Alias or Real People ?

[SUPERSTAR]

I think if some people were to have internet guys stalk them like i have, i'd be willing to bet that almost immediately, some people would be changing their opinion if they could start all over again and keep their ID under wraps.

I can't even sign in to watch a stream without getting a tidal wave of PM's that are nothing but insults or death threats.

So for me, I will continue to remain anonymous.

And for people that think that's some sort of joke because they themselves haven't experienced it, there is nothing i can say that would change your mind, i would just hope that you never experience it yourselves.
Since i've already had to deal with people before, there is no reason to think i won't have to deal with them in the future.
But there is no way i'm going to voluntarily make it easy for them to make my life difficult.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I never use my real name on the internet. Here's why:

About 10 years ago, I unwittingly helped a company fold and lose hundreds of millions. Without going into details, a bunch of computer enthusiasts and I wrote a piece of free software that helped destroy their entire business model. It was one of these companies without any viability that was created to cash in on the internet craze of the time. It collapsed when the internet bubble burst, but we accelerated their fate.

The affair made a quite a bit of noise at the time, and a crafty journalist from a rather well known rag called me over the phone, claiming to be a law student interested in the case, and managed to get a quote from me saying the company's execs have no case against us, that their company will fail anyway, and that they should shut up. The quote was printed in the rag, and also in the online version on their website.

Since then, when you look up my real name on the internet, the idea you get of me is that I'm a reckless computer hacker who made a lot of investors lose a lot of money. I since changed line of work, I no longer work in computing, but each and every time I go for a job interview, I always - and I mean ALWAYS - get that line: "sooo, you look like the ideal candidate, but... well... how to say this... there's a little thing I'd like to clear up, because frankly you worry me as a business owner. Could you tell me what happened in 2000 with this company?". So I have to explain, in detail, how things happened, why I am not the root cause of their failure, and it's always very embarrassing. It's been 10 years and it still comes up.

The moral of this story? the internet never forgets anything. EVER. What you say under your real name WILL come back to haunt you some day. IT WILL. What you say today that seems harmless may reveal things about you you'd rather not say years from now, and you can't know what circumstances will change in your life in advance. When you post anything on the internet, you should consider as private and discreet as shouting in a crowded restaurant.

Don't post on a forum that you slept in and told your boss you were sick. He'll know. If he doesn't, a potential employer will some day.

Don't post that you like bungee jumping, your medical insurance will know and refuse your claim because you didn't disclose dangerous activities to avoid paying premium.

Don't ask on a medical website how to cure gonorrhea, your future wife that you haven't even met yet, that you'll promise you never slept with anybody before her, will find out.

Don't post on AZBilliards that you have a collection of genuine Balabushka cues, someone is bound to figure out your address and break into your home.

Think I'm paranoid? well, take your chances. I know I won't do the same mistake twice.

!!! THE INTERNET NEVER FORGETS !!!

Excellent post.
Another with the wisdom that only personal experience can bring.

 

[lfigueroa]

I do not think it is so much that you or I want to be believed or trusted here or anywhere else in life. My primary way of being is to help others find the truth, not my truth but their truth, whatever that may be. I am very much an empiricist and think that we should have ways to help others find whatever truths we may think there are in life.

The real problem is the idea that people who hide behind a pseudonymn find themselves like members of other groups such as the Klan. I am not saying they are no different than Klan members, I am saying that the problems are similar.

Research has been very consistent. When people are anonymous they are less empathic and tend to be more vicious. The use of a pseudonymn encourages the person to be less caring and to be less responsible. Therein lies the problem.

However, it is also true that if I take the time to write it is because I think I have something to say and I would like you to at least consider that it was written with some degree of integrity. So, in a sense, yes, I too seek respectability whether I admit it to myself or not. Else why even be here?

I'd like to see more names (but know that is unlikely to happen). In my experience, it is always the anonymous guys who run their mouths the most and act like they have big brass ones. Names go a long way towards reducing that kind of behavior from the poster who is otherwise a pussy... cat.

To the folks that are concerned about the safety of posting their name on a forum, I say: naaaahhhh. You don't have to worry about anything. Hell, I guess in all the days I've been posting on the internet I've pissed off more than my fair share of people. But I've only had one guy send me an email and threaten to shoot me.

