What he said. And for us internet voyeurs it was fantastic to watch Effie and Shannon etc.
World Classic trash talk.
- Thread starter Jason Robichaud
- Start date
What he said. And for us internet voyeurs it was fantastic to watch Effie and Shannon etc.
It seems there might be some misunderstanding by some about how tv deals work. I don't mean misunderstanding by Hu or Nostroke or anyone else in particular but around pool in general, from all sorts of strange comments picked up along the way in various threads etc which all indicate some misunderstanding.This discussion has taken place before and probably will again and this is just a potted general summary of the subject which might be of use to somebody looking at a bunch of jigsaw pieces on the subject.
Many TV broadcasters will consider broadcasting any kind of minority sports event (in which category, apart from some geographical exceptions, pool realistically falls most of the time as far as broadcasters are concerned) if you can convince them it is worth their while to. The usual determining factor in their decisions in that respect is whether they as a broadcaster think that there will be sufficient audience numbers to satisfy the advertisers that they will be trying to sell space to (or that they have already sold space to on channel annual deals) for the ad slot breaks in broadcast of your product etc.
The TV broadcasters like Versus etc don't necessarily charge you anything to broadcast your event but they certainly don't pay you anything for the pleasure of broadcasting it other than in exceptional circumstances.
It is up to you to give them a completed product suitable for them to broadcast. They won't record it for you. To get to that position you have to pay for a company to produce the material to be broadcast, in this case the material being the play at The World Classic from Galveston. A quality production is not cheap. A poor quality production can also sometimes transpire to be a reason for a TV broadcaster to refuse to broadcast it after they get it.
You as a pool tournament organiser try to fund the cost of you employing that production company in a number of ways, one of which might be by convincing tournament sponsors that their name/logos etc will eventually find their way on to tv broadcast of the play and that the potential benefits of that would justify the tournament sponsors chipping in on the production costs.
It is not difficult to see the many potholes that a tournament organiser can fall into at any stage of those sorts of arrangements without any added complications like there apparently being some kind of deal for TRP to take some contracted broadcast time off IPT's hands (seems odd to me as well Hu that this would still be a live valid transferable contract at this stage). Since we mention the IPT, clearly they for example fell down several of those holes in 2006 as they failed to generate enough income from their early events to fund more events and the production of more tournament tapes to provide to tv broadcasters who by that stage had in any case already determined that the tournaments were of little value to their broadcast schedule due to lack of adequate viewership numbers with the accompanying knock-on resultant lack of interest from their potential channel advertisers.
Mainstream major tv networks can be a slightly different kettle of fish but pool is not in that league at the moment.
Hope this helps some. For the many who already know all this sorry for the boredom and repetition :smile:
Many TV broadcasters will consider broadcasting any kind of minority sports event (in which category, apart from some geographical exceptions, pool realistically falls most of the time as far as broadcasters are concerned) if you can convince them it is worth their while to. The usual determining factor in their decisions in that respect is whether they as a broadcaster think that there will be sufficient audience numbers to satisfy the advertisers that they will be trying to sell space to (or that they have already sold space to on channel annual deals) for the ad slot breaks in broadcast of your product etc.
The TV broadcasters like Versus etc don't necessarily charge you anything to broadcast your event but they certainly don't pay you anything for the pleasure of broadcasting it other than in exceptional circumstances.
It is up to you to give them a completed product suitable for them to broadcast. They won't record it for you. To get to that position you have to pay for a company to produce the material to be broadcast, in this case the material being the play at The World Classic from Galveston. A quality production is not cheap. A poor quality production can also sometimes transpire to be a reason for a TV broadcaster to refuse to broadcast it after they get it.
You as a pool tournament organiser try to fund the cost of you employing that production company in a number of ways, one of which might be by convincing tournament sponsors that their name/logos etc will eventually find their way on to tv broadcast of the play and that the potential benefits of that would justify the tournament sponsors chipping in on the production costs.
