the bunjee tip is made of phenolic resin bits of ground up leather in it to satisfy the BCA requirements. this is what JB told me. he also said he experimented with very hard leather tips, and they worked just as well. specially treated and compressed water buffalo
Good Jump cues without phenolic tips?
- Thread starter djpstacked03
- Start date
Just wondering how long ago JB told you that? Was it recently or years ago?
your cue got taken over.
I already know that that he didn 't introduce the phenolic tip. .
John told me already that the jump rod (Hightower?Y had phenolic tip/shaft combo and some othe jump sticks already had a phenolic tip prior to the Bunjee intro.
Fred
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Thanks, cause I kind of like it better.... But the next time you go to Dickies I will let you take it with you and you can have him match it to my butt. It's f'in ugly!
A
alwayzcocacola0
Guest
so a Phenolic ferrule is fine correct? just no phenolic tips? or are they totally banning phenolic on the cue?
just yesterday actually...
Ah man, even when I want to get away I can't - finally after all this debate about jump cues we finally have an interesting topic.
Ok.
1. Prior to this morning I have never experienced that a phenolic tip puts cracks in the cueball in any fashion and certainly not as been pictured. As many of you know I did countless exhibitions when we were selling the Bunjee and also when selling the Fury break/jump cues. Beyond that I had a collection of about ten brands of jump cues and about eight different cueballs to test on. Conservatively I say I have done hundreds of thousands of jump shots using the Bunjee and the Fury over the last ten years. I have easily done hundreds using other brands of jump cues. I think that if there were an issue with damaging the cue balls using phenolics then I would have seen it prior to now.
2. Having said that - this morning I went to the factory and got several cues with phenolic tips, G-10, and carbon fiber and tried to duplicate the little smiley cracks that have been pictured on AZ. Out of about fifty shots where I was deliberately trying to miscue I was able to actually get one small smiley crack in the surface of the ball. The rest of the attempts did no permanent damage. The smiley crack came from the cue using the G-10. So I can agree that there is a possibility that a combination of tip material, technique and the type of ball could result in visible damage to the ball.
3. I did not introduce phenolic tips on jump cues. There were jump rods on the mid 90's that had phenolic tips. Hans Joerg Bertram in Germany and/or Oliver Stops also in Germany were the first that I knew of who put them on normal shafts.
4. I didn't say that the Bunjee Jumper tip has leather in it to comply with the current BCA Pool League's rules. The tip was made with ground up leather to comply with the WPA and BCA rules that were in place in 1998 when I introduced that brand. In reality though there was no performance difference between the Bunjee tip and a normal phenolic tip, which was the goal. I did however make damn sure that the cue was not in any way shape or form damaging the cueball or the table in any way. Before I introduced the Bunjee Jumper I did thousands of shots on my table in our shop so that I could understand everything about the cue and about jumping balls.
4a. Regarding my comment about Water Buffalo tips. In my experimenting I did compress and treat a Water Buffalo tip to see how it would stack up against the Bunjee Tip. I installed it on a normal Bunjee Jumper and tested it. It worked almost as well as the Bunjee Tip. I felt that I could depend on the jumpability of the Bunjee Tip a little more BUT that the compressed WB tip "felt" better.
5. My view of the BCA's ruling. I think that it is a little extreme to include all materials other than leather in the ban. I think that it may well be the ferrule that is causing the problem when it strikes the cue ball repeatedly on a miscue, in which case many ferrules used on most cues could conceivably cause the same damage. I feel that this warrants further study. I do think that it will hard to enforce and lead to a lot of arguments and pissed off players. I am not really sure how the BCA plans to discern between leather and phenolic on the spot.
I do think that the cue should not damage the ball ever. However I also think that people are not taking into account that part of the problem could be the balls themselves. In my own informal studies I found that some balls will mark up far easier than others.
Pool balls are made of phenolic resin or polyester resin. Both come in many grades and quality levels and the exact "formula" that each ball maker uses is a secret to them. It's for this reason that not many ball makers are able to duplicate Aramith's properties. But even Aramith balls vary in their properties.
It is my opinion that if a ball is being damaged by a collision with a ferrule or a tip then it probably will also be damaged by collisions at velocity with other balls of equal hardness.
In conclusion I think that this will lead to manufacturers coming up with ways to replace phenolics and similar materials with leather tips that have the same or nearly the same performance as phenolics when it comes to jumping balls and velocity of the cue ball off the tip for the break shot.
In the end this is probably a good thing long term so that people stop trying to one-up each other with resin-based tips and we get back to figuring out how to make leather tips work as well.
As I said earlier though I think that the problem most likely lies with the balls though and that the BCAPL should investigate this as it seems like a knee-jerk reaction. If there were a major problem then it surely would have surfaced long before now as phenolic tipped break and jump cues have been on the market for the past ten years.
Going back to lurking.
Ok.
1. Prior to this morning I have never experienced that a phenolic tip puts cracks in the cueball in any fashion and certainly not as been pictured. As many of you know I did countless exhibitions when we were selling the Bunjee and also when selling the Fury break/jump cues. Beyond that I had a collection of about ten brands of jump cues and about eight different cueballs to test on. Conservatively I say I have done hundreds of thousands of jump shots using the Bunjee and the Fury over the last ten years. I have easily done hundreds using other brands of jump cues. I think that if there were an issue with damaging the cue balls using phenolics then I would have seen it prior to now.
