Diamond Vs Valley Bar Boxes?

[Johnnyt]

Unless you have some money to throw away, I would stick with the table you have. Diamonds are nice, and I prefer them given the choice. But, you don't have a normal Valley anymore. It's a good upgrade from a regular Valley. At the A-B level, you are pretty much hitting the center of the pocket anyways. You surely are with smaller pockets. The Diamond will not improve your game any just because it's a Diamond.

The most you will probably get out of your Valley is about $500. So, unless you are getting one heck of a deal on the Diamond, you will be out a considerable chunk of change.

If I do upgrade to a Diamond (which I don't think I'll do now) I'd be giving the table to my daughter and son-in-law who both play pool. They have 2 teenage daughters that like all sports including pool. So I wouldn't be getting anything for it.

The table plays so good now that it's very playable from 30% humidity to 85%. Not many can say that about their outside table in Florida or other state with high humidity. It took me a few tris and some money but I got it as good as it can be. Johnnyt

 

[5ballcharlie]

I dont agree. Ive played on both and like both. Both products are great tables imo and especially if you have your valley tweaked to make it play tougher, I dont see the reason to be spending to change up.

When it comes to bar boxes the valley tables and the diamond tables are the two best choices. They are alot closer than a chevette/corvette is. Thats more like comparing Sears cardboard table vs Diamond Smart tables.

I totally agree. I have played on some diamond bar box tables that play extremely easy. Valley tables are really easy until you have to shoot one in the side at speed and a tough angle. At least on a diamond 7ft you have bigger side pockets. I prefer the diamond of course.

 

[Andrew Henson]

I think I play better on the diamond. Super fast, easy position. Good spread on the break, the rails play true. The pro cut pockets make it tougher but not unfair. I played on a dirty valley barbox with a mudball last night and missed my diamond. I shot the best scores I ever have on the coin op diamonds with the bigger pockets. They just play so true

 

[KMRUNOUT]

For what its worth, I am a very strong B or low A player. I have played on tons of Valleys and Diamonds. Overall, I would say that there is zero question in my mind which is the better table: the Diamond. Here are the differences as I see them:

Diamond has:
- better, truer rails
-tighter pockets with MUCH deeper shelves. This means you need to shoot the ball in the hole. This means this type of pocket favors the "better" player.
-nicer rails and pockets. The Diamond is much smoother along the top rails, there is no chunk of metal to avoid near the corner pocket. Also, the construction of the rails and cushions eliminates that extremely annoying condition that develops on Valley rails in which the cushion cloth is ever so slightly below the plastic top to the rail, creating a wonderful device for shaving down the shaft of your cue. I can tell you how many times I've gone to bridge on the rail, only to feel this sharp lip scrape at my cue, and need to change to a bridge *on top* of the rail where I really would not have wanted to do that.

Now, the question was which one do you play better on? Hmm...lets see. I certainly pocket balls better on the Valley, since the pockets are giant buckets. However, my opponent will gain the same benefit. I tend to play well on tight pockets, so I feel I have more of an advantage on the Diamond. BTW, I think the stock Valley corner pockets are like 5 1/4". HUGE! Anyway, the other major issue is the consistency. Every Diamond I have ever played on played at least good, if not great. Some Valley tables have played good, maybe even great. But many have played terrible. I believe the design of the rails (the bolts on the side to secure the rubber to the rail) is not the best. Go up to any Valley table, remove the little metal strip on the side, and see how many of those rail bolts are tight. It is rare that more than 1/2 of them are at any random time. This means each rail will play differently.
I know my best performances have come on a Diamond. Still, I think if I were to have a rack running competition, I might do a little better on the Valley, assuming it was set up the best it could be.