It is not difficult to see the many potholes that a tournament organiser can fall into at any stage of those sorts of arrangements without any added complications like there apparently being some kind of deal for TRP to take some contracted broadcast time off IPT's hands (seems odd to me as well Hu that this would still be a live valid transferable contract at this stage). Since we mention the IPT, clearly they for example fell down several of those holes in 2006 as they failed to generate enough income from their early events to fund more events and the production of more tournament tapes to provide to tv broadcasters who by that stage had in any case already determined that the tournaments were of little value to their broadcast schedule due to lack of adequate viewership numbers with the accompanying knock-on resultant lack of interest from their potential channel advertisers.
Mainstream major tv networks can be a slightly different kettle of fish but pool is not in that league at the moment.
Hope this helps some. For the many who already know all this sorry for the boredom and repetition :smile:
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just guessing
Do bear in mind that I am just guessing, I am putting two and two together and that can give you four or twenty-two even in just base ten!
I think that the real deal was that the IPT had talked ESPN into an advance payment and they owe programming, not that they are entitled to air time they have purchased. If so then Taylor Road could step into a deal with the business arrangements already made just getting the IPT out from under their obligation. If the folks at Taylor Road were really good negotiators they might have got some of that advance I am speculating about from the IPT, if not they would have gotten the remainder of any payments that ESPN Star was committed to.
Several places for such a deal to go awry just as it seems it did. Just a lot of guesswork on my part but I think the IPT was trying to slide out from under an obligation that they couldn't fill and hang on to the dollars or most of them too. If my guess is right it could have still been a win/win deal for all parties concerned had it worked out. Of course this is all based on the belief that the Asian market pays for pool programming, at least major events.
Hu
Do bear in mind that I am just guessing, I am putting two and two together and that can give you four or twenty-two even in just base ten!
I think that the real deal was that the IPT had talked ESPN into an advance payment and they owe programming, not that they are entitled to air time they have purchased. If so then Taylor Road could step into a deal with the business arrangements already made just getting the IPT out from under their obligation. If the folks at Taylor Road were really good negotiators they might have got some of that advance I am speculating about from the IPT, if not they would have gotten the remainder of any payments that ESPN Star was committed to.
Several places for such a deal to go awry just as it seems it did. Just a lot of guesswork on my part but I think the IPT was trying to slide out from under an obligation that they couldn't fill and hang on to the dollars or most of them too. If my guess is right it could have still been a win/win deal for all parties concerned had it worked out. Of course this is all based on the belief that the Asian market pays for pool programming, at least major events.
Hu
I don't think any Asian TV network, including Star Sports in the past or the ESPN Star joint venture now would have paid one cent for the right to broadcast this event. Give 'em a good edited tape containing players they are interested in and they'll broadcast it but that's it. You make your dough from your sponsors and they make their dough from their advertisers....maybe, just maybe....a small nominal fee or a small percentage of any TV broadcaster's advertsing income above a standard amount coming back to the event organisers, but doubt that it could be anything more than that for a new venture like this.
TRP may have missed a good broadcast opportunity and lost some credibility with potential broadcasters but I doubt they missed out on any actual payment from Asian TV.
To put this in perspective how much does anyone think an Asian TV network would pay for the right to broadcast the US Open 9 ball, assuming the US Open organiser paid for and supplied them with a quality production to broadcast?
Edit........just for the record I enjoyed the live streams immensely not least thanks to some quite good commentary work.
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I don't want to repeat myself in all kind of threads, so I will just copy and paste my replies in other threads.
*******************'
1. They advertised before the event with a larger 1.prize
2. They STARTED the event without saying anything, which means all the players at the event thought the 1.prize still was guaranteed
3. They shouldn't force the players to make a decision like that, after the event is started and people are already at the venue. ALL players thought that $ 25 k was 1.prize when they booked their flights, and even after they had played their first matches. 90 % of the players would probably bet on Efren to win the tournament before the event started. Now, after the event started, these players got a christmas present from the organizer, and could "legally" robbing $ 10k from Efren by voting for spreading it around. Who are the selfish pr!cks in this scenario?