2. Having said that - this morning I went to the factory and got several cues with phenolic tips, G-10, and carbon fiber and tried to duplicate the little smiley cracks that have been pictured on AZ. Out of about fifty shots where I was deliberately trying to miscue I was able to actually get one small smiley crack in the surface of the ball. The rest of the attempts did no permanent damage. The smiley crack came from the cue using the G-10. So I can agree that there is a possibility that a combination of tip material, technique and the type of ball could result in visible damage to the ball.
3. I did not introduce phenolic tips on jump cues. There were jump rods on the mid 90's that had phenolic tips. Hans Joerg Bertram in Germany and/or Oliver Stops also in Germany were the first that I knew of who put them on normal shafts.
4. I didn't say that the Bunjee Jumper tip has leather in it to comply with the current BCA Pool League's rules. The tip was made with ground up leather to comply with the WPA and BCA rules that were in place in 1998 when I introduced that brand. In reality though there was no performance difference between the Bunjee tip and a normal phenolic tip, which was the goal. I did however make damn sure that the cue was not in any way shape or form damaging the cueball or the table in any way. Before I introduced the Bunjee Jumper I did thousands of shots on my table in our shop so that I could understand everything about the cue and about jumping balls.
4a. Regarding my comment about Water Buffalo tips. In my experimenting I did compress and treat a Water Buffalo tip to see how it would stack up against the Bunjee Tip. I installed it on a normal Bunjee Jumper and tested it. It worked almost as well as the Bunjee Tip. I felt that I could depend on the jumpability of the Bunjee Tip a little more BUT that the compressed WB tip "felt" better.
5. My view of the BCA's ruling. I think that it is a little extreme to include all materials other than leather in the ban. I think that it may well be the ferrule that is causing the problem when it strikes the cue ball repeatedly on a miscue, in which case many ferrules used on most cues could conceivably cause the same damage. I feel that this warrants further study. I do think that it will hard to enforce and lead to a lot of arguments and pissed off players. I am not really sure how the BCA plans to discern between leather and phenolic on the spot.
I do think that the cue should not damage the ball ever. However I also think that people are not taking into account that part of the problem could be the balls themselves. In my own informal studies I found that some balls will mark up far easier than others.
Pool balls are made of phenolic resin or polyester resin. Both come in many grades and quality levels and the exact "formula" that each ball maker uses is a secret to them. It's for this reason that not many ball makers are able to duplicate Aramith's properties. But even Aramith balls vary in their properties.
It is my opinion that if a ball is being damaged by a collision with a ferrule or a tip then it probably will also be damaged by collisions at velocity with other balls of equal hardness.
In conclusion I think that this will lead to manufacturers coming up with ways to replace phenolics and similar materials with leather tips that have the same or nearly the same performance as phenolics when it comes to jumping balls and velocity of the cue ball off the tip for the break shot.
In the end this is probably a good thing long term so that people stop trying to one-up each other with resin-based tips and we get back to figuring out how to make leather tips work as well.
As I said earlier though I think that the problem most likely lies with the balls though and that the BCAPL should investigate this as it seems like a knee-jerk reaction. If there were a major problem then it surely would have surfaced long before now as phenolic tipped break and jump cues have been on the market for the past ten years.
Going back to lurking.
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A Jump shot is a stroke shot
I would think that the damage being done to the cue ball would be occuring more from break shots as opposed to jump shots.
I asked in an earlier post as John mentioned, just how do they plan on determining what tip is made out of what on the spot during tournament play.
Wasn't that the reason the must be leather rule ceased to be enforced in the past. :ignore:ers.
I don't think sound is going to be reliable.
I also wonder if some cue balls are more prone to damage than others??
I would think that the damage being done to the cue ball would be occuring more from break shots as opposed to jump shots.
I asked in an earlier post as John mentioned, just how do they plan on determining what tip is made out of what on the spot during tournament play.
Wasn't that the reason the must be leather rule ceased to be enforced in the past. :ignore:ers.
I don't think sound is going to be reliable.
I also wonder if some cue balls are more prone to damage than others??
Leather jump tip
Jerico the creator of the stinger has leather tip that performs with phenolic.
They knew the change was going to happen sooner or later so they introduced in 2005 at trade show the first version of this tip.
First mention of this change was when ipt was still here then viking tour.
So this is not a total surprise room owners have been complaining about
phenolic tip for years.
Jerico the creator of the stinger has leather tip that performs with phenolic.
They knew the change was going to happen sooner or later so they introduced in 2005 at trade show the first version of this tip.
First mention of this change was when ipt was still here then viking tour.
So this is not a total surprise room owners have been complaining about
phenolic tip for years.
Iy would seem from JB testing, that it is the g10 , or tips with glass reinforcing that is causing the failures on cue balls, and not phenolics.
If this is on fact the case, then just the g10 type tips should be banned.
They should only be banning tip materials that have shown to be damaging a cue ball.
I am sure a robot arm could simulate a break at 35 mph onto a cue ball and different tips could be tested to see what is actually causing the damage. The cue ball does not have to be hitting a rack each time.
Or a cueball could be dropped from about 35 feet in a tube onto a tip sample in the middle of the tube on the ground.
Whoever does the test, will need to have the respect of the rulemakers.
My thoughts.
Neil
If this is on fact the case, then just the g10 type tips should be banned.
They should only be banning tip materials that have shown to be damaging a cue ball.
I am sure a robot arm could simulate a break at 35 mph onto a cue ball and different tips could be tested to see what is actually causing the damage. The cue ball does not have to be hitting a rack each time.
Or a cueball could be dropped from about 35 feet in a tube onto a tip sample in the middle of the tube on the ground.
Whoever does the test, will need to have the respect of the rulemakers.
My thoughts.
Neil
