Sick of all the infighting
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
I've had very little internet time this month and was not able to follow the tournament. I saw a thread one day about the quality (lack thereof) with the stream on the first day and that was the last thing that I saw outside of the vote to change the payout structure of the one pocket event.
Reading your post here, am I correct in assuming that some of the valid concerns and questions the "naysayers" had prior to the event have come to fruition?
The NewStoke clan would like to unite with the Blackjack clan.
well I was thinking in terms of total payouts. Many of the tournaments that players regularly participate in do not pay out the entire entry fee, so if the Taylor Road folks paid out all the entry fees + 80k then I still say kudos to them.
Look I understand exactly what you and others are saying about the payouts not being as advertised, but these payouts were STILL much much better than nearly all the tournaments held in the USA this year. You can count on your right hand the number of times players got over $10k first prize payouts at ALL the tournaments in the USA so far this year and last week at Galveston there were 5 first prize payouts that exceeded $10k.
I don't think anyone is knocking what the taylor road guys did. Their problem was not doing what was advertised. It happens over and over, mistakes are made, promises broken. Remember first impressions are everything. The amateur events were not as advertised. Amateurs were a big sell here and they dogged it big time. Who could play, who couldn't play, how were the team organized? Now next year why would anyone go there as a amateur. This will result in another year of bad attendence other than the top players.
As Blackjack said, players need to organize and get support or leadership to approve or deny events/tours/leagues. This will never happen because players have to play to make money today. Advertised money added disappears all the time, cuts taken from calcuttas, years dues disappear in the accounting and noone is held accountable for the money. The room says they make no money, the players say they dont make money, the promoters say they dont make money. I would like to know where it goes?
I was asked by a promoter to be a player representive for a regional tour because of all the griping about the payouts, calcuttas, etc. I said I would do it if I could see all the funds for the tour, sponsors, leauge dues, entries, who made what for promotion and the host rooms cut,,,,,, crickets, crickets, the guy looks at me like I had lobsters coming out of my ears. But what happens, the players march to the same tune, show up every week, pay the money, and not really care about the bottom line. Some are apathetic, some stop going all together, others may not be smart enough to figure it out. JCIN is doing the math on Galveston, I have done the math for other events I attended and it is never good.
If you run an event or do anything in life:
Say what you are going to do, Do what you say!!
A solid plan is a must, execution of the plan is key.
Noone can complain if all the info is know but that will never happen.
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Again this all comes back to trust. Players arescared they are being had AGAIN, the fans can't believe it when someone wants todo something good and so it gets knocked and torn apart before it has a chance to succeed. Example, If I said I am going to put on 5 tourneys this year with A $500K added for each one. I would get the piss ripped out of me on here and everywhere else. Wheres the money?? where is it comming from? he does not have the money, he don't know what he is doing, it will never last. This scenario of the $500k tourneys would be a great thing for pool but nobody would get behind it and back me up. for the most part anyway. Ok lets say I come on here and sau I am having a $5k added event. Well not I am sure I would be praised and thanked for putting something on and doing something good for pool. See what I mean? if you are small time its ok but don't try and be bigtime cos u don't stand a chance.
Having a organization that will ensure that the deal is real that will make sure the $$ is there and can't be touched would be a benefit to the players and the pool fans.
Hoefully the CSI American Grand Masters will be able to pull a few top pro players together and support each other. Its a start at least.
Having a organization that will ensure that the deal is real that will make sure the $$ is there and can't be touched would be a benefit to the players and the pool fans.
Hoefully the CSI American Grand Masters will be able to pull a few top pro players together and support each other. Its a start at least.
It would be real easy to get all the support in the world for your $500K events. It is so simple and yet no one has ever managed to do it. You know what that is?
POST THE MONEY.
If someone honestly has the resources to do something on the scale you are talking about they would be foolish not to give the venture every chance to succeed. With the money posted in an escrow designated to pay out to event winners there can be no question about money.
Everyone wants to do big extravaganza's on the come. They hope to promote their way to a huge event based on player turnout which NEVER works.