4. IF someone should choose option 3 again, atleast let the players vote on a piece of paper instead of raising hands. That way we can prevent that HOF and the most famous poolplayer will be called a selfish pr!ck in the future, just for wanting the deal that was advertised and guaranteed
*******************
I know for a sure that many players are not too happy about the "guaranteed" money situation at Galveston.
13 Filipinos travelled to Texas because of the advertised top heavy pay-outs. This was a golden oppurtunity for the stables in Philippines to send their players, because most likely their players would dominate and bring home the cash. 1 player from each of the stables Bugsy, Negros and Puyat ended up being in the final, and 2 of these players won an event each with the third losing a hill-hill thriller.
Only a handful or less Filipinos would have travelled if they knew the pay-outs would be as they were, and believe me, I am not just guessing. The costs of sending 13 guys to a tournament like this costs A LOT.
I also know of two other top pros, non-filipinos, that were not too happy about the event. They were promised a challenge-match worth $ 5,000, but it was cancelled with no reason, and it was too late for them to cancel their participation on this event.
And just to clarify about the subject of added money vs guaranteed first prize:
Galveston (TRP) said that they would pay $ 50,000 first price in 10-ball, no matter how many players showed up. Bad move, but this is what was advertised.
In my eyes this means $ 50,000 added, but when they spread the money out instead of having a top-heavy payout they didn't add $ 50,000 for the 10-ball event.
Same thing happened with the 1-pocket division and the 8-ball division. The money total added was less than what they guaranteed would be the first prize.
On the + side it was a great event, perhaps one of the best fields for years, they added $ 80,000 which means it became one of the major tournaments this year.
They provided live-stream each night, had lots of viewers and their businesspartner www.betus.com made it possible for people to bet on the winners of each event.
I hope Taylor Road will do a new tournament next year, and I hope they have learnt of all the wrongs they did this year.
I have numerous times helped and supported the players when it comes to pay-outs and promoters not acting correct, (IPT, US Open, World Ten Ball etc.), but I have "resigned" as a guy that cares anymore.
As long as the players do not see the need of, and start, a players organization, they aren't really interested in a change. Then it is their loss, and I really can't feel pity for them.
To get tournaments sanctioned by the WPA won't help either, imo. US Open is sanctioned, yet they cut in the advertised prize money a couple of years ago, and Chia Ching Wu was paid 4 months after the World Ten Ball only after I published that news on my blog. The WPA didn't do a damn thing to support the players then, and I don't see anything that will change in the future unless players unite and start an organization.
That will be a small step for each player - but a big step for the poolcommunity and future poolplayers
*******************'
1. They advertised before the event with a larger 1.prize
2. They STARTED the event without saying anything, which means all the players at the event thought the 1.prize still was guaranteed
3. They shouldn't force the players to make a decision like that, after the event is started and people are already at the venue. ALL players thought that $ 25 k was 1.prize when they booked their flights, and even after they had played their first matches. 90 % of the players would probably bet on Efren to win the tournament before the event started. Now, after the event started, these players got a christmas present from the organizer, and could "legally" robbing $ 10k from Efren by voting for spreading it around. Who are the selfish pr!cks in this scenario?
4. IF someone should choose option 3 again, atleast let the players vote on a piece of paper instead of raising hands. That way we can prevent that HOF and the most famous poolplayer will be called a selfish pr!ck in the future, just for wanting the deal that was advertised and guaranteed
*******************
I know for a sure that many players are not too happy about the "guaranteed" money situation at Galveston.
13 Filipinos travelled to Texas because of the advertised top heavy pay-outs. This was a golden oppurtunity for the stables in Philippines to send their players, because most likely their players would dominate and bring home the cash. 1 player from each of the stables Bugsy, Negros and Puyat ended up being in the final, and 2 of these players won an event each with the third losing a hill-hill thriller.
Only a handful or less Filipinos would have travelled if they knew the pay-outs would be as they were, and believe me, I am not just guessing. The costs of sending 13 guys to a tournament like this costs A LOT.