Overall, I'd still rather have the Diamond by a huge margin.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I think I play better on the diamond. Super fast, easy position. Good spread on the break, the rails play true. The pro cut pockets make it tougher but not unfair. I played on a dirty valley barbox with a mudball last night and missed my diamond. I shot the best scores I ever have on the coin op diamonds with the bigger pockets. They just play so true

Hmm...the more I think about it, I might take the Diamond in my rack running competition. My best scores have also been on Diamonds (in 9 ball). My best scores have been on Valley tables in 8 ball, but only because I've played about 200 matches on a Valley for every one I play on a Diamond!!

KMRUNOUT

 

[nuts4pool]

To me it all depends if you are shooting on a standard Diamond vs. Valley or a procut Diamond vs. Valley tables.I currently own both (upgraded to a procut)and my valley with new rails,simmonis cloth and arimith balls played almost the same.We started a in house league and switched to procut top Diamonds and they are different enough for me to switch.Two other players also switched to procuts to be competitive.Just my opinion.

 

[Secaucus Fats]

I have not understood Valley not changing their pocket modeling to something more player and cue friendly.

I posed this question not long ago to a mechanic and got a cant happen answer which surprised me... Why not make a kit for $1000 or so that
changes current Valleys, Dynamo or Globals to tables with more Diamond like pockets and playability.

I figured it could be done and that many rooms would pay for it.

Valley tables are primarily marketed to amusement companies, the amusement companies, in turn, supply them to bars. (Most bars in urban areas do not own the table(s) in their establishments.) The bars and the amusement operators split the weekly take on an agreed to percentage.

The majority of bar players are not hard core pool players, they are casual players (bangers) and the date night crowd. Tightening up the pockets makes the games take longer and makes it more difficult for the casual players, which means less money for the bar owners and the amusement companies.

Bars that own their own tables, and have a lot of good players, may choose to cater to the better players by purchasing Diamond tables because it makes good business sense to them. For those establishment the additional cost of a Diamond Smart table can be recouped quickly and helps keep their leagues and tournaments hopping (along with their sales of beer, booze, and food).

IMO, a $1000 kit for a $2000 table just doesn't make much good business sense.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the Diamond bar tables. But the above is just reality, a case of "it is what it is".

 

[Dead Crab]

It may depend what kind of rubber is on those ridgebacks.

The Diamond is a great banking table, and the Valleys I've been on bank like crap.

But, if the ridgebacks have Artemis rubber, you might not be stepping up that much.

 

[Majic]

I haven't played on a Diamond 7' table enough to make a good comparison. For those of you that play on both a 7' standard Valley and a 7' standard Diamond, as an "A" or "B" player do you feel that you will play a ½ ball or a ball worse on the Diamond?

My Valley has tight Tour Edition cloth on it so it's super fast and I put "therealking cobra" (Glen's) "Ridgeback Rails" on it that makes it bank much better and the pockets are cut at a different angle so they are not 4 1'2" buckets anymore. You can't cheat them that much anymore. I'd say now the table plays much closer to a Diamond than a standard Valley.

The reason I ask is I might have a deal on a diamond coming up and if it isn't that much difference I'll pass on spending the money. Thank you. Johnnyt

Sounds like a cool setup on the Valley. The only knock I have on valley is the metal all around the table that you don't see on a diamond. But what you have probably PLAYS great.

 

[mrmagoo42]

I play about the same on both.

But cosmetically there is a huge difference. Metal over valley's corner pockets have scared many of my cues over the decades. I was playing in the Labor Day Classic in MN on Diamonds and a friend that breaks from the corners showed me his cue that had black stripes running down his cue. They cleaned up easily. Diamond is a step up in skill as well you learn what pocket speed is pretty quick.

 

[jonesy]

The diamond 7 footer plays sooo good. If you have loved ones you could give your valley table to that are into pool thats awesome. Sounds like a no brainer get yourself a Daimond

 

[nuts4pool]

Maybe not

Valley tables are primarily marketed to amusement companies, the amusement companies, in turn, supply them to bars. (Most bars in urban areas do not own the table(s) in their establishments.) The bars and the amusement operators split the weekly take on an agreed to percentage.