All anyone needs to do for everyone to get on board one of these bigger than life events is to prove that the money is really there and that it will really go to where they say it will.
I agree 100% that an organization is needed to vet promoters and guarantee dates. Till that happens it will be the wild west and every man for himself.
If the money was in a escrow acct with it needing lets say 3 people to sign before it could be touched then it would work. I know that at the Desert Shootout he had the money and showed it in a acct. However he could take the money out whenever he wanted without anyone knowing and I guess that is what happened. If a players organization was to step in and say 'Hey we need this money in a acct where we all need to sign on the checks or the players will not be attending your event" Would the players get behind that? I mean if the organization said This promoter will not post the money so do not attend. Would they go anyway on the off chance that he will pay off? Or would they be willing to take the advise and support the organization and not go? Thats what would need to happen and be done consistanly before promoters would begin to say "Oh well thats what I need to do". As a negative to the players not attending because the promoter didn't post the $$, maybe they will just say screw it and not put on the $20k added event at all and now the players lose the tourney all together and that takes possible money out of their pocket and now we are down to 2 events a year for and example. I hope this makes sense.
Pool is at such a low point, its hard to imagine how anyone could escrow 500k for a new event and still make money. They are doing this to be profitable right? Its far more likely that a 500k escrowed event will happen after the promoter has worked things out and grown an event.
These guys made the effort to create a real pool event and in the process lost six figures. Consider too that had they gone ahead and kept with the outrageous payouts (50k for 39 teams entered is pretty outrageous) then maybe there would have been complete financial implosion on the event and they would have pulled a Trudeau and/or gone completely belly up.
Did anyone not get paid?
I still think this is a situation where the cup has to be viewed as half full.
These guys made the effort to create a real pool event and in the process lost six figures. Consider too that had they gone ahead and kept with the outrageous payouts (50k for 39 teams entered is pretty outrageous) then maybe there would have been complete financial implosion on the event and they would have pulled a Trudeau and/or gone completely belly up.
Did anyone not get paid?
I still think this is a situation where the cup has to be viewed as half full.
It is a chicken or the egg type deal as I see it. You can't have serious money invested in a tour without an organization to guarantee dates and player participation and you cant have a player organization without a tour to give the players a reason be part of the organization.
A promoter will always try to go around a weak organization. A proper organization would be great for a promoter because it could guarantee his dates so most who are for real would welcome it. The key is it must be a strong organization willing to work with promoters and not hold them up for outrageous sanctioning fees.
Players have been playing in the same $20-$25K added events for the last twenty years. Something has to change if the pro's in this country want something different. Usually it requires sacrifice to change something and that is a very tough sell.
uwate - you are correct that they had some nice payouts to the players. But that still does not give omission to the fact that the group did not do what they originally stated. Your question - Did anyone not get paid is only answered as a NO because the added money was reduced to ensure they all got paid. Surely with all the experts guiding them it was told what a realistic turnout would be for a first year event. Then they could have calculated their expenses and come up with a more true added advertised money.
And if they would have been told what a more realistic turnout would be then they could have saved on lesser bleachers, the pool tables that remained in the truck and who knows what else.
The people at the top of the leader boards were happy with there 10k, 25k but I received text messages from players upset on the payouts below and the amount of traveling they did to get Galveston. If they would have known beforehand that the event was 80K added as opposed to 180K, then it would simply be buyer beware.
I have been involved in 3 national tournaments outside of pool over the past 8 months. I do not advertise excessive added money hoping on a maximum turnout. I have a good feel for what the turnout will be and if I don't I utilize the internet forum related to the event.. Haven't had a tournament with a loss yet and the players are always happy. And this has to be all encompassing. From the added money promised, to the quality of the equipment promised, to the timeframe of the event, to the format of the tournament, to the drink specials the location will have for the players. I feel very strongly in backing up my word. Reputation goes a long way and then when there is an unforeseen complication (which there hasn't yet), players can be more forgiving.
