Well, maybe it's true that for mega draw, you can jack up a bit and get the cue ball airborne, so that it doesn't lose as much backspin from sliding across the cloth. This might increase the amount of draw you get if you plan on drawing the cue ball 20 miles (think of a breakshot). But for medium distance shots, the stroke you use isn't forceful enough to pop the cue ball into the air so it's gonna still slide and lose some backspin. So jacking up won't help.
And even in the first example it might not help.. some of the spin you gain from being airborne will be lost by the fact that jacking up and striking downwards a bit will drive the ball into the cloth harder, killing off some of the initial backspin.
dr dave i am snooker coach from england now living in toronto,
i coach people to have an up to down cue action, this is 1 of the main reasons for having more cue power, i can draw a cueball 30 foot on a snooker table, this technique enables this.
Could you describe "up and down cue action" some more? Is the elbow moving up and down much? I know people can generate more power by involving the shoulder, but not everybody can control this well.
Well, maybe it's true that for mega draw, you can jack up a bit and get the cue ball airborne, so that it doesn't lose as much backspin from sliding across the cloth. This might increase the amount of draw you get if you plan on drawing the cue ball 20 miles (think of a breakshot).
Actually, my analysis suggests that a near-level cue is always better for maximum spin (when elevation is not required to clear a ball or rail or to prevent a double hit), regardless of the shot distance and speed.
But for medium distance shots, the stroke you use isn't forceful enough to pop the cue ball into the air so it's gonna still slide and lose some backspin. So jacking up won't help.
Actually, it is quite easy to get the CB airborne with very little elevation. With small elevations, the CB doesn't go very high, but it is leaving the cloth and taking small hops on the way to the OB.
And even in the first example it might not help.. some of the spin you gain from being airborne will be lost by the fact that jacking up and striking downwards a bit will drive the ball into the cloth harder, killing off some of the initial backspin.
As a follow-up to the thread dealing with draw shot cue elevation effects, I am hoping to get a feel for how many people think jacking up the cue helps create more draw on straight-in shots, even when the cue elevation isn't required (for example, to clear over an obstacle ball).
The only shot I can think of where jacking up would actually create more draw would be when the cue ball is frozen on the rail. Then, you'd have to jack up. For every other draw shot, jacking up would be a detriment.
The only shot I can think of where jacking up would actually create more draw would be when the cue ball is frozen on the rail. Then, you'd have to jack up. For every other draw shot, jacking up would be a detriment.
... or to clear over an obstacle ball, or to prevent a double hit when the OB is close. However, I am excluding these cases. My question concerns jacking up when you don't need to.
I agree, and that's what my analysis showed, but I want to hear what the "other camp" thinks are possible reasons for why a jacked-up cue might help some people get better draw.
I haven't read all of this thread, been avoiding posting in it to be honest, no time for long discussions right now. I do jack up my cue sometimes for other reasons than simply blocking balls or a rail behind the cue ball. I'm not sure I want to discuss these reasons, an old dog has to keep a few tricks to himself.
However, a few things should be addressed. "Level cue" means different things to different people. I note many of the older advocates of a "level cue", Ray Martin for example, actually shoot with the rear of their cue jacked up three or four inches higher than it needs to be for clearance in some photo's. Obviously "level" is relative.
To address your question in this post, some people do draw better jacked up for a simple reason, the direction of force applied to the cue ball. They are uneasy getting as far out on the cue ball as needed with a level cue but by hitting slightly closer to the center at an angle they are getting the same effect as hitting further out while remaining in their comfort zone.
There may be a bit of masse effect actually permitting slightly more draw with a downward stroke than you can get with a level cue or there may be different effective coefficients of friction with the different angles of the hit on the cue ball making the level cue or raised cue more effective. I think that maximum draw effect will be very close to equal with either one until masse does come into play but I'm not interested in testing something that I suspect boils down to splitting hairs. The truth is that I very rarely have need for monster draw. I'm an old school "draw for show, follow for dough" kind of guy.
I do jack up my cue sometimes for other reasons than simply blocking balls or a rail behind the cue ball. I'm not sure I want to discuss these reasons, an old dog has to keep a few tricks to himself.
Actually, one reasons is to get "quick draw" when there is a cut angle (see my June '09 article for more info and examples ... it should be out soon); but with a straight shot, I can't think of any examples where it is advisable to jack up when jacking up is not required.
some people do draw better jacked up for a simple reason, the direction of force applied to the cue ball. They are uneasy getting as far out on the cue ball as needed with a level cue but by hitting slightly closer to the center at an angle they are getting the same effect as hitting further out while remaining in their comfort zone.
There may be a bit of masse effect actually permitting slightly more draw with a downward stroke than you can get with a level cue or there may be different effective coefficients of friction with the different angles of the hit on the cue ball making the level cue or raised cue more effective. I think that maximum draw effect will be very close to equal with either one until masse does come into play
Dave:
...with a straight shot, I can't think of any examples where it is advisable to jack up when jacking up is not required [to bridge over an obstruction].
