Old days 9ball rules

2 foul pushout and "shoot again " were the rules in most rooms in the 60"s and 70"s.
I played for 13 yrs at "wennie bennie"s room in arlington va.
But, texas express didnt invent 1 foul.
Bennie and the brothers form johnston city started 1 foul to speed up their tourneys so they could run 3 sessions a day
pushout was taking to long ( plus they played races to 11 9 ball ).
Their 1 foul rules were....scratch on the break..ball in hand behind the line..spot all balls...scratch on the nine ..ballin hand behind the line...make a ball and scratch..ball in hand and spot that ball.
In the old bca rule books, these rules were called tournment rules....right next to the 2 foul pushout rules...i still have 1 of thoses rule books...lol
Nobody that i knew at bennies or anywhere i played gambled at 1 foul. They were only for tourneys
ahhh...the good ole days...lol
R.I.P Bill wennie bennie Staton
 
dabarbr said:
Why would you get BIH after my first foul? That sounds like any two consecutive fouls is BIH behind the line. If that is not so then that means that I could push out after your first foul making that my first foul.

I know there were different ways to play push out. I normally played any two consecutive fouls was ball in hand, who ever shot after the initial push out had to satisfy the legal hit requirements. It didn't have to be by the same player.
There were push out games that allowed one push out after a push out. This was rare but it was out there. Who ever shot after that would be on one foul. If you think the better player was the favorite with regular push out then they were the absolute favorite with the option to re-push.
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I should have said "scratch" and not foul. After a scratch, your opponent got BIH behind the line. And if he scratched, then you would get BIH behind the line. Any balls made on these shots would spot up. You could also pass this shot back to your opponent, which rarely happened but was quite legal. This is how we played 9-Ball for years all over the country. Eight Ball was the game with a million different set of rules.
 
jay helfert said:
I never played "push out" 9-Ball that way. If you pushed out it was just like the present day push. Your opponent had the option to take the shot or pass it back to you. You couldn't shoot a push shot off your opponent's push. That's a new one on me. And it was always two fouls in a row by the same player. For instance, if I fouled and you got BIH behind the line and then you fouled. I would also get BIH behind the line. By the way, the push was considered the first foul. If I pushed out and you let me shoot and I fouled, you got BIH.
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I agree with you Jay, except that we never played two fouls by the same player. It was any two fouls consecutive. Also, ball in hand anywhere after the two fouls.
 
Pushout said:
I agree with you Jay, except that we never played two fouls by the same player. It was any two fouls consecutive. Also, ball in hand anywhere after the two fouls.
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Maybe you're right about that. My memory is failing me again. I only played about a zillion times back then. How should I remember all the rules? ;)
 
fasteddief said:
A guy named Toby Sweet was unbeatable in pushout. He always pushout to play safe while everybody else pushout to play a bank shot or a tough cut shot or just a bad percentage shot and his skill level for big money was as good as anybody who ever lived. NO Luck shots like today a player misses and he gets the benefit of being lucky and leaves you kicking to play safe or kicking to get lucky so right there it tells you pushout is more skillful
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A guy named Bahd Mowfo was unbeatable in 1 foul. He always shot the ball from were it lay like in every other game in the pool/ billiard world and his skill level for big money was as good as anybody who ever lived. NO pushing out if you didn't like the shot or you played bad shape or just got plain scared and wanted to punt on first down. so right there it tells you pushout is less skillful
 
Pushout said:
I agree with you Jay, except that we never played two fouls by the same player. It was any two fouls consecutive. Also, ball in hand anywhere after the two fouls.
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Yes this was the way for most push out games. Most times we had to go over the rules to make sure we were understood the rules.

In push out games most times that we got into a push out situation you had to anticipate the sequence of moves that would be involved because maybe in three turns or so you might wind up on the short end of the exchange and fall into a trap with no out. You had to guard against that happening.

For me against sharp shooters like Louie Roberts, Keith and others like that I had to make sure that if they took the shot they were playing for a safety. I tried not to let them fire away.
 
dabarbr said:
All that you say here is true except that the most popular way to play was any two fouls in a row was ball in hand.

Playing two fouls by the same players was not quite as popular. This meant that if you pushed out and I didn't like the shot and I didn't want you to shoot it then I could re-push to a different location.

I agree with Fasteddief and Pushout that shooting out and forcing your opponent to play safe was better percentage.
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I guess I need to clarify this, they pushed out to a safe they themselves would shoot if the opponent passed on the push. It wasn't meant to make the opponent play safe, rather to take a tough shot that they might miss.
 
jay helfert said:
Maybe you're right about that. My memory is failing me again. I only played about a zillion times back then. How should I remember all the rules? ;)
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Jay I didn't mean to question your memory, that was just the way it was played in the North East at the time. At least, where I was.
 
