The APA can kiss my.......

[gpeezy]

A game where playing conditions affect the players enjoyment should be heavily catered to by whom ever is profiting from its participants. You can't cut corners when you are making money. No one can say the APA struggles. Its a slap in the face when you wait all year to get to Vegas and then arrive to such a poor effort to make acceptable conditions.

 

[pooltchr]

The thing is they make hundreds of millions of dollars a year

Let me tell you with 400million in revenue...
Grey Ghost

Well let's look at that for a minute. The APA has 260,000 members. Each pays $30 per year for league dues. That comes to about $800,000 per year. Now we also know that a small part of the weekly dues goes to the APA, and the rest goes to the LO. Let's just say the APA gets $2 from each player every time they play. Average 10 matches per session, and 3 sessions per year, they just doubled their income to $1.6 million.

Please tell me where the other $398.4 million comes from.

Now, out of that revenue, they also have expenses. Just the cost of renting space for the national tournament, payroll for a rather large staff, office space, and all the usual expenses that come with operating any business, and I don't see how the APA is getting rich off players.

As a player, I pay my $30 a year, and $7 on the nights that I play. Even if I don't play a match, I usually get an hour or two of table time, and a little more if I play a match. So I pay the APA a total of $240 per year, and end up getting about 80 hours of table time. That comes out to $3 per hour. Table time in my area runs anywhere from $4 to $8 per hour.

How am I getting ripped off by the APA?

Steve

Steve

 

[TheNewSharkster]

260,000 x $30 = $7,800,000

Also look at all the qualifiers. If memory serves me correctly each board costs $90 and you can have an unlimited amount.

Throw in the weekly dues for every league in the country. I am sure the LO takes home most of this but APA has to get a certain % kickback.

 

[btoneill]

Let's just say the APA gets $2 from each player every time they play.

Not sure if a set amount comes out of each players fee's per week or not, but I do know franchises pay APA 20% of gross income in royalty fees. Not sure if there is a separate amount that comes out of each player each week as well.

And if each player averages 30 matches a year, even if it's just the 20% royalty fee, if the league on averages charges $7/player per week that comes out to be $10m. Just putting out more data, not making judgments.

Brian

 

[pooltchr]

OK, my figures may have been off, but it still doesn't come anywhere close to the $400 million figure someone posted.

Steve

 

[btoneill]

OK, my figures may have been off, but it still doesn't come anywhere close to the $400 million figure someone posted.

Steve

Agreed on that. That is a number pulled out of where the sun don't shine!

To have 260,000 members and $400m in revenue, that would require each player to average $1,500+/year in money spent to the APA National office... Up that amount to cover money that the local leagues get. And that would be gross revenue, than take out marketing and all the other overhead...

Brian

 

[tigerallenyim]

I have played in tournaments and leagues all over the east coast for about 30 years. One thing I have learned is you are going to have to play under all different conditions. Sometimes you are on great tables, sometimes you aren't. But you ALWAYS are playing under the same conditions as your opponent. If you can't adjust to your conditions and your opponent can, you are in trouble.

If the tables were slow for you, they were just as slow for your opponent. We don't always get to play under perfect conditions, no matter what sport we play. Golfers may have a great day on Thursday, and then have windy, damp weather the next day. The greens may be fast one day, and slow the next. They learn to deal with it. Football players play in heat, rain, snow, whatever.

Bottom line, the one who adjusts to conditions the quickest is usually the winner.

Steve

Yep, or use the "force" method.

 

[tigerallenyim]

But I think that if the APA wants to have people happy please let us play on good equipement instead of crap .

In Addition to that, if APA is to represent the sport of Billiards, it should have better equipment to play on. Reason: Promote good habits or that is, having good equipment would aid in APA's image. Sure, it may not even be the APA's actual fault, but from my understanding, they do have the final say of what tables are being used, and who installs them. And yes, I know it is NOT the UPA (Pro), it is APA (Amateur)... but again, if ur promoting the sport of Billiards and want to continue business, it would serve the best interest of both to have some common sense of sporting good equipment.

 

[greyghost]

Sorry it was early and wasn't paying attention, I was grouping all league players into the APA system...which was simply retarted...don't know what I was thinking. And the figure would have been more like 40mil all together I think, not 400...man I gotta drink more coffee before I get on the boards.

G.G.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

IMHO - The APA is a business, the players show up play, send in their dues and mostly follow the rules. The guy that owns the local franchise collects the money and kicks some of it back up to National in St Louis.
In my area, everyone complains about the sandbagging, poor equipment, low pay-out etc etc. but nobody ever does anything other than "call St Louis" and complain. I personally got tired of it all 3 years ago and moved on.
If the APA players want to fix their league, they should boycott it...just sit out a session until the local operator fixed the problems. If 40% of the teams and Income suddenly disappeared I would bet the league operator would fix the issues. Vote with your feet if you do not like the way the league you are playing is run!

