*Player of the decade*

[Marvel]

Marcus' efforts to weld his choice Mika as the "only correct choice and if you don't pick Mika, you are uninformed" is having the wrong effect -- he's starting to p*ss people off.

Sean,


The more I'm trying to find "The Spirit" from the posts of yours, the more I can see your ignorance. Or is that already lying? You state what you state above, and in truth, I have looked everything from the facts, and found out that Efren is more and more there for the POTD. In almost all my posts, I have said this, that Efren could be the one, depending how you look at it. Mika, if you take the Official Majors. Efren, if you take everything.

So how ignorant is the statement of yours there above? Or is it trolling already?

Marcus did call a couple posters on here -- most notably Jay Helfert -- uninformed, so your technicality defense (of disconnecting the opinion from the person who made it) is a wash.

Don't try to take your Guru Jay here to save you. I winked at him, that "again his 'facts' are incorrect", as I've so many times noticed, when he's in the booth or something. Jay is a great contributor to the sport, but I don't think he's a god who cannot be wrong. Actually, more often than not, his 'facts' in his commentary, are incorrect. At least what it came to WTBC and Mosconi Cup this year (almost all, if not all, were incorrect, from what I heard). Sorry to say, but that's the truth. If it hurts, I'm sorry again.


Sean, I don't know if you are man enough to clear the above lies and apologize, but certainly you'll be reading these answers.


No matter, I'll forgive you anyway, I just got p!ssed, out of your ignorant and stupid statements.


-Markus

 

[corvette1340]

I just went over Johnny's stats too and it looks like he had 48 cashes during the decade of $5,000 or more so his name being included isn't a stretch either and you aren't even including his name, then again, neither was I, lol.

 

[Marvel]

Cashes for $5,000 or more over the last decadeas listed on AZB:

Efren - 53 cashes - a lot more than I thought and it looks like he dominated the early part of the decade in that 35 of these were from 2000-2004.

Ralf - 40 cashes - This also does not take into account all of the tourneys that Roy mentioned where he finished 1-4 that aren't listed on AZB.

Mika - 40 cashes - 21 of these from 2006 - 2009


Given these numbers and the performance in the decade as a whole I would still give the nod to Ralf.

If it were the early part of the decade then Efren, no question.

The latter part of the decade then Mika, no question.

Ok, at least your trying to be objective, than just trolling.

*Respect* for that.

If you could still state, that why would you give it still to Ralf instead of Efren, if he's way below, and why wouldn't you somehow proggressively (sp?) give more and more weigh, the higher "the bar" is raised. Meaning, that if Ralf is equal with Mika and below Efren on 5K tourneys, and the higher the bar you raise, the lower he drops?
Of course, in the end, eventhough 5K tourneys would be counted, the MAJORS, and especially the wins in them, should give perspective. Or what would the Top pros in other sports say? Tiger & Jack? Roger & Pete?

In the end I counted it from many many different ways, not only one, eventhough you claimed so.

 

[Marvel]

I just went over Johnny's stats too and it looks like he had 48 cashes during the decade of $5,000 or more so his name being included isn't a stretch either and you aren't even including his name, then again, neither was I, lol.

One word: Majors

 

[Holly]

No disrespect folks, but why not an accompanying women's list. BD is running their poll and they have both...

 

[corvette1340]

The only problem with giving weight to just a few "majors" is that in pool the majors aren't well defined. There are so many tourneys that are considered big tourneys around the world and most of them don't have the best fields possible simply because it's impossible for all players to travel to all of them.

Most of the Americans never compete overseas and most of the Asian players never compete here aside from a few pinoys here and there. Even the US Open, which has a great field, doesn't have a big host of international players. Not to the degree that you would think it would.

The point I'm trying to make is that Ralf travels the globe more than any player and every time he tees it up he's going against the toughest fields available. Mika primarily plays here aside from a few overseas tourneys, much like the top Americans (ie. Johnny, Shane, Corey).

If the pool majors were as well defined as golf or tennis (Masters, US Open, British Open, PGA Championship / Austrailian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open) then I'd be more inclined to agree with you but just labeling 2 tourneys or even 4 that YOU yourself consider the biggest is not a justifiable definition of the pool majors. A lot of people consider DCC the toughest to win because of the short races and sheer number that participates.

