forum and with friends.
I am worried about pool in America, compared to the rest of the world, because I feel that the majority of people involved in pool in America doesn't act like pool is a professional sport. Also I think it is real sad that there is no real tour in America, and it's a shame men's pool is not on tv.
Perhaps if there was a real tour, with organisers, fans and players treating pool as a sport, it might would increase the chances of getting sponsors, results etc in the newspapers and some tv-time.
Or maybe the way to go is to continue to just highlight the gambling, and hope that live-streaming will help pool make it big-time.
I think Berry could have chosen his words and manner more wisely in this thread, but I think his intentions are good. He want American poolplayers to perform better at the coming World Championships, and wants to know if any of you see it as a problem that American's are performing so "poorly" as they have the last couple of years.
Why is it so and what can be done?
Atleast I do share that opinion, if he means so, but I still would like answers to what you Americans feel about the fact that American's didn't perform too good on the World Championships the last 5 years.
I know that Europe has performed real well, and I do believe that a major part of that reason is because many Europeans act like pool is a professional sport, with proper practice, eat correctly, run or go to gym to have better health to increase focus etc..
I know that the Taiwanese have practice-camps, coaches, pool in high-school etc., and they aren't doing too bad either. In Philippines there are coaches too. Bugsy Promotion has a coach and practice-schedule for their players (Alcano, Gomez, Pena, Orcullo etc)
As most of you know I love to root for Europe, and I love it if Europeans beat especially Americans. Not because I dislike Americans, but because I like a fun "war" here on the forum and with friends.
I am worried about pool in America, compared to the rest of the world, because I feel that the majority of people involved in pool in America doesn't act like pool is a professional sport. Also I think it is real sad that there is no real tour in America, and it's a shame men's pool is not on tv.
Perhaps if there was a real tour, with organisers, fans and players treating pool as a sport, it might would increase the chances of getting sponsors, results etc in the newspapers and some tv-time.
Or maybe the way to go is to continue to just highlight the gambling, and hope that live-streaming will help pool make it big-time.
I think Berry could have chosen his words and manner more wisely in this thread, but I think his intentions are good. He want American poolplayers to perform better at the coming World Championships, and wants to know if any of you see it as a problem that American's are performing so "poorly" as they have the last couple of years.
Why is it so and what can be done?
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The future....We have the BEF (Billiards Education Foundation), local league coaching from APA,BCA,TAP,etc,many individual coaches available including a number of the ladies from the WPBA who operate training camps(?) for children (examples are Angel Paglia and Melissa Little). Lots of up and coming young talent over here.
Current times.....Current players in the USA do what they have to in order to live. Many of our best may never be known because they work regular jobs to put food on the table and hit the local pool hall to get a little extra money off of visitors like Chamat and Appleton. OF COURSE THESE GUYS ARE JUST "PUNKS" RIGHT!
As for the known players they work to their own schedule and quite often are not "INVITED" to play in many tournaments. Other tournaments may be far away and travel is expensive. Yes many of the "known players are getting older and don't travel as much or practice as much, they do other things like actually "running" their own business and raising their kids. Johnny Archer falls into this catagory (wife,kid, business). I'm certainly not going to be critical of any player who has to make those kind of decisions. Besides when old age and retirement do come I figure guys like Archer will have done alright for themselves and their families. Can the same be said for the European Wunders?< (That is a simple question and not a snide comment as I don't know what their retirment plans are...maybe should ask Ortmann
)
We do still have guys willing to play under the right circumstances. As for recent lack of representation in the finals of some tournaments.....what do you suggest? Should we hog tie Archer, Stickland, Robles,Morris, Schmidt, SVB,Owen,Harriman,Bryant,etc and make them watch training videos?
Terry
Current times.....Current players in the USA do what they have to in order to live. Many of our best may never be known because they work regular jobs to put food on the table and hit the local pool hall to get a little extra money off of visitors like Chamat and Appleton. OF COURSE THESE GUYS ARE JUST "PUNKS" RIGHT!