1. when OB travel must be minimized, as in some safety plays or 1 pocket shots.
2. when the CB must travel sideways after straight-on contact (after-collision masse).
(1) Actually, one reasons is to get "quick draw" when there is a cut angle (see my June '09 article for more info and examples ... it should be out soon); but with a straight shot, I can't think of any examples where it is advisable to jack up when jacking up is not required.
(2) I don't think there is any masse "trapping" effect with modest jacking.
1. when OB travel must be minimized, as in some safety plays or 1 pocket shots.
2. when the CB must travel sideways after straight-on contact (after-collision masse).
PS: My intent was to limit the question and discussion to a plain draw shot, where your only concern is to bring the CB straight back a certain distance with the least effort and most control. But thank you for mentioning the other interesting examples.
1. when OB travel must be minimized, as in some safety plays or 1 pocket shots.
2. when the CB must travel sideways after straight-on contact (after-collision masse).
Touch,(controlling cue ball forward speed) and getting the cue ball spinning as soon as possible are two reasons I jack up sometimes. Another reason is that sometimes I like the view better from up there!
PS: My intent was to limit the question and discussion to a plain draw shot, where your only concern is to bring the CB straight back a certain distance with the least effort and most control. But thank you for mentioning the other interesting examples.
Sorry for the digression, but I have to take my opportunities for spreading info wherever I find them. As a fellow info-spreader, I was sure you'd understand (and participate).
Sorry for the digression, but I have to take my opportunities for spreading info wherever I find them. As a fellow info-spreader, I was sure you'd understand (and participate).
No worries. I was just trying to keep things simple and to the point so the "jack up for more snap" camp could explain their rationale for getting more straight-back draw by elevating.
For more draw, hit lower on the cue ball, and aim for center ball. A nice firm LEVEL stroke will achieve the best results. You'd be surprised how low you can contact the cue ball, as long as you aim for the center axis. The lower you go, the more you will draw the ball. It's that simple.
1. when OB travel must be minimized, as in some safety plays or 1 pocket shots.
2. when the CB must travel sideways after straight-on contact (after-collision masse).
Touch,(controlling cue ball forward speed) and getting the cue ball spinning as soon as possible are two reasons I jack up sometimes. Another reason is that sometimes I like the view better from up there!
I was hoping some examples would make you spill the beans.
I also jack up sometimes when the CB is close to the OB and there's a danger of a double hit if I stroke forward. Seems to be no end of examples... [but none "to get more draw"].
For more draw, hit lower on the cue ball, and aim for center ball. A nice firm LEVEL stroke will achieve the best results. You'd be surprised how low you can contact the cue ball, as long as you aim for the center axis.
No worries. I was just trying to keep things simple and to the point so the "jack up for more snap" camp could explain their rationale for getting more straight-back draw by elevating.
Mathematics and computer programs aside, for me in actual application, a slightly elevated cue (very slight, but definitely not level) produces the best results for power draw (i.e., sheer distance). For my stroke, this is also true even when using a little left or right english (again, for power draw). For precision draw, level has more predictable results.
Also, in reality, I find that most people have a slightly elevated cue despite their belief they are level.
One point to ponder: although your calculations indicate some loss of velocity due to the cue ball contacting the table when skipping, isn't it possible to have a net increase in spin/speed ratio if you can contact the object ball before the cue ball's second table contact (when the cue ball is on a downward trajectory). Thus, where spin reduction due to tip offset is negligible, there can be (substantial?) gains in relative spin loss since there is no loss due to drag.
Here is an experiment that everyone can try to verify if they actually shoot level AND if level is actually better for them:
1) put the cue ball 2 diamond from the pocket.
2) put the cue ball by the side pocket (around 3 diamonds away).
3) both balls are close to the side rail that facilitates draw for your shooting hand (right/left)
4) shoot a number of level power draw shots (say 5 or 10). Go for a record distance, like 15 diamonds of straight draw. Keep track of your results.
5) put a few dimes on the table in line with the shot (2 or 3 or 10) - but put the first one about 9-12 inches away from the cue ball.
6) shoot the same shot again - still going for a draw record.
7a) you should hit the first dime EVERY TIME if you shoot level. [you might launch the cue ball over the rail, so don't shoot towards a window]
7b) if you don't hit the dime - you actually have some angle on your cue.
8a) if you do hit the first dime, elevate ever-so-slightly so you avoid hitting any of the dimes. The key is getting the lowest elevation that allows you to "skip" the dimes.
9) note your results.
[you may surprise yourself and skip all the dimes - every time]
For me, I net between an extra diamond or 2 [sometimes a bit more] with the slight elevation. Again, we're not talking light draw shots, but super whammy shots.
Even more enlightening for my students is missing the first dime when they thought you were shooting level.