 

[corvette1340]

No disrespect folks, but why not an accompanying women's list. BD is running their poll and they have both...

Do women even play pool?

 

[ShootingArts]

Easy

No disrespect folks, but why not an accompanying women's list. BD is running their poll and they have both...

We men are no dummies! We don't want too close of a comparison. Side by side is risky, an open poll would be far worse. Allison runs away with it if it is player of the decade as to who dominated her competitors. If it is pool person of the decade then despite her relatively poor performance on the table it is probably between Jeanette Lee and Allison as to who has represented pool best. None of the men have been as dominant as Allison or have done as much for the image of pool as either of these two ladies.

Y'all just go back to your li'l girlie tournaments and leave us men to our delusions! :grin: :grin: :grin:

Hu

 

[Marvel]

The only problem with giving weight to just a few "majors" is that in pool the majors aren't well defined. There are so many tourneys that are considered big tourneys around the world and most of them don't have the best fields possible simply because it's impossible for all players to travel to all of them.

Most of the Americans never compete overseas and most of the Asian players never compete here aside from a few pinoys here and there. Even the US Open, which has a great field, doesn't have a big host of international players. Not to the degree that you would think it would.

The point I'm trying to make is that Ralf travels the globe more than any player and every time he tees it up he's going against the toughest fields available. Mika primarily plays here aside from a few overseas tourneys, much like the top Americans (ie. Johnny, Shane, Corey).

If the pool majors were as well defined as golf or tennis (Masters, US Open, British Open, PGA Championship / Austrailian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open) then I'd be more inclined to agree with you but just labeling 2 tourneys or even 4 that YOU yourself consider the biggest is not a justifiable definition of the pool majors. A lot of people consider DCC the toughest to win because of the short races and sheer number that participates.

I agree that it would be easier to see if the Majors would be well determined, but when they are not, then the prize money, the size of the field, and the official prestigiousness (sp?) should be counted. (Actually, WPA has it's system nowadays, and I have included that in my view point - but not been blinded about it, listened your's and other's view points about DCC etc..).
If you read that lenthgy mail of mine, I listed all those. I listed the Official Titles, I listed the Big Paychecks, I listed the High Finishes in those, I listed the Medium Size Majors, I listed the High Finishes in those Medium Size tourneys, I listed everything, but not less than 10K finishes.

I think that was quite wide range to list, and had the perspective needed. Also the results were very cleare, one would think after reading them, there wouldn't anymore be discussion about this issue.
Every rational person should understand, that when discussing about "The Best of the Decade", that winning big tournaments, is more prestigious, than winning many small ones.


And btw, even Jay once earlier admitted (couple of years ago) that yes, WPA 9-Ball WC and the US.Open 9-Ball, are the only True Majors, Majors above others.

No matter if I included WC 8-Ball, IPT, DCC, all the other 10K+ tourneys, the results were the same.

 

[corvette1340]

you have expressed your opinions and reasoning behind them as have I. Taking all the factors listed on the AZ money list and those that are not I still feel that Ralf is the most consistent of the 3 throughout the entire decade.

Like I said, early decade Efren wins, latter decade Mika wins.

Until there is a definitive system that clearly defines the majors then I'll reserve judgement as to the weight each tourny gets in my mind and you can do the same, as can anyone else with an opinion.

Ralf 85
Mika 40

 

[eezbank]

So, I'm thinking about letting the poll run it's course over the weekend. Then starting another one with only the top three or four from the poll results.

Holly makes a very good point that this is the "player" of the decade and Allison and Karen have earned a place on this poll as well. So, before I post another I'd like some input on what everyone thinks. Or even if you think we shouldn't do another poll.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[sfleinen]

Markus:

Ok, you're getting PERSONAL now. It's obvious by the INCREDIBLE amount of time you're spending in this thread alone, that you WANT back-and-forth discourse about this POTD topic. You're responding to every single post here, even if the original poster later engaged in a nice follow-up with someone else that helped clarify things (e.g. Jarno and myself). Yet, you're even cherry-picking particular posts that happened earlier (in some cases, posts you had already replied to!), and responding to them, getting personal, when I myself never got personal with you, until my "how old are you?" question after you tried to troll *me* to engage you again.