As for the known players they work to their own schedule and quite often are not "INVITED" to play in many tournaments. Other tournaments may be far away and travel is expensive. Yes many of the "known players are getting older and don't travel as much or practice as much, they do other things like actually "running" their own business and raising their kids. Johnny Archer falls into this catagory (wife,kid, business). I'm certainly not going to be critical of any player who has to make those kind of decisions. Besides when old age and retirement do come I figure guys like Archer will have done alright for themselves and their families. Can the same be said for the European Wunders?< (That is a simple question and not a snide comment as I don't know what their retirment plans are...maybe should ask Ortmann
)We do still have guys willing to play under the right circumstances. As for recent lack of representation in the finals of some tournaments.....what do you suggest? Should we hog tie Archer, Stickland, Robles,Morris, Schmidt, SVB,Owen,Harriman,Bryant,etc and make them watch training videos?
Terry
Sorry, Roy. I just can't stand some idiot calling a friend a "punk", just cause he bar-b-qued a Euro gambling. Some guy just running their mouth who knows little. The person in question is most definitely a "name" to those in the know, but obviously not known by all. All I have ever said is that there are good players everywhere. Europe and the states included. But, in all honesty, most of the players here cannot get to most of these tourneys abroad, due to multiple factors(mainly lack of invites, and the inability to offset traveling costs). Having little success in tourneys that do not include more than 5 of our good players is more of a numbers game. Competition is too tough to expect 5 to CONSISTENTLY fade 100 every time. Anyways, I have always valued your input here, and even like trading good-natured barbs, like at Mosconi Cup time. But I will not listen to some random jackass call a friend a punk. Especially a friend that has (guaranteed) done infinitely more in the pool world.
And I am the one that is missing the point?? I ask this whole threat some questions about US Pool and repeditly make it clear (even in bold) I am not waiting on some story about an US player winning against a European, BUT NO mr. Muttley has a nice story about a US road player winning against Marcus...
I am sorry to call your friend a punk, he is of course not, although I don't know him and he could be one, but I'll take your word for it.
Thank you for explaining my words correctly. I think I made a mistake in thinking the readers on this forum could have some seriouse questions in a "fun "war" kind of way. Thoughed that would spice up the borring questions I have and would get more readers involved. (half the objective was achieved)
The future....We have the BEF (Billiards Education Foundation), local league coaching from APA,BCA,TAP,etc,many individual coaches available including a number of the ladies from the WPBA who operate training camps(?) for children (examples are Angel Paglia and Melissa Little). Lots of up and coming young talent over here.
Current times.....Current players in the USA do what they have to in order to live. Many of our best may never be known because they work regular jobs to put food on the table and hit the local pool hall to get a little extra money off of visitors like Chamat and Appleton. OF COURSE THESE GUYS ARE JUST "PUNKS" RIGHT!
As for the known players they work to their own schedule and quite often are not "INVITED" to play in many tournaments. Other tournaments may be far away and travel is expensive. Yes many of the "known players are getting older and don't travel as much or practice as much, they do other things like actually "running" their own business and raising their kids. Johnny Archer falls into this catagory (wife,kid, business). I'm certainly not going to be critical of any player who has to make those kind of decisions. Besides when old age and retirement do come I figure guys like Archer will have done alright for themselves and their families. Can the same be said for the European Wunders?< (That is a simple question and not a snide comment as I don't know what their retirment plans are...maybe should ask Ortmann
We do still have guys willing to play under the right circumstances. As for recent lack of representation in the finals of some tournaments.....what do you suggest? Should we hog tie Archer, Stickland, Robles,Morris, Schmidt, SVB,Owen,Harriman,Bryant,etc and make them watch training videos?
Terry
Very well said!