 

[Wazuela]

what the hell? I just got back from las vegas where i played in the apa nationals for nine ball. It was a team event and we did ok, we came in the money 65th to 34th bracket. I was shocked at the conditions of the tables, the balls were by far the crapiest balls i have ever seen. One of our teammates got bumped after losing two out of three matches. And the biggest kicker is for finishing 34th in the nation in the apa for nine ball we recieved twenty dollars apiece. Technically we got $500 for the team but the apa took $350 of that back. They give you $350 when you arrive in vegas and if you place in the money they take it back!!!!! Wtf.....

The table we played our last match on rolled every way but straight. I could pick the felt up with my fingers and pull it at least six inches off of the slate. I could push the felt at least three inches causing several wrinkles. And every rail bounced and rebounded differently than the last. I think that a company as big as the apa could do a little better for a "national" event. I am out of the apa and was just wondering if anyone else feels the same or experienced the same.

WAAH!!!!WAAAAHHH!!!!WWWAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!

How much did you pay for your plane ticket and your hotel stay? Ummm..... Let me guess..... Absolutely nothing! Am i right?
Basically your team won a trip to spend a week in Las Vegas with your friends. What's wrong with that?
Everything else should be icing on the cake.
So what the tables weren't top notch? Just like other people pointed out, your opponents are playing on the same tables you are.
I'm guessing that you played bad and were the reason you're team faired so poorly. I'm sure if you played great this thread would have been titled "i love the APA".

Last year I was fortunate enough to experience the APA Nationals & I had a blast. My teammates and myself had no expectations. Just went to have fun.
When I wasn't playing pool, I was in the poker room, or mingling with some very attractive young ladies. I went to Vegas with $400 in my pocket and when I stepped on the plane back to Florida, I had about $500 and a slew full of stories to tell my buddies. (he, he)

I get tired of hearing people bash the APA. It's not perfect. It has it's flaws, but surely you must have some fun playing or else you wouldn't show up every week with your weekly dues in hand ready to play. My advice to you would be to quit playing APA, and start your own league. I understand your just voicing your opinion; but then again opinions are like azzholes, everybodys got one.

 

[Spimp13]

WAAH!!!!WAAAAHHH!!!!WWWAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!

How much did you pay for your plane ticket and your hotel stay? Ummm..... Let me guess..... Absolutely nothing! Am i right?
Basically your team won a trip to spend a week in Las Vegas with your friends. What's wrong with that?
Everything else should be icing on the cake.
So what the tables weren't top notch? Just like other people pointed out, your opponents are playing on the same tables you are.
I'm guessing that you played bad and were the reason you're team faired so poorly. I'm sure if you played great this thread would have been titled "i love the APA".

Last year I was fortunate enough to experience the APA Nationals & I had a blast. My teammates and myself had no expectations. Just went to have fun.
When I wasn't playing pool, I was in the poker room, or mingling with some very attractive young ladies. I went to Vegas with $400 in my pocket and when I stepped on the plane back to Florida, I had about $500 and a slew full of stories to tell my buddies. (he, he)

I get tired of hearing people bash the APA. It's not perfect. It has it's flaws, but surely you must have some fun playing or else you wouldn't show up every week with your weekly dues in hand ready to play. My advice to you would be to quit playing APA, and start your own league. I understand your just voicing your opinion; but then again opinions are like azzholes, everybodys got one.

But how do you feel about the subject...I hate it when you hold back in your posts lol...

 

[Manoman2444]

. Somewhere around 10,000 or so people will probably leave the APA event with the message that Valley tables are a piece of crap.
They are a piece of crap IMHO.

 

[Spimp13]

As stated before, if you don't like it, don't play in it. Whining about pool in Vegas for APA with all the other stuff going on here in the US and around the world is sort of weak...

 

[Mark Griffin]

Tables at APA

Well some of you got it pretty close to right.

The APA cancelled the contract for Diamond to provide the tables at their 2 national events in Vegas.

The reason was because I (Mark Griffin) bought the BCA Pool Leagues. I still cannot agree that Diamond is a competitor of the APA and Valley is not. (I am a partner in Diamond.)

APA has Gary Benson (High Country Promotions) provide the pool tables. And I agree - the cloth work was very poor. Gary usually runs a good show - so probably he contracted out with someone and they did not do right.

Anyway - that is the truth on the tables. Diamond would love to provide the tables for APA events. Diamond is non-political. I am not involved in any day-to-day decisions of Diamond.