The majority of bar players are not hard core pool players, they are casual players (bangers) and the date night crowd. Tightening up the pockets makes the games take longer and makes it more difficult for the casual players, which means less money for the bar owners and the amusement companies.

Bars that own their own tables, and have a lot of good players, may choose to cater to the better players by purchasing Diamond tables because it makes good business sense to them. For those establishment the additional cost of a Diamond Smart table can be recouped quickly and helps keep their leagues and tournaments hopping (along with their sales of beer, booze, and food).

IMO, a $1000 kit for a $2000 table just doesn't make much good business sense.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the Diamond bar tables. But the above is just reality, a case of "it is what it is".

I am from a small town in northern Mn.,the bar I shoot in has 5 Diamond procut smart tables.If that is not enough they have simmonis cloth,aramith pro balls (have a diamond ball cleaner also) and are only 50 cents to play.While other bars in area are dead this bar is always hopping.Owner is not cleaning up but is still making enough to be profiable.

 

[jay helfert]

For what its worth, I am a very strong B or low A player. I have played on tons of Valleys and Diamonds. Overall, I would say that there is zero question in my mind which is the better table: the Diamond. Here are the differences as I see them:

Diamond has:
- better, truer rails
-tighter pockets with MUCH deeper shelves. This means you need to shoot the ball in the hole. This means this type of pocket favors the "better" player.
-nicer rails and pockets. The Diamond is much smoother along the top rails, there is no chunk of metal to avoid near the corner pocket. Also, the construction of the rails and cushions eliminates that extremely annoying condition that develops on Valley rails in which the cushion cloth is ever so slightly below the plastic top to the rail, creating a wonderful device for shaving down the shaft of your cue. I can tell you how many times I've gone to bridge on the rail, only to feel this sharp lip scrape at my cue, and need to change to a bridge *on top* of the rail where I really would not have wanted to do that.

Now, the question was which one do you play better on? Hmm...lets see. I certainly pocket balls better on the Valley, since the pockets are giant buckets. However, my opponent will gain the same benefit. I tend to play well on tight pockets, so I feel I have more of an advantage on the Diamond. BTW, I think the stock Valley corner pockets are like 5 1/4". HUGE! Anyway, the other major issue is the consistency. Every Diamond I have ever played on played at least good, if not great. Some Valley tables have played good, maybe even great. But many have played terrible. I believe the design of the rails (the bolts on the side to secure the rubber to the rail) is not the best. Go up to any Valley table, remove the little metal strip on the side, and see how many of those rail bolts are tight. It is rare that more than 1/2 of them are at any random time. This means each rail will play differently.
I know my best performances have come on a Diamond. Still, I think if I were to have a rack running competition, I might do a little better on the Valley, assuming it was set up the best it could be.

Overall, I'd still rather have the Diamond by a huge margin.

KMRUNOUT

You left out one other very important thing, THE CUE BALL! On a Diamond you use a real cue ball (red circle or whatever you prefer). On a Valley you must use the magnetized ball or the one with a metal element in it or some other jacked up ball. And to be blunt, it just doesn't play right!

On a Diamond, I feel like I'm playing real pool. On a Valley I'm hoping the cue ball doesn't roll funny on me. Playing tight position is always chancy on a Valley.

 

[frankncali]

Valley tables are primarily marketed to amusement companies, the amusement companies, in turn, supply them to bars. (Most bars in urban areas do not own the table(s) in their establishments.) The bars and the amusement operators split the weekly take on an agreed to percentage.

The majority of bar players are not hard core pool players, they are casual players (bangers) and the date night crowd. Tightening up the pockets makes the games take longer and makes it more difficult for the casual players, which means less money for the bar owners and the amusement companies.