Let's face it. Another factor about European events is they don't pay squat. That is why the MAJORITY of European pool players come to the States and elsewhere on a repeated basis to compete. If things were so wonderful in Europe, they'd never have to leave. Who in their right mind would want to travel to Europe, pay all the associated expenses, and win maybe a thousand bucks, if you're lucky, for first place?! What a joke. In fact, many of their events don't pay money at all. They're just for bragging rights. LOL!
I once asked a very well-known, high-ranked European champion, "Why do you like to compete in the United States so much?" His response was because the U.S. gives him many more opportunities to compete and earn a living. In Europe, these opportunities are not as abundant.
Of course, maybe that's why the Europeans find AzBilliards, an American-based website, appealing. Just like pool, the United States is the cream of the crop, always has been and always will be, just like this website.
Oh, Europe doesn't have a pool website? Shucks! Maybe there's not enough interest.
WHICH brings me to my next point. I think the U.S. should be allowed two representatives from each State for WPA-ranked events. The European Union sure has its share of allowed players. How big is The Netherlands compared to California?
AND before I get any PMs from WPA supporters about how wonderful the WPA is, I acknowledge the need for the WPA, but in my heart of hearts, I believe there is a little bias with how many representatives are allowed per country, according to the WPA.
Tbeaux has got it right on the money [pun intended]. There are many unknown American pool greats from the past, present, and I'm sure there will be some in the future.
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Thank you for explaining my words correctly. I think I made a mistake in thinking the readers on this forum could have some seriouse questions in a "fun "war" kind of way. Thoughed that would spice up the borring questions I have and would get more readers involved. (half the objective was achieved)
Let's see. You claim that Europe rocks and go on to explain how the European players hold the majority of tournament championship wins.
You then ask what is wrong with the Americans, why can't the Americans win any tournament champion wins, since you believe the Europeans hold the majority of them.
What's funny here with this line of thinking is that Europe bands together as one unit when it comes to "Europe rocks." Yet, when it comes to WPA-ranked events, each country of the European Union should be allowed their own individual representatives, as opposed to one unit of the EU. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
Explaining your logic, you further elaborate on the sophistication of the European pool training, with psychiatrists, coaches, et cetera. By the way, what is your connection to pool? I am wondering what the reason is for this thread to begin with. Are you a pool player, a railbird like me, or are you affilliated with the pool industry in another way? :wink:
Then, after the majority of Americans who read your opinons respond, some feeling insulted, you call one American player who spanked Marcus Chamat a "punk."
Gee, I guess you did spice up the forum with your post, if that was your objective, and you did get more readers involved. Bravo. Mission accomplished.
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Ah, that explains volumes. Thanks, Memikey!
Hope life is treating you well. Things seem to be picking up in my neck of the woods. The stimulus package seems to be working. I'm not sure for how long, but I have noticed a BIG, BIG, BIG difference in mood with the think-tanks in my area :wink:
Well JAM let's hope your optimism is well founded and that you are reading the signs right
Sorry to report that it's quite different out here. Everything is relative of course but compared to how it was before Dubai is now in disastrous recession and has cancelled umpteen projects throwing tens of thousands of Brit, American and other foreign nationality engineers and professionals out of work and left thousands of individuals and companies holding some property investments "on paper" that are unlikely to ever be worth a fraction of what was paid for them, if they are ever constructed in the first place.
I live in Abu Dhabi which has basically all the UAE's oil (Dubai has next to none contrary to many people's perceptions) and they have so far bailed Dubai out with billions otherwise it would be even worse.
In such an economic climate the difficulties involved in the hunt for pool and other sport sponsorship will pale into even more insignificance compared to the personal and corporate tragedies unfolding.
Sorry to report that it's quite different out here. Everything is relative of course but compared to how it was before Dubai is now in disastrous recession and has cancelled umpteen projects throwing tens of thousands of Brit, American and other foreign nationality engineers and professionals out of work and left thousands of individuals and companies holding some property investments "on paper" that are unlikely to ever be worth a fraction of what was paid for them, if they are ever constructed in the first place.