The cup is half full if Taylor comes back next year and states we are going to add $100K (not guarantee $25K for first - which is a huge mistake). Then if they get a huge response, take the money and reinvest for next year.
I was impressed with sponsorship outside of pool, such as Ashley furniture. I saw a short clip and believe they raffled off a leather living set and something else. Those are great perks and a great sponsor. Hopefully Taylor Road can make more in roads outside of the 'normal' pool sponsors that we see.
This is the sad part.
80% of the pool playing public doesn't even care.
Why?
If you can't even attract the participants to a MAJOR event, what do you expect to accomplish?
80% of the pool playing public doesn't even care.
Why?
If you can't even attract the participants to a MAJOR event, what do you expect to accomplish?
There is a conflict between what the top players want and need and what lower ranked players want and need. The top guys need a few big money tournaments. The lower players need more local and regional tournaments with low entry fees and decent added money that award points to let them work their way up the pecking order. Thus one of the first decisions of any players organizations should be deciding how many players you want to be truly represented. Ten, 20, 50, 100, 1000, 5000?
In no case should sanctioning fees or player dues ever be required.
In no case should sanctioning fees or player dues ever be required.
A players fee would go a long way towards making a tour or an organization solvent. No other successful organizations that I know of allow membership for free.
If a tour gets going that I can participate in, I have no problems giving them some dues jelly each year. I dont expect anyone to work for free.
If a tour gets going that I can participate in, I have no problems giving them some dues jelly each year. I dont expect anyone to work for free.
I'll chime in on another subject of money and tournaments, but on the local/regional level...
Pool players are cheap.
While not a room owner, I have a good friend who is. I keep trying to get him host some regional tournaments but he refuses because they are money losers. The tours have him put up $1k added and they get a bunch of people in the room. He has to bring in extra staff to handle the crowd. Say you get 64 people to enter. About 20 of them will be buying food/booze. The other 40+ people will be ordering cokes and waters all day. If you watch you'll see them all leaving right after they play a match to run down the street to McD's or the convience store to buy snacks/drinks and sneak them back in.
Now if the folks who showed up for regional tour events supported the rooms the way league players do (ie. buying lots of booze and food) I think we'd be a lot better off. Or, if the room owners didn't have to try to pony up $1k and hope to get that back.
Brian
Pool players are cheap.
While not a room owner, I have a good friend who is. I keep trying to get him host some regional tournaments but he refuses because they are money losers. The tours have him put up $1k added and they get a bunch of people in the room. He has to bring in extra staff to handle the crowd. Say you get 64 people to enter. About 20 of them will be buying food/booze. The other 40+ people will be ordering cokes and waters all day. If you watch you'll see them all leaving right after they play a match to run down the street to McD's or the convience store to buy snacks/drinks and sneak them back in.
Now if the folks who showed up for regional tour events supported the rooms the way league players do (ie. buying lots of booze and food) I think we'd be a lot better off. Or, if the room owners didn't have to try to pony up $1k and hope to get that back.
Brian
Which came first, the chicken....yada,yada !
Justin, (please glance at post #11 to get my basic outlook)
You have a good way of cutting to the chase. I wish I had that quality.
Also, you've gained a very broad, and realistic insight into the pool world and its many shortcomings, and I might add...in a fairly short amount of time. Forgive me if I sound a little awed by that...but I am impressed. Enough kudos for you, on to my humble opinion.
I'm sure you've noticed, that you can have "well meaning" tournament promoters, with all their $$$ on the line, and sponsors...inside, AND outside the industry, all geared up and ready to put on a really big party, and the only people who show up, are the "top tier" of player's. (see GWC)
Granted, the Efren's and the Archer's, etc., are needed to have any chance at a gate. But a well attended event, may only work in the very largest of markets.
Except for the wealthiest, most pool degenerate's (fans) will only travel so far, and can't endure resort price accommodations.