Bars that own their own tables, and have a lot of good players, may choose to cater to the better players by purchasing Diamond tables because it makes good business sense to them. For those establishment the additional cost of a Diamond Smart table can be recouped quickly and helps keep their leagues and tournaments hopping (along with their sales of beer, booze, and food).

IMO, a $1000 kit for a $2000 table just doesn't make much good business sense.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the Diamond bar tables. But the above is just reality, a case of "it is what it is".

True but it wouldnt be purchases or even wanted by all or most bars.
I asked myself how many owners whether its bar or home have tables like a Valley coin op yet drool over the Diamond. I think its alot.
Maybe a 1k conversion is too much. Maybe it could be cheaper but I think if I had a Valley that I would pay 1k to make it play better overall.

Diamonds while I love them are pretty high for many people.

I also dont see where the cost of the Diamonds would be recouped faster unless owners raised the prices. Which contrary to most peoples logic isnt a good thing.

Everything aside.. I want a Diamond, hopefully will be able to get one and if I ever opened a room I would explore every option to get them.

 

[onepocketron]

No contest here. Diamond wins out by a land slide. It isn't even close.

 

[frankncali]

Can anyone post the true prices for an individual to purchase a new
Diamond 7fter and a Valley 7fter?

What about rough comparison between good used versions?

 

[Johnnyt]

Can anyone post the true prices for an individual to purchase a new
Diamond 7fter and a Valley 7fter?

What about rough comparison between good used versions?

7' Valley new is about $3000
7' Diamond Smart table about $5000

You can pick up a used Valley for $500 and tweak it to play right for another $300 Including the use of a regular QB.

Used Diamonds almost 3 times that.

I know that the Diamond plays better than a Vally with regular QB, Ridgeback rails, and top on the line cloth...but not much better IMO. Johnnyt

 

[poolhustla61508]

I think your fine with what you've got

If you've got a good playing Valley stick with it. I feel like the biggest difference is the way the pockets are cut other than that their both great barboxes.

 

[skeeterpro]

Diamond vs Valley

Ask yourself this question, "what do I play on most of the time for tournaments, leagues, and other events" If it's a valley stick with it. I have a 9 foot Diamond Pro-Am that came from the US Open and the rails on the 7 foot tables don't play anything like the rails on my 9 footer. For instance, shoot the cue ball into the rail with some speed and watch how many times the cue ball goes back and forth across the table, you'll note that it's absurd. Beware though it may rebound off the first rail and hit you in the head!!!! The wildly uncontrolable speed is limited to the 7 foot smart table and pro-am as the professional model in the 7 foot version plays like a table should.

RKC told me the rails on most of the 7 foot Smart tables and Pro-Ams are too low and actually upon rebound put an excessive amount of top spin on the cue ball. Most of the time you'll see the cue ball jump or hop a coming off the first and second rails gong back and forth from across the table. You can make the table play a little more resonable by lifting the rails and putting quarters under the rails before tighting them up again.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

You left out one other very important thing, THE CUE BALL! On a Diamond you use a real cue ball (red circle or whatever you prefer). On a Valley you must use the magnetized ball or the one with a metal element in it or some other jacked up ball. And to be blunt, it just doesn't play right!

On a Diamond, I feel like I'm playing real pool. On a Valley I'm hoping the cue ball doesn't roll funny on me. Playing tight position is always chancy on a Valley.

Jay,

I have posted various threads in the past about how I don't like even the best magnetic ball. I am ashamed at myself for leaving this out. I actually thought about it while posting but decided I was taking it for granted that we would be using a regular cue ball in each example (since if you *own* the table, I assume you are not feeding coins into it lol!).

But yeah, that is a pretty big deal. I should also point out that any positive comment I gave about Valley tables were under the assumption that we are using a regular cueball. If I am forced to use a heavy or oversize ball, I stay home. If I am forced to use the plugged magnetic ball or even the green logo aramith magnetic ball, I would definitely shoot well below my ability with a regular cue ball. I agree--they don't play right.

Good observation!!

KMRUNOUT