My purpose here with my posts was simple -- just to remind people not to get caught up in all the hoopla about specific spikes in one's pool playing career (e.g. Mika's gangbusters year-and-a-half), and rather to look at a player's consistency throughout the decade. I stated my case, replied to a couple rebuttals, and that was the end of it for me. I do not care for continuous going back-and-forth "trying to convince the other person" or "trying to defend my viewpoint when other people do not agree." I have other things in my life, much more important things to put so much effort into as you are putting into this very unimportant poll and discourse.

One doesn't find "the spirit" of a post by analyzing/scrutinizing every single word. The spirit of the post is just that -- the general "sense" of the post, sometimes unwritten, when reading it. You didn't get it, and are responding to minutiae, taking things way out of context, and even taking things personally. Don't you remember my warm welcoming you to these boards? What happened to that? Now you've singled me out for attack just because I don't agree with your tactic of going back and forth, scrutinizing details?

I find it hilarious that you're now calling *me* (or hinting at me being) stupid, ignorant, a troll, and a liar. Yes, me. Anyone with experience on these boards will tell you that I'm one of the good guys. I'm one of the warmest, most cordial and respectful posters here. In most cases, I try to make people laugh. For you to call me stupid, ignorant, a troll, and a liar (or even to hint at those things) just shows how inexperienced you are. And let's not get into a silly technicality analysis of "but I didn't use those exact words." By inference and innuendo, you did.

Markus, it's obvious you're very young. While I applaud your energy and passion for what you believe in (wasn't it you who stated you were staying home with the flu and had nothing else to do?), please keep in mind that other folks have beliefs and opinions as well, they share them, and they're entitled to them, even if they disagree with your own. And also keep in mind not all of us have the time you do -- responding to every single post in a thread (in some cases, re-responding to something that you already responded to). Also keep in mind some of us know when to quit, when something is not worth it. This thread, for me, reached that stage long ago. I will not apologize to you, because I have nothing to apologize for. So stop asking. The only reason why I'm replying to you here, even after I said an earlier post would be my last, is to remind you what my purpose was here, and why you're wrong to spend so much time singling those out that have a different opinion, with their own facts, to respond to. Is this topic really that important to you??

You know what's funny, we have an expression in English of "the pot calling the kettle black." I think that expression fits very nicely here with your latest reply below. I'll leave it at that.

My initial introduction to you still stands as far as welcoming you to these boards. Just do your research first before calling people names (or even hinting / making innuendos about those names). You'll find when you look at that person's history, you may be, as we say in the U.S., "putting your foot in your mouth."

That really is it for me on this topic, now. If you still want to dissect every single word of my post (or any other post on this topic), go right ahead. If this is the way you like to spend your time, go right ahead and have fun.

Respectfully,
-Sean

Sean,


The more I'm trying to find "The Spirit" from the posts of yours, the more I can see your ignorance. Or is that already lying? You state what you state above, and in truth, I have looked everything from the facts, and found out that Efren is more and more there for the POTD. In almost all my posts, I have said this, that Efren could be the one, depending how you look at it. Mika, if you take the Official Majors. Efren, if you take everything.

So how ignorant is the statement of yours there above? Or is it trolling already?





Don't try to take your Guru Jay here to save you. I winked at him, that "again his 'facts' are incorrect", as I've so many times noticed, when he's in the booth or something. Jay is a great contributor to the sport, but I don't think he's a god who cannot be wrong. Actually, more often than not, his 'facts' in his commentary, are incorrect. At least what it came to WTBC and Mosconi Cup this year (almost all, if not all, were incorrect, from what I heard). Sorry to say, but that's the truth. If it hurts, I'm sorry again.


Sean, I don't know if you are man enough to clear the above lies and apologize, but certainly you'll be reading these answers.


No matter, I'll forgive you anyway, I just got p!ssed, out of your ignorant and stupid statements.