I also know of two other top pros, non-filipinos, that were not too happy about the event. They were promised a challenge-match worth $ 5,000, but it was cancelled with no reason, and it was too late for them to cancel their participation on this event.
And just to clarify about the subject of added money vs guaranteed first prize:
Galveston (TRP) said that they would pay $ 50,000 first price in 10-ball, no matter how many players showed up. Bad move, but this is what was advertised.
In my eyes this means $ 50,000 added, but when they spread the money out instead of having a top-heavy payout they didn't add $ 50,000 for the 10-ball event.
Same thing happened with the 1-pocket division and the 8-ball division. The money total added was less than what they guaranteed would be the first prize.
On the + side it was a great event, perhaps one of the best fields for years, they added $ 80,000 which means it became one of the major tournaments this year.
They provided live-stream each night, had lots of viewers and their businesspartner www.betus.com made it possible for people to bet on the winners of each event.
I hope Taylor Road will do a new tournament next year, and I hope they have learnt of all the wrongs they did this year.
I have numerous times helped and supported the players when it comes to pay-outs and promoters not acting correct, (IPT, US Open, World Ten Ball etc.), but I have "resigned" as a guy that cares anymore.
As long as the players do not see the need of, and start, a players organization, they aren't really interested in a change. Then it is their loss, and I really can't feel pity for them.
To get tournaments sanctioned by the WPA won't help either, imo. US Open is sanctioned, yet they cut in the advertised prize money a couple of years ago, and Chia Ching Wu was paid 4 months after the World Ten Ball only after I published that news on my blog. The WPA didn't do a damn thing to support the players then, and I don't see anything that will change in the future unless players unite and start an organization.
That will be a small step for each player - but a big step for the poolcommunity and future poolplayers
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I posted the following somewhere else too, but I just saw Roy's post and I wanna be over here too 
******************
As I mentioned, the only reason so many of the World's best players showed up is because something was GUARANTEED. They didn't come because they enjoy the weather in Galveston. They didn't come to put on a good show for the fans. They came to try to make money. Money that was GUARANTEED.
Once it was apparent that the promises weren't going to be met, the players should have not played. Thats the only way to prevent this from happening over and over. I know that will never happen, and if the top players did collectively agree to not play, then the second string would gladly step up, because they want the money. Is a no-win situation, I know, but the players should keep their pride and stop letting promoters lure them into a situation by offering certain terms and then changing the terms once they're there. Of course they'll play for less money, they've just spent money travelling and are stuck there with nothing else to do.
However, the players job is not to put on a good show. Thats the promoters job. As much as fans may think it is, it isn't. The players are there to earn a living. If a player chooses to be more "fan-friendly", then that is best for his or her personal success level (Jeanette)... the smarter players realize this and do what they can to expand their fan base, which may attract sponsor money, more invitaions to events, etc... But just being there and playing and trying to win is all they are there for. It is the promoters job to attract top quality players, keep them happy, and provide a good situation for fans to enjoy.
If the players had collectively refused to play, seems like most people here would call them selfish and that they spoiled it for the fans, but thats not the case. If the players were forced to collectively quit, then blame the promoter, they're the ones that ruined it for the fans. In this case, offering a GUARANTEE of something and then not delivering. The players need to start doing things like this to better themselves in the long run.... I don't think it will ever happen, but it should.
I personally would be much more impressed if I heard that the Worlds best players walked out because the promoters did not deliver what was promised. Yes, that would suck for all the fans that traveled all the way there to watch the event, and spent money to watch the event... but again, thats not the players' fault, you can't hold the players accountable for the event not delivering as promised... its the promoters.
******************
As I mentioned, the only reason so many of the World's best players showed up is because something was GUARANTEED. They didn't come because they enjoy the weather in Galveston. They didn't come to put on a good show for the fans. They came to try to make money. Money that was GUARANTEED.