And he's dead now

Lou Figueroa

 

[ribdoner]

I never use my real name on the internet. Here's why:

About 10 years ago, I unwittingly helped a company fold and lose hundreds of millions. Without going into details, a bunch of computer enthusiasts and I wrote a piece of free software that helped destroy their entire business model. It was one of these companies without any viability that was created to cash in on the internet craze of the time. It collapsed when the internet bubble burst, but we accelerated their fate.

The affair made a quite a bit of noise at the time, and a crafty journalist from a rather well known rag called me over the phone, claiming to be a law student interested in the case, and managed to get a quote from me saying the company's execs have no case against us, that their company will fail anyway, and that they should shut up. The quote was printed in the rag, and also in the online version on their website.

Since then, when you look up my real name on the internet, the idea you get of me is that I'm a reckless computer hacker who made a lot of investors lose a lot of money. I since changed line of work, I no longer work in computing, but each and every time I go for a job interview, I always - and I mean ALWAYS - get that line: "sooo, you look like the ideal candidate, but... well... how to say this... there's a little thing I'd like to clear up, because frankly you worry me as a business owner. Could you tell me what happened in 2000 with this company?". So I have to explain, in detail, how things happened, why I am not the root cause of their failure, and it's always very embarrassing. It's been 10 years and it still comes up.

The moral of this story? the internet never forgets anything. EVER. What you say under your real name WILL come back to haunt you some day. IT WILL. What you say today that seems harmless may reveal things about you you'd rather not say years from now, and you can't know what circumstances will change in your life in advance. When you post anything on the internet, you should consider as private and discreet as shouting in a crowded restaurant.

Don't post on a forum that you slept in and told your boss you were sick. He'll know. If he doesn't, a potential employer will some day.

Don't post that you like bungee jumping, your medical insurance will know and refuse your claim because you didn't disclose dangerous activities to avoid paying premium.

Don't ask on a medical website how to cure gonorrhea, your future wife that you haven't even met yet, that you'll promise you never slept with anybody before her, will find out.

Don't post on AZBilliards that you have a collection of genuine Balabushka cues, someone is bound to figure out your address and break into your home.

Think I'm paranoid? well, take your chances. I know I won't do the same mistake twice.

!!! THE INTERNET NEVER FORGETS !!!

Many know my ID, but, this is why it's not public knowledge.

If "something" were to go down i prefer the potential suspects to number in the thousands and NOT billions.

 

[blah blah]

I do not think it is so much that you or I want to be believed or trusted here or anywhere else in life. My primary way of being is to help others find the truth, not my truth but their truth, whatever that may be. I am very much an empiricist and think that we should have ways to help others find whatever truths we may think there are in life.

The real problem is the idea that people who hide behind a pseudonymn find themselves like members of other groups such as the Klan. I am not saying they are no different than Klan members, I am saying that the problems are similar.

Research has been very consistent. When people are anonymous they are less empathic and tend to be more vicious. The use of a pseudonymn encourages the person to be less caring and to be less responsible. Therein lies the problem.

However, it is also true that if I take the time to write it is because I think I have something to say and I would like you to at least consider that it was written with some degree of integrity. So, in a sense, yes, I too seek respectability whether I admit it to myself or not. Else why even be here?

While you raise some interesting points, I beg to disagree with you, and I think you make some leaps of logic. First, you say:

“The real problem is the idea that people who hide behind a pseudonymn [sic] find themselves like members of other groups such as the Klan.”

People, whether behind a pseudonym or not, will create associations with other like members. That’s why I’m such good buds with a monkey like NewStroke- we share the same sense of humor and attitudes about pool. If I were a Klansman, NewStroke and I may not be online friends, but I would have others. My real name does not factor into my associations- my words and theirs do.

You also say:
“Research has been very consistent. When people are anonymous they are less empathic and tend to be more vicious. The use of a pseudonymn [sic] encourages the person to be less caring and to be less responsible. Therein lies the problem.”

I think you would make a good point, here, IF AZB were a vacuum; but it's not: we’re in a community. Time and memory reduces anonymity- anything that was said by anyone here can easily be recalled and reposted. With history, rep points, and the general groupthink that goes with an online community, one’s reputation and soundness actually becomes an identity that matters.