It is just the APA and their narrow thought process.

I also agree that APA could do much better. I strongly suggest people go look at the new USAPL (www.playusapool.com) or www.playbca.com.

There are options and the USAPL is way better than the APA. No player member dues, free protected territories, 50% payback on local level, GREAT (proven) handicap system, added money to local and state tournaments, and financial support to pro players.

mark Griffin
702-719-7665

 

[cbi1000]

I say BS. I have been here all week and the tables are fine. They are decent Valley Bar Boxes. Nothing more nothing less. To blame the equipment for your loss is just sour grapes. You will never get any better if every time you play on equipment that is less than perfect you can't play your best (and or win).

As far as the money. They didn't "take it back" as you say. They paid you $350 of your payout when you registered your team. The rest of your payout comes when you get knocked out. Everyone knows that.

This event is the best run amateur tournament in the world bar none.

If you think the tables were fine then i think you and the APA are best frineds.

The table SUCKED, the flat out shiitest tables i've EVER played on. Only once in 12 our so times i played was the table better then average. Every other table had all of the following issues:
1. Dirty balls, not kind of dirty, not a spot here or there, i mean roll the ball in the dirt for 8 years dirty.
2. Cue balls had huge chunks missing. Every cue i looked at and played with had at least one flat spot on it. And not of them have ever been cleaned.
3. Rails, so many rails were too low. So many of them would hop the cue\object ball upon impact.
4. Felt was not tight. There were so many wrinkles it wasn't even funny.
5. Level, LOL, the all had a roll.

Crap crap crap, I will bank the money our league operator pays us to go next time and skip the trip.

APA talkes about being the biggest and the best, the why in GOD's name do you use the worse tables in your biggest event.

 

[Richardson]

It's bad enough on a local level to have to play on crap tables, buts it understandable. On a State or National level is it beyond stupid. We as customers have a right to play on good equipment.

This is in general for all leagues, not just the APA.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

As stated before, if you don't like it, don't play in it. Whining about pool in Vegas for APA with all the other stuff going on here in the US and around the world is sort of weak...

Really? This is a public site for people to talk about pool. If someone doesn't like the tables at the national event that is a valid subject to discuss here. I personally think it is weak to tell people not to play APA if they don't like the tables. Someone can dislike the tables and debate the subject and continue to play in a APA league and enjoy it. Its not like it has to be one way or the other....

 

[cbi1000]

If the tables were slow for you, they were just as slow for your opponent. We don't always get to play under perfect conditions, no matter what sport we play. Golfers may have a great day on Thursday, and then have windy, damp weather the next day. The greens may be fast one day, and slow the next. They learn to deal with it. Football players play in heat, rain, snow, whatever.

Bottom line, the one who adjusts to conditions the quickest is usually the winner.

Steve

Steve,

I think you are missing the point of the post. We all know the conditions are the same. And from the sound of it his team DID go deep into the event.

However, what the poster is stating is here the so called biggest league in the world in its biggest event of the year ended up using the worse tables on the planet.

I was there from Wed to Wed and in all my years I have never, and i mean never see tables so bad. You would hit a ball into a rail and dust would fly up. Balls would hop off of rails, felt was loose, cue balls had flat spots, balls were dirty, really dirty, etc.

I will no longer support the APA. I have played off and on for 15+ years and with growing weekly dues, yearly fees, and now making it to Vegas to see what you get when you get there..... It's too bad.

Neither I nor my opponent should ever have to play on junk like that in a national event.

 

[cardiac kid]

Not being an APA player, I know nothing about the payout structure. The Valley tables however I do know something about. We played on them right after the VNEA left Vegas in the ACS event. My question to you is, are the Diamond small tables too good for us ball bangers? Some of us get so used to playing on the high quality condition provided by the Diamond table we forget how bad it used to be on the Valley's! Plugged cue ball, big cue ball, out of round cue ball, HUGE pockets, etc, etc, etc.

The gentlemen who provides the tables to VNEA, ACS and APA is a friend. I wish I knew what part of the dollar per game he gets to keep. My guess is with nearly 10,000 players at the Riv, the event might generate nearly a quarter of a million dollars in just dollars. I don't know what the race is to. But if there are mini tournaments being held during the entire event, my guess at the table fee income can't be too far off. For that amount of money, there should be enough left over to properly care for the tables. If there is no charge for the tables, no one should be complaining! Just my opinion.

After reading all the posts on this thread, I now understand why so many players are moving to other leagues. For the die hard APA player, the TAP league looks pretty good. Not quite BCAPL standard of play but somewhat better than APA.

Lyn