I live in Abu Dhabi which has basically all the UAE's oil (Dubai has next to none contrary to many people's perceptions) and they have so far bailed Dubai out with billions otherwise it would be even worse.
In such an economic climate the difficulties involved in the hunt for pool and other sport sponsorship will pale into even more insignificance compared to the personal and corporate tragedies unfolding.
Well JAM let's hope your optimism is well founded and that you are reading the signs right
Sorry to report that it's quite different out here. Everything is relative of course but compared to how it was before Dubai is now in disastrous recession and has cancelled umpteen projects throwing tens of thousands of Brit, American and other foreign nationality engineers and professionals out of work and left thousands of individuals and companies holding some property investments "on paper" that are unlikely to ever be worth a fraction of what was paid for them, if they are ever constructed in the first place.
I live in Abu Dhabi which has basically all the UAE's oil (Dubai has next to none contrary to many people's perceptions) and they have so far bailed Dubai out with billions otherwise it would be even worse.
In such an economic climate the difficulties involved in the hunt for pool and other sport sponsorship will pale into even more insignificance compared to the personal and corporate tragedies unfolding.
That is so true and unfortunate, as it pertains to pool. :sorry:
Nationally, within the States, the stimulus package seems to be working, according to the experts who analyze these kinds of things. Me personally, I am swamped with work. Last November, before the transition, I was dead in the water. So, for me, I'm happy with the Obama administration's emphasis on getting the economy going.
On an international scale, however, what I am hearing is that there is an emphasis to help developing and poor countries right now, more so than the developed countries. Granted, the developed countries are all having their share of economic woes, but the developing and poor countries are feeling the economic ripple effect much more so.
It's kind of like when there's a recession or depression, whatever you want to call it, the charitable giving and philanthropic endeavors slow down immensely. There is a push for countries to give a small single-digit percentage of their GDP to a vulnerability fund to help developed and poor countries with infrastructure, education, and health/nutrition, so that they don't get any worse than they are.
Pool, especially in recent times, has always been struggling. With the slowdown of prospective sponsors wanting to get involved with the industry, it may hurt some pool entities. Pool in the United States, thanks to people like Pat Fleming, Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, Mike Howerton, Jerry Forsyth, Jay Helfert, regional tour directors like Mike Zuglan, Shannon Daulton, Mike Janis, et cetera (I know I am forgetting some), will help to keep afloat not only in this country but elsewhere.
In essence, it is the above-referenced pool industry members who rock, not Europe! Without them, Europe just might be a dead fish in the water. :wink:
I am Berry, indeed trainer/coach of the Dutch pool Youth, next to that I play / train with Niels Feijen.
Since the Netherland doesn't have the quantities (pool is not very populair)we work hard with our talents to achieve quality. On our group of 8-10 players (age 12-18) we have 2 coaches and one sport psychologist / pedagogue. We train about 5 weekends a year as a group, they get (pool)homework, we go to youth tournaments and all is focussed on the European Youth Championships. All is a complete sport program based on LTAD together with our Olympic sports centre.
Other youth programs are now in many European countries.
Since the Netherland doesn't have the quantities (pool is not very populair)we work hard with our talents to achieve quality. On our group of 8-10 players (age 12-18) we have 2 coaches and one sport psychologist / pedagogue. We train about 5 weekends a year as a group, they get (pool)homework, we go to youth tournaments and all is focussed on the European Youth Championships. All is a complete sport program based on LTAD together with our Olympic sports centre.
Other youth programs are now in many European countries.
Interestingly, I think I read that Niels Feijen is sponsored by his country's Olympic committee. I'm not sure how much funds he receives, but that's a good thing for sure.
I did hear it through the grapevine, however, that Niels, like the rest of the pro players, does endure his share of financial difficulties when it comes to traveling the international tournament trail. In fact, one year, I heard him with my own ears state he would not be able to accept his invitation to the American BCA's invitational event (BCA Open) because he couldn't afford it, after traveling here for other events within the same time period.