By all accounts, the gate at the GWC, was not only way below expectations, it was DISMAL. I find it hard to believe that Taylor Road Productions, will opt for a second helping of that (at least at Galveston)
I will not claim to be privvy to all the inner workings of the European or Asian touring player's, or their various (and often violent) "stable system's" of controlling them.
But I am a FIRM believer, that until we somehow, someway... ORGANIZE our professional (and second tier) player's...here in the US, we will never get ANYTHING off the ground.
Potential sponsor's and promoter's MUST have a viable and cohesive entity, with which to deal with.
Otherwise, it will remain a Clusterf**k....forever !
There are several similar, and successful models out there to look at. Any astute businessman, with half a brain, would be well advised to study them.
The biggest hurdle is finding ANYONE with the credentials, and the savvy, to take on this thankless (but potentially rewarding) task.
SJD..Dick Mc Morran
PS..Thank God...I am waaay to old for the job.
Justin, (please glance at post #11 to get my basic outlook)
You have a good way of cutting to the chase. I wish I had that quality.
Also, you've gained a very broad, and realistic insight into the pool world and its many shortcomings, and I might add...in a fairly short amount of time. Forgive me if I sound a little awed by that...but I am impressed. Enough kudos for you, on to my humble opinion.
I'm sure you've noticed, that you can have "well meaning" tournament promoters, with all their $$$ on the line, and sponsors...inside, AND outside the industry, all geared up and ready to put on a really big party, and the only people who show up, are the "top tier" of player's. (see GWC)
Granted, the Efren's and the Archer's, etc., are needed to have any chance at a gate. But a well attended event, may only work in the very largest of markets.
Except for the wealthiest, most pool degenerate's (fans) will only travel so far, and can't endure resort price accommodations.
By all accounts, the gate at the GWC, was not only way below expectations, it was DISMAL. I find it hard to believe that Taylor Road Productions, will opt for a second helping of that (at least at Galveston)
I will not claim to be privvy to all the inner workings of the European or Asian touring player's, or their various (and often violent) "stable system's" of controlling them.
But I am a FIRM believer, that until we somehow, someway... ORGANIZE our professional (and second tier) player's...here in the US, we will never get ANYTHING off the ground.
Potential sponsor's and promoter's MUST have a viable and cohesive entity, with which to deal with.
Otherwise, it will remain a Clusterf**k....forever !
There are several similar, and successful models out there to look at. Any astute businessman, with half a brain, would be well advised to study them.
The biggest hurdle is finding ANYONE with the credentials, and the savvy, to take on this thankless (but potentially rewarding) task.
SJD..Dick Mc Morran
PS..Thank God...I am waaay to old for the job.
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I know for a sure that many players are not too happy about the "guaranteed" money situation at Galveston.
13 Filipinos travelled to Texas because of the advertised top heavy pay-outs. This was a golden oppurtunity for the stables in Philippines to send their players, because most likely their players would dominate and bring home the cash. 1 player from each of the stables Bugsy, Negros and Puyat ended up being in the final, and 2 of these players won an event each with the third losing a hill-hill thriller.
Only a handful or less Filipinos would have travelled if they knew the pay-outs would be as they were, and believe me, I am not just guessing. The costs of sending 13 guys to a tournament like this costs A LOT.
I also know of two other top pros, non-filipinos, that were not too happy about the event. They were promised a challenge-match worth $ 5,000, but it was cancelled with no reason, and it was too late for them to cancel their participation on this event.
And just to clarify about the subject of added money vs guaranteed first prize:
Galveston (TRP) said that they would pay $ 50,000 first price in 10-ball, no matter how many players showed up. Bad move, but this is what was advertised.
In my eyes this means $ 50,000 added, but when they spread the money out instead of having a top-heavy payout they didn't add $ 50,000 for the 10-ball event.
Same thing happened with the 1-pocket division and the 8-ball division. The money total added was less than what they guaranteed would be the first prize.
On the + side it was a great event, perhaps one of the best fields for years, they added $ 80,000 which means it became one of the major tournaments this year.
They provided live-stream each night, had lots of viewers and their businesspartner www.betus.com made it possible for people to bet on the winners of each event.