Pushout said:
I guess I need to clarify this, they pushed out to a safe they themselves would shoot if the opponent passed on the push. It wasn't meant to make the opponent play safe, rather to take a tough shot that they might miss.
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I guess that I also need to clarify. If they pushed to position that I knew they were going to play safe I would let them shoot unless I saw that it would put me trouble. A mistake could be made by them while attempting that safe. However if they pushed to a make a shot that had small percentages for success I would welcome them to shoot at it.

On the other hand if they pushed to a shot that had good possibilities I would in turn take the shot myself. It's was important to have them to also show respect for your abilities. I would prefer for them to push to where I pretty much knew that they would play a safe. Personally I took pride in my play to force a mistake out of them.

This strategy obviously changed if I was in a mismatch with a lesser opponent. Then I would push for a shot within my range and out of theirs.

Pushout, I think that we're pretty much on the same page. We did what we thought was the best in order to win.
 
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dabarbr said:
Pushout, I think that we're pretty much on the same page. We did what we thought was the best in order to win.
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Oh, I'm sure we are! When I try to explain this kind of thing to people these days, the response I usually get is "Huh??". Push out 9 Ball was not the mindless kind of thing it became with the one-foul-ball-in-hand-anywhere-anytime rules. You really had to think about not only what your own abilities were but those of your opponent as well. Much more along the mind set of One Pocket.
 
Scott Lee said:
Gunn_Slinger...I didn't say randyg et al, invented 1-foul. I said they originated 1-foul, ball-in-hand rules (which is exactly what Texas Express rules were)...which they did! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Scott , I dont know what the difference is between invented and originated?? All texas express people did was take the BCA 9 ball tournment rules from the 70's and early 80's and make a few changes to make the game even faster ( which adds more luck to the game ).
Too bad , 9 ball used to be a good game in the 60's and 70's.
 
It has still not been addressed: What sense does it make for a shooter coming to the table to be able to play the ball from anywhere other than where it lays?

If there is some logical answer, why was the pushout not seen in any other game?
 
Black-Balled said:
It has still not been addressed: What sense does it make for a shooter coming to the table to be able to play the ball from anywhere other than where it lays?

If there is some logical answer, why was the pushout not seen in any other game?
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I think there is a "logical" answer and I've been thinking about this while hitting balls around. This ain't it, but, in that sense, why have ball in hand anywhere at all except behind the line on a scratch? Bring back the spot shot. I remember hearing of people who played that you had to hit the on ball or at least make an attempt to hit it and if missed, the ball was played where it lay. However, in the mid/late '70s when I was learning to play seriously, I never met a good player who played that way. Not one, not ever, none. They always played pushout. I think the answer lies in more explanation of how the game is played. For years I've heard "Ok, so I play safe, you push out, I push out, all day/night, what's the sense of that?" And that's not how the game is played, I would think, obviously.
For Randyg and Scott, before the ball-in-hand-anywhere-anytime rules, which I will from here on refer to as TE, {Texas Express} if 9 ball tournaments were played, what were the rules??
I'll try to come back with an answer to the question later today, as I have to to out for quite a while this afternoon, this after the wife got me up at 5:30 am to go to an estate sale 30 miles away which, when we got there, turns out it starts Saturday. Woman, get your dyslexia under control!
 
Old Day 9-Ball

Yep back in the old days you had to be good at making spot shots or you would loose alot of games.


David Harcrow
 
Black-Balled said:
It has still not been addressed: What sense does it make for a shooter coming to the table to be able to play the ball from anywhere other than where it lays?

If there is some logical answer, why was the pushout not seen in any other game?
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The incoming players pushes out to a location where he can control the balls better. If he can do this better than you, you Will lose. This is why the better player had the advantage. Shooting at them where they lay-ed introduces a bit more luck. Especially if you're hooked.

I have also played eight ball pushout. This was rare but it was out there. The smarter player had the nuts there.
 
fatboy the way you play now... wow... look outside there are limos from over the country waiting to pick u up
 
I cut my teeth on pushout, so I am not exactly in the dark on the matter...

I still think a player should have to shoot the ball from where it stops.

dabarbr said:
The incoming players pushes out to a location where he can control the balls better. If he can do this better than you, you Will lose. This is why the better player had the advantage. Shooting at them where they lay-ed introduces a bit more luck. Especially if you're hooked.

I have also played eight ball pushout. This was rare but it was out there. The smarter player had the nuts there.
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