In fact, the year he won the Skins Billiards Championship -- $54,000, I think was the number -- after the third of taxes are taken out, then the expenses, then his backer's share, he cleared about $12,000. This is what I heard. I'm not sure if this is fact or not, but if it is fact, it is very revealing how hard it is to be all that you can be in the pool world.
I think it is great that The Netherlands provides opportunities for their youth to acquire the skills needed to advance in pocket billiards.
In the end, however, we all bleed the same blood in this pool world, and that is how to get pool to be considered a legitimate sport, so that maybe, just maybe, non-pool-related industry sponsors will invest in it, allowing it to grow.
All "your" players are indeed young talents... and thanks for giving me a spot when they are playing for money... maybe you could gather your players together and I will pick some and we could have a tournament somewhere in December... We can name the tournament after a great player....hmmm now let me think...
Why is this not in the USA, and how is it arranged for other sport like badminton, squash, swimming, running, ect.
I think it is great that The Netherlands provides opportunities for their youth to acquire the skills needed to advance in pocket billiards.
Thanks, many European country's are doing this now, and how is this done in the USA?
Europe considers it like a legitimate sport, thats the whole point.
LOL...I wasn't giving the greatest players in the world a spot....us americans need a spot right?
There is only 1 great player we could name this event after and i believe 99.9% of poolplayers would agree.....Efren Reyes:thumbup:
Also if we do have this tourney thing....Could we raise the race to a little more than 5??
2008 World cup of Pool - oct 7-12 , OUTLAND ROTTERDAM - somehow this always seems to be never mentioned - eh Ragnar?? Well I hope you and Soldaat van Oranje enjoyed the show also. :thumbup::thumbup:
Very well said!
Let's face it. Another factor about European events is they don't pay squat. That is why the MAJORITY of European pool players come to the States and elsewhere on a repeated basis to compete. If things were so wonderful in Europe, they'd never have to leave. Who in their right mind would want to travel to Europe, pay all the associated expenses, and win maybe a thousand bucks, if you're lucky, for first place?! Keep in mind that there inst exaclty alot of BIG money in pool in the States either... it's all realtive What a joke. In fact, many of their events don't pay money at all. They're just for bragging rights. LOL! O Dear GOD!!! Do you mean that people actually play a game for the pure thrill of being the best...and not to get rich???
That is crazy talk....
I once asked a very well-known, high-ranked European champion, "Why do you like to compete in the United States so much?" His response was because the U.S. gives him many more opportunities to compete and earn a living. In Europe, these opportunities are not as abundant.
Of course, maybe that's why the Europeans find AzBilliards, an American-based website, appealing. Just like pool, the United States is the cream of the crop, always has been and always will be, just like this website.
Oh, Europe doesn't have a pool website? Shucks! Maybe there's not enough interest. You know, this is the internet and there are quite a few european sites devoted to pool and snooker google could help to bring you up tp speed, try it out sometime..
WHICH brings me to my next point. I think the U.S. should be allowed two representatives from each State for WPA-ranked events. The European Union sure has its share of allowed players. How big is The Netherlands compared to California? Ok... then let each state of each country to send two also.. whatever.. You seem to have a problem understanding the concept.. 100 players just from the States plus several houndreds more if the same stips were placed on each country is just to big of a tourny to make happen..
AND before I get any PMs from WPA supporters about how wonderful the WPA is, I acknowledge the need for the WPA, but in my heart of hearts, I believe there is a little bias with how many representatives are allowed per country, according to the WPA.
Tbeaux has got it right on the money [pun intended]. There are many unknown American pool greats from the past, present, and I'm sure there will be some in the future.
The pool WORLD sucks if you are looking to make a living off of it... that doesnt matter where you live or what tour you play on.
The structure of the game here in Europe will produce longterm results for the sport here. The point of Europe being better now has support and is debatable (no matter how much you ignore it), but this set up will produce more and better players for sometime to come.