I hope Taylor Road will do a new tournament next year, and I hope they have learnt of all the wrongs they did this year.
I have numerous times helped and supported the players when it comes to pay-outs and promoters not acting correct, (IPT, US Open, World Ten Ball etc.), but I have "resigned" as a guy that cares anymore.
As long as the players do not see the need of, and start, a players organization, they aren't really interested in a change. Then it is their loss, and I really can't feel pity for them.
To get tournaments sanctioned by the WPA won't help either, imo. US Open is sanctioned, yet they cut in the advertised prize money a couple of years ago, and Chia Ching Wu was paid 4 months after the World Ten Ball only after I published that news on my blog. The WPA didn't do a damn thing to support the players then, and I don't see anything that will change in the future unless players unite and start an organization.
That will be a small step for each player - but a big step for the poolcommunity and future poolplayers
13 Filipinos travelled to Texas because of the advertised top heavy pay-outs. This was a golden oppurtunity for the stables in Philippines to send their players, because most likely their players would dominate and bring home the cash. 1 player from each of the stables Bugsy, Negros and Puyat ended up being in the final, and 2 of these players won an event each with the third losing a hill-hill thriller.
Only a handful or less Filipinos would have travelled if they knew the pay-outs would be as they were, and believe me, I am not just guessing. The costs of sending 13 guys to a tournament like this costs A LOT.
I also know of two other top pros, non-filipinos, that were not too happy about the event. They were promised a challenge-match worth $ 5,000, but it was cancelled with no reason, and it was too late for them to cancel their participation on this event.
And just to clarify about the subject of added money vs guaranteed first prize:
Galveston (TRP) said that they would pay $ 50,000 first price in 10-ball, no matter how many players showed up. Bad move, but this is what was advertised.
In my eyes this means $ 50,000 added, but when they spread the money out instead of having a top-heavy payout they didn't add $ 50,000 for the 10-ball event.
Same thing happened with the 1-pocket division and the 8-ball division. The money total added was less than what they guaranteed would be the first prize.
On the + side it was a great event, perhaps one of the best fields for years, they added $ 80,000 which means it became one of the major tournaments this year.
They provided live-stream each night, had lots of viewers and their businesspartner www.betus.com made it possible for people to bet on the winners of each event.
I hope Taylor Road will do a new tournament next year, and I hope they have learnt of all the wrongs they did this year.
I have numerous times helped and supported the players when it comes to pay-outs and promoters not acting correct, (IPT, US Open, World Ten Ball etc.), but I have "resigned" as a guy that cares anymore.
As long as the players do not see the need of, and start, a players organization, they aren't really interested in a change. Then it is their loss, and I really can't feel pity for them.
To get tournaments sanctioned by the WPA won't help either, imo. US Open is sanctioned, yet they cut in the advertised prize money a couple of years ago, and Chia Ching Wu was paid 4 months after the World Ten Ball only after I published that news on my blog. The WPA didn't do a damn thing to support the players then, and I don't see anything that will change in the future unless players unite and start an organization.
That will be a small step for each player - but a big step for the poolcommunity and future poolplayers
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I think it is a mistake to try to start a player's organization that will run its own tournaments or tour.
So if you are not running tournaments, most of the work that needs to be done is decision making. One decision is how many players you want. You can charge $100 dollar a year dues and have a few players or you can have a group that is free to join and has potentially thousands of members.
Most players are already working for less than nothing. It costs a lot of money to go to tournaments, in entry fees and travel expenses, and most players don't cash.
How much really would it have cost to tell Taylor Road Productions their tournament would not be sanctioned without some statement about guaranteed money?
I think you've made an important distinction: the pros need one thing (a big payday) and the amateurs need something else (a chance to compete against the pros at a reasonable cost, with the chance of at least getting their entry fee back).
The way they had things structured at Galveston, there was little appeal for the amateur, and that's why they got a low turnout -- which was, by the way, totally predictable.
Lou Figueroa
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