Second, there is no true anonymity: pool players know pool players. From our posts we can tell who plays pool, who thinks, and at what level of both; and from location we can figure out if we already "really" know these people.

Finally, there is an ever- present opportunity to meet each other in real life- posts about traveling to different places, AZB rooms at various events, and PMs about local interests keep real people real. That’s not anonymity- that’s a community. See the bday wishes, the contributions to the sick and dead, the seeking person’s of interest and the damaging of businesses and reputations. It’s a community. And a community has viciousness, but that's people, not anonimity.

(Think of the last major catfight on here- it wasn't caused by anonymity, it was caused by words, real life interactions, and bragging without the means to back it up. No identities were hidden because we all knew exactly who was who.)

We have shared interests and real people at AZB- THAT’S why we’re all here: the laughs, sorrows, joys, and shared interests of a community.

But I don’t need to pay money or personal security to be a part of this community. I need only to think, laugh, support others, and argue my positions. Charge anything more (my name, credit card, personal identity, kids), and I’m out.

 

[beetle]

Fastolfe makes a good point that I will have to give serious consideration. That is indeed the best answer I have heard for why one should remain anonymous.

Hmmmmm

There is a real dilemma here.

But how could you give this "serious consideration" when you stated before that "if anyone needs to remain anonymous, for whatever reason, I think you should know that the rest of us assign zero or less credibility to what you say. I may read your comments and even go see the web site you recommend but I do not believe much of anything you say."

And, furthermore, are the examples Fastolfe mentioned really this eye opening to you, after this topic has been brought up time and time again?

 

[ribdoner]

While you raise some interesting points, I beg to disagree with you, and I think you make some leaps of logic. First, you say:

“The real problem is the idea that people who hide behind a pseudonymn [sic] find themselves like members of other groups such as the Klan.”

People, whether behind a pseudonym or not, will create associations with other like members. That’s why I’m such good buds with a monkey like NewStroke- we share the same sense of humor and attitudes about pool. If I were a Klansman, NewStroke and I may not be online friends, but I would have others. My real name does not factor into my associations- my words and theirs do.

You also say:
“Research has been very consistent. When people are anonymous they are less empathic and tend to be more vicious. The use of a pseudonymn [sic] encourages the person to be less caring and to be less responsible. Therein lies the problem.”

I think you would make a good point, here, IF AZB were a vacuum; but it's not: we’re in a community. Time and memory reduces anonymity- anything that was said by anyone here can easily be recalled and reposted. With history, rep points, and the general groupthink that goes with an online community, one’s reputation and soundness actually becomes an identity that matters.

Second, there is no true anonymity: pool players know pool players. From our posts we can tell who plays pool, who thinks, and at what level of both; and from location we can figure out if we already "really" know these people.

Finally, there is an ever- present opportunity to meet each other in real life- posts about traveling to different places, AZB rooms at various events, and PMs about local interests keep real people real. That’s not anonymity- that’s a community. See the bday wishes, the contributions to the sick and dead, the seeking person’s of interest and the damaging of businesses and reputations. It’s a community. And a community has viciousness, but that's people, not anonimity.

(Think of the last major catfight on here- it wasn't caused by anonymity, it was caused by words, real life interactions, and bragging without the means to back it up. No identities were hidden because we all knew exactly who was who.)

We have shared interests and real people at AZB- THAT’S why we’re all here: the laughs, sorrows, joys, and shared interests of a community.

But I don’t need to pay money or personal security to be a part of this community. I need only to think, laugh, support others, and argue my positions. Charge anything more (my name, credit card, personal identity, kids), and I’m out.

+++++++++

 

[Bambu]

You walk in a store and give them your credit card. The cop stops and you give him your driver’s license. You probably also give your driver’s license to just about anyone else who wants two pieces of ID. Your employer probably knows more about you than your mother. You register for classes and give your ID, credit card and where you can be reached through your best friend. You also give all this info, including your nearest relative’s phone number to just about anyone from whom you want credit. All of your current and past love relationships know even more about you (including your sexual preferences) and can divulge it if they are ticked at you. Have you ever stopped to think how many times you give someone your social security number (though it is illegal for them to even ask) and on top of that the damn thing is right there on your driver’s license.