Once it was apparent that the promises weren't going to be met, the players should have not played. Thats the only way to prevent this from happening over and over. I know that will never happen, and if the top players did collectively agree to not play, then the second string would gladly step up, because they want the money. Is a no-win situation, I know, but the players should keep their pride and stop letting promoters lure them into a situation by offering certain terms and then changing the terms once they're there. Of course they'll play for less money, they've just spent money travelling and are stuck there with nothing else to do.
However, the players job is not to put on a good show. Thats the promoters job. As much as fans may think it is, it isn't. The players are there to earn a living. If a player chooses to be more "fan-friendly", then that is best for his or her personal success level (Jeanette)... the smarter players realize this and do what they can to expand their fan base, which may attract sponsor money, more invitaions to events, etc... But just being there and playing and trying to win is all they are there for. It is the promoters job to attract top quality players, keep them happy, and provide a good situation for fans to enjoy.
If the players had collectively refused to play, seems like most people here would call them selfish and that they spoiled it for the fans, but thats not the case. If the players were forced to collectively quit, then blame the promoter, they're the ones that ruined it for the fans. In this case, offering a GUARANTEE of something and then not delivering. The players need to start doing things like this to better themselves in the long run.... I don't think it will ever happen, but it should.
I personally would be much more impressed if I heard that the Worlds best players walked out because the promoters did not deliver what was promised. Yes, that would suck for all the fans that traveled all the way there to watch the event, and spent money to watch the event... but again, thats not the players' fault, you can't hold the players accountable for the event not delivering as promised... its the promoters.
Mikey - you certainly do have a good understanding of the way that television works in general. I have not been too critical of Taylor Road but they messed up badly on the TV deal.
ESPN Star would probably have taken matches that featured Filipino players.
With Efren, Ronnie, Roberto and Warren all reaching the late stages of the events this could have been substantial coverage.
But when I saw the equipment that was provided I was shocked to even think that they imagined that they would get any broadcastable material out of the tournament,
MP3 headphones, third rate monitors and no credible communication and editing facilities. When Jim Wych turned up he was equally horrified.
It was no surprise that he asked to be relieved of his duties as it would have tarnished his reputation.
Joey took over his mantle with nothing to lose. But such was his success that I don't think that he would agree to work under such conditions again. At one stage he had to secure his headphones with a (used) cotton bud.
There are many companies in the production market who are capable of producing high quality HD output, which media companies would accept. Generally they will pay very little for the material but they can give you wide exposure which is where your sponsors benefit. No doubt that will be high on the agenda should Taylor Road should emerge from the ashes.
ESPN Star would probably have taken matches that featured Filipino players.
With Efren, Ronnie, Roberto and Warren all reaching the late stages of the events this could have been substantial coverage.
But when I saw the equipment that was provided I was shocked to even think that they imagined that they would get any broadcastable material out of the tournament,
MP3 headphones, third rate monitors and no credible communication and editing facilities. When Jim Wych turned up he was equally horrified.
It was no surprise that he asked to be relieved of his duties as it would have tarnished his reputation.
Joey took over his mantle with nothing to lose. But such was his success that I don't think that he would agree to work under such conditions again. At one stage he had to secure his headphones with a (used) cotton bud.
There are many companies in the production market who are capable of producing high quality HD output, which media companies would accept. Generally they will pay very little for the material but they can give you wide exposure which is where your sponsors benefit. No doubt that will be high on the agenda should Taylor Road should emerge from the ashes.
I posted the following somewhere else too, but I just saw Roy's post and I wanna be over here too
******************
As I mentioned, the only reason so many of the World's best players showed up is because something was GUARANTEED. They didn't come because they enjoy the weather in Galveston. They didn't come to put on a good show for the fans. They came to try to make money. Money that was GUARANTEED.
Once it was apparent that the promises weren't going to be met, the players should have not played. Thats the only way to prevent this from happening over and over. I know that will never happen, and if the top players did collectively agree to not play, then the second string would gladly step up, because they want the money. Is a no-win situation, I know, but the players should keep their pride and stop letting promoters lure them into a situation by offering certain terms and then changing the terms once they're there. Of course they'll play for less money, they've just spent money travelling and are stuck there with nothing else to do.