In a restaurant you give the waiter (who just got paroled) your credit card and he walks into the back room to swipe it once (or twice). You place all your bills with account information in your trash and place it on the curb where it is now “public.”

On top of all that you passwords are probably a variant of your birthday, your dog’s name, or your girl friend’s middle name – did you think we did not know that you are too lazy to try for better encryption?

Did you really think that your teachers, coaches, buddies at the hall and all of your other “friends” and acquaintances won’t tell me all that I want to know about you?

And most telling of all, some guy in a bar asks your name and address and you give it to him, your business card too if you have one. So what is the big deal?

I have helped put more people in prison than most people on this forum have had birthdays and I am easy to contact or find. The “I must remain anonymous” is nothing more than a way to hide and snipe. Personally, I discount by at least 75% anything said by anyone who hides his ID. I bet I am not the only one who sees it this way.

All the comments in the world won’t change that. If someone needs to hide behind a pseudonym my first reaction is, “Why is he doing that?” There must be some reason. The internet is like a huge telephone book. If you want to find someone, look them up. What you get you may or may not like. You probably use the same handle here that you use other places and you have said more here and other places that would all lead to you.

So if anyone needs to remain anonymous, for whatever reason, I think you should know that the rest of us assign zero or less credibility to what you say. I may read your comments and even go see the web site you recommend but I do not believe much of anything you say.

More damage has been done to the use of internet forums through the use of pseudonyms than any other single action, excepting of course identity theft. In more than 10 years on the net I have had two attempts at identity theft both were stopped within a week and one person is probably serving time. Nobody has ever come looking for me and that includes well over 1,000 people I have helped place in prison (not jail but prison).
I know that my comments will not change anyone’s mind but it is something to think about. Why do you need to hide? You can run but you can’t hide in the rest of your life.

Just imagine how boring any forum would be with regular names only. :boring2: It would be downright communist! Handleism even! (Discrimination based on ones handle, lol.) I dont know what gives you the idea that anyone who doesnt use their real name as a handle, is hiding. Thats what a screen name is, a handle....nothing more.

If anyone asked me who I was, I'd have no problem telling them my real name. I have no reason to hide, but I give my info out whenever I need to, or whenever asked. Nothing personal, but I never volunteer it without a reason. To automatically discount content because of someones handle, is ridiculous. What if a seemingly real name appeared? What are you gonna do, run a credit check on everyone on the forum? How are you gonna know if the listed names were real? Do we have to be in the telephone book, too?

I still appreciate your opinion, Joe. Its always good to know how others feel, regardless of whether I agree or not. I hope you feel the same way. You once posted a great drill...the wagon wheel drill. And I thank you for that, its one of the best I have ever seen. At the time though, who you were, really didnt matter to me. I knew you liked pool, and that was good enough for me to at least have an open mind to what you posted. Did I confirm that you were a real person before I tried the drill? Am I sorry I didnt check your credentials first, before trying the drill? Of course not, didnt matter. You coulda been a sharp 10 year old, wouldnt bother me. Its the content of the post that matters, not who the actual poster is.

 

[blah blah]

Just imagine how boring any forum would be with regular names only. :boring2: It would be downright communist! Handleism even! (Discrimination based on ones handle, lol.) I dont know what gives you the idea that anyone who doesnt use their real name as a handle, is hiding. Thats what a screen name is, a handle....nothing more.

If anyone asked me who I was, I'd have no problem telling them my real name. I have no reason to hide, but I give my info out whenever I need to, or whenever asked. Nothing personal, but I never volunteer it without a reason. To automatically discount content because of someones handle, is ridiculous. What if a seemingly real name appeared? What are you gonna do, run a credit check on everyone on the forum? How are you gonna know if the listed names were real? Do we have to be in the telephone book, too?

I still appreciate your opinion, Joe. Its always good to know how others feel, regardless of whether I agree or not. I hope you feel the same way. You once posted a great drill...the wagon wheel drill. And I thank you for that, its one of the best I have ever seen. At the time though, who you were, really didnt matter to me. I knew you liked pool, and that was good enough for me to at least have an open mind to what you posted. Did I confirm that you were a real person before I tried the drill? Am I sorry I didnt check your credentials first, before trying the drill? Of course not, didnt matter. You coulda been a sharp 10 year old, wouldnt bother me. Its the content of the post that matters, not who the actual poster is.

Nice post. I am reposting it to say that Joe, I appreciate and value your thoughts, I just don't agree. Sometimes my posts ARE a bit tart or sarcastic, but conveying positions with accurate flavor is just another problem with online discussions.

 

[JoeW]

There are differences but there are also similarities. Klansmen knew each other, hung out together and of course did some atrocious things. I suspect that their viciousness under the hood of a Klansman leaked into their relationships outside the Klan. I also think that they later said and did things outside the Klan that they would not have done had they not been Klansman.

I would hope that no one thinks I am implying that use of a pseudonym is akin to be a Klansman. There are similar problems though they are not nearly as horrible.

The idea that the Net never forgets is a problem I had not considered seriously. At my age (66) I am not concerned with this aspect of life. I can see where the potential problems that stem from this idea could be considerable. Perhaps it becomes an individual decision but a difficult one because we don’t know what the future will bring.

The problem becomes how to be anonymous and responsible. Other than personal values I have no idea how to do that.

The problem with the vacuum idea is that the anonymous mob is usually very public and anything but a vacuum. Some atrocities have been perpetrated by communities of like minded people who were anonymous in some situation.

Stanley Milgrim, among others, has shown that we get more vicious in restricted settings where there is little or no responsibility, to the point that many (if not most) people are willing to personally punish another to the point where the person would die. See Milgrim’s work on Obedience to Authority though it is not strictly applicable to the present discussion it is related to the responsibility issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Here is the entry in Wikipedia for the problems with deindividuation. Pseudonyms fall in this category.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

I think of most importance here is how these prior studies and theories apply to the average person. I am not talking about deviants but real people in everyday life.

 

[JoeW]

But how could you give this "serious consideration" when you stated before that "if anyone needs to remain anonymous, for whatever reason, I think you should know that the rest of us assign zero or less credibility to what you say. I may read your comments and even go see the web site you recommend but I do not believe much of anything you say."

And, furthermore, are the examples Fastolfe mentioned really this eye opening to you, after this topic has been brought up time and time again?

Because he makes a good point it does not change my thinking about individual credibility. Sorry, but for me it is true. His comments are not eye opening so much as something I had not given serious consideration. They can be good reasons to remain anonymous but there is a cost to the use of a pseudonym.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Being Anonymous allows some posters to share thoughts and ask questions that normally they would be too shy to do in public.

How often do strangers come up to you in a pool hall and ask you support a pool product? want to know if you want to buy a ticket in a cue raffle? ask what your opinion on the hit of a South West versus a Mali? who is the best instructor? what is the best hitting cue?

How often do pool room players jump in a conversation and offer an opinion or just tell you your opinion is very strange or stupid?

Being Anonymous allows posters to comment, ask and respond negatively with out much chance of punishment (within reason... short of being banned for breaking forum rules).

What I have personally found interesting is that there are more players and posters that agree with my fashion of thinking than I would have expected.

 

[Holly]

Holly is my alias oh wait...

 

[8ballEinstein]

No, not the Milgram experiment!

Stanley Milgrim, among others, has shown that we get more vicious in restricted settings where there is little or no responsibility, to the point that many (if not most) people are willing to personally punish another to the point where the person would die. See Milgrim’s work on Obedience to Authority though it is not strictly applicable to the present discussion it is related to the responsibility issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Here is the entry in Wikipedia for the problems with deindividuation. Pseudonyms fall in this category.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

I think of most importance here is how these prior studies and theories apply to the average person. I am not talking about deviants but real people in everyday life.

I don't see how you can tie the Milgram Experiment to those that use a nickname on here. As you mentioned, it was about obedience to authority. How is that connected?

 

[JoeW]

I too read and comment on posts made by anonymous members. When it is pool related I do not care where the source comes from. I am going to check it out in my own way as I think that all of us should. Depending on whose post it is some I have to check more thoroughly than others. This is a recreational forum and nothing that is all that important takes place here so source IDs are not all that important for my game but they do make the world a better place in my thinking.