However, the players job is not to put on a good show. Thats the promoters job. As much as fans may think it is, it isn't. The players are there to earn a living. If a player chooses to be more "fan-friendly", then that is best for his or her personal success level (Jeanette)... the smarter players realize this and do what they can to expand their fan base, which may attract sponsor money, more invitaions to events, etc... But just being there and playing and trying to win is all they are there for. It is the promoters job to attract top quality players, keep them happy, and provide a good situation for fans to enjoy.
If the players had collectively refused to play, seems like most people here would call them selfish and that they spoiled it for the fans, but thats not the case. If the players were forced to collectively quit, then blame the promoter, they're the ones that ruined it for the fans. In this case, offering a GUARANTEE of something and then not delivering. The players need to start doing things like this to better themselves in the long run.... I don't think it will ever happen, but it should.
I personally would be much more impressed if I heard that the Worlds best players walked out because the promoters did not deliver what was promised. Yes, that would suck for all the fans that traveled all the way there to watch the event, and spent money to watch the event... but again, thats not the players' fault, you can't hold the players accountable for the event not delivering as promised... its the promoters.
This is totally and completely *on the mark.*
As long as players (and fans) continue to accept playing a shell game, they (we), are enablers and will get the pool world we deserve.
Lou Figueroa
thanks!
Mike,
Thanks for fleshing things out. My speculations about Kevin Trudeau and the IPT were based on the fact that he had a proven product before things went to hell. He also is quite the con man. After that I was basing things on second hand reports of how popular pool is in Asia. As you said it all comes down to viewers.
If you can only entice a few, you do all of the production and try to talk the networks into airing the video for free. The network calls all of the shots including often claiming the long term rights to the video which is why we see pool used as filler on ESPN, it is free footage.
If you get past a certain point in viewer counts you start getting a few dollars for your footage and may even have a little negotiating power as far as residuals and such.
Then a very few get to dictate terms to the networks. The networks pay them major dollars and the networks insure quality footage. Think Bowl games, NFL, NASCAR, the Olympics, events of this size.
There are also times when the people providing the footage also either pay for the privilege of providing it or find sponsors on their own to advertise during their broadcasts. Anyone want to guess what level pool in the US is at?
Hu
Mike,
Thanks for fleshing things out. My speculations about Kevin Trudeau and the IPT were based on the fact that he had a proven product before things went to hell. He also is quite the con man. After that I was basing things on second hand reports of how popular pool is in Asia. As you said it all comes down to viewers.
If you can only entice a few, you do all of the production and try to talk the networks into airing the video for free. The network calls all of the shots including often claiming the long term rights to the video which is why we see pool used as filler on ESPN, it is free footage.
If you get past a certain point in viewer counts you start getting a few dollars for your footage and may even have a little negotiating power as far as residuals and such.
Then a very few get to dictate terms to the networks. The networks pay them major dollars and the networks insure quality footage. Think Bowl games, NFL, NASCAR, the Olympics, events of this size.
There are also times when the people providing the footage also either pay for the privilege of providing it or find sponsors on their own to advertise during their broadcasts. Anyone want to guess what level pool in the US is at?
Hu
That's a BIG pothole. Your opinion is appreciated and needless to say given your extensive experience and knowledge, respected. All I wanted to do was give the normal middle of the road pool player a general step by step rough picture of how these things work because I have found over the years that a lot of pool players have unrealistic perceptions of tv companies paying big bucks and doing almost everything involved in leading up to an event being broadcast, tournament organisers just having to sit back and count profits. Alas reality is much more down to earth. I have dealt with Star Sports direct several years ago re broadcast of regional minor rugby and soccer events.
I really enjoyed the streams and have no comment to make on prize money or anything else like that as I wasn't an entrant or an attendeee.
Re the future, seems to me it's clear that a very substantial financial hit was taken by the owners of the event. I wish them luck for the future after the dust has settled and they have made their assessments.
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