The problem that we all need to be aware of, is the idea that being anonymous is a potential problem for anyone that can lead the person to ways of thinking and acting that are not good for the person. Another problem is that it comes with a price.

If, as some one implied, I should have known better, what can I say. I can be as stupid as the next guy and one of the reasons for being here (for me) is to learn from others. My blind spots in life are just as good as yours.

 

[JoeW]

I don't see how you can tie the Milgram Experiment to those that use a nickname on here. As you mentioned, it was about obedience to authority. How is that connected?

It is about obedience and relinquishing responsibility. Milgrim and Zimbardo among others demonstrate that it is not dificult to absolve ourselves of responsibility.

 

[Mowem down]

When I first started looking on this sight i always though t he little names were just for fun, it wasnt untill after I really started reading threads that I found out therewas a reason people hid thir names.

For the most part it shouldnt really matter if your real name is on here, I doubt there is anybody on here that wold drive 2000 miles with a diaper on to cause harm. But there is also times were the secret is nice. Lets say your a member of a certain league and you voice some complaints it might be best they dont know who you are. Aint that right Mark. LOL...

 

[ShootingArts]

I don't know your last name

Because he makes a good point it does not change my thinking about individual credibility. Sorry, but for me it is true. His comments are not eye opening so much as something I had not given serious consideration. They can be good reasons to remain anonymous but there is a cost to the use of a pseudonym.

Joe,

As somebody else has already mentioned in this thread, JoeW isn't your name. Most people reading your posts do not dig further to determine who JoeW is.

Do you think that posting as JoeW harms the credibility of your posts or your reputation as a solid and intelligent poster?

I don't remember your last name. I've read it maybe a year or so ago but to me and hundreds of other readers you are just JoeW. However "JoeW" is what you have made it and all you need to be known by here. When I see that "JoeW" has posted something I consider if I want to read that post based on all the other posts that "JoeW" has written and I give them the weight "JoeW" has earned with his prior quality posts. If everyone else felt as you did then your posts would carry little weight because you don't use your full name.

Humboldt T. Rockefeller III (no, that isn't my real name but who would know?)

 

[blah blah]

(edited for brevity)

...The problem becomes how to be anonymous and responsible. Other than personal values I have no idea how to do that.

The problem with the vacuum idea is that the anonymous mob is usually very public and anything but a vacuum. Some atrocities have been perpetrated by communities of like minded people who were anonymous in some situation.

Stanley Milgrim, among others, has shown that we get more vicious in restricted settings where there is little or no responsibility, to the point that many (if not most) people are willing to personally punish another to the point where the person would die. See Milgrim’s work on Obedience to Authority though it is not strictly applicable to the present discussion it is related to the responsibility issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Here is the entry in Wikipedia for the problems with deindividuation. Pseudonyms fall in this category.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

I think of most importance here is how these prior studies and theories apply to the average person. I am not talking about deviants but real people in everyday life.

Great, classic examples- especially with the add'l references of the Milgram effect (including the Stanford Prison Experiment, My Lai, and Abu Ghraib). I see where you're going, and it's really a great concern...

Small point: I would argue that in almost all of the examples there are the confounding variables of power structure, heirarchical roles, and following orders that separate online communities from most of these listed situations...

In Social Psych we had an example of the five teenagers who raped a jogger: individually none of them would have performed the act, but with the diminished responsibility of a group, all were willing to take part. I don't remember what the lesson was called, just that it's a supporting example for your position that doesn't include an inherent power structure.

Second point: Yes, there is some groupthink here at AZB, but each person is also fairly autonomous, separated by distance and worried about possible future quotes. People may follow some "leaders" here, but allegiances are weak and temporary. Perhaps the issue of time factors into this, too: it would be interesting to see some of the biggest AZB catfights, look at the times between all postings and the times between each individuals' postings, and see if either or both corresponds to shifts in group perspective.

but my coup de grace: you still don't have my full name, yet you're paying attention to my thoughts... uh- oh, there's that tartness coming in! : )

 

[8ballEinstein]

It is about obedience and relinquishing responsibility. Milgrim and Zimbardo among others demonstrate that it is not dificult to absolve ourselves of responsibility.

Yes, in the Milgram case, it was through an authority figure. I don't remember what Phillip Zimbardo demonstrated. My psychology studies were from a long time ago.