-Markus

 

[DRW]

Ralf

My vote goes to Ralf S. Player of the year has to go to Mika.

 

[Marvel]

you have expressed your opinions and reasoning behind them as have I. Taking all the factors listed on the AZ money list and those that are not I still feel that Ralf is the most consistent of the 3 throughout the entire decade.

If you forget your feelings (which most likely are based partly for you being present in DCC), and count once again, you'll see Ralf is the least consistent of those three.
Only if you compare their individual consistency, then Ralf beats Efren, but Mika beats Ralf. If you compare their consistency during the Decade, yearly, to the Top of the World, then Efren wins, Mika is second.
One year (2008), when Efren was digging his retirement ideas and boycotting the Majors, he has a poor year. This year, if you add the 30K from WCOP, and eventhough he hasn't played in the 4 biggest tournaments of the year (about 1 Million in prize money, where Mika has scored more than 140K, and which all Ralf has participated), Efren is still placing as high as 6th with his 53K.

Like I said, early decade Efren wins, latter decade Mika wins.

Yeah, and through out the Decade, however you look at it, they both win Ralf.

Until there is a definitive system that clearly defines the majors then I'll reserve judgement as to the weight each tourny gets in my mind and you can do the same, as can anyone else with an opinion.

Ok. But ask any Top Pros, which are their biggest goals (or which were), they'll say World Championship and US.Open (and they are not talking about 8-Ball).
None of them will answer DCC 9-Ball, not even "to win DCC 9-Ball thrice".

IPT was special case, but that favors Efren, then Mika.

Ralf 85
Mika 40

Yes, the results are telling about something. Being careful no to insult the sensitive ones, I'm stating, that most likely Ralf's Professionalism, good antics, likeability, overall consistent performance and the fact that Efren is more or less in the retiring part of his career, voters here feel, that Souquet has been the best.

Also, I'm pretty much sure that the fact, that many of the AZ'ers here have DCC as their pilgrimage, might be big factor in the voting. Partly US.Open also, as readers here see him in the top 16 so consistently. Efren for example has skipped most of the last years in US.Open and they have seen him fading in DCC.

Someone was also suggesting, that for example I'm seeing Mika because of my short memory, but actually I'm surprised how short memory people here have, as for example Efren's performance in DCC still outshines Ralf's clearly.

It's a big thing to win DCC 9-Ball, all those three actually have done that, but I cannot say DCC 9-Ball is Major.
What I could say, is that winning the Master of the Table, equals a Major. Efren has probably won it like 4-5 times, and one year he won the 9b, the 1-hole, and placed 13th at Banks. The same year, he also killed everyone in the money matches, small or big.
Efren is clearly the King of DCC.

Ralf 85
Mika 40

And yes, I still don't care of the results in this poll, but with some easy Math, I can see that the earlier 3:1 has diminished to almost 2:1. That's a big difference, maybe some people here still read the posts, base their opinions in facts and not in feelings

 

[corvette1340]

I've never been to DCC. When you take a poll of all the players around the world and ask them which tourneys they consider to be the biggest then get back to me.

Please include Yang, Wu, and the other 100's of players that have never even played in the US Open. Also include all of the Americans that have never played in any of the world championships that are held in countries overseas, due to logistics.

I wish there was a way to see exactly which tourneys ALL 3 OF THEM have competed in over the last decade and see where they placed in THOSE tourneys.

Also,

Ralf 86
Mika 40

Margin no longer 3 to 1 as it was at 65 to 22, but still widening nonetheless.

 

[Marvel]

Markus:

Ok, you're getting PERSONAL now. It's obvious by the INCREDIBLE amount of time you're spending in this thread alone, that you WANT back-and-forth discourse about this POTD topic. You're responding to every single post here, even if the original poster later engaged in a nice follow-up with someone else that helped clarify things (e.g. Jarno and myself). Yet, you're even cherry-picking particular posts that happened earlier (in some cases, posts you had already replied to!), and responding to them, getting personal, when I myself never got personal with you, until my "how old are you?" question after you tried to troll *me* to engage you again.

My purpose here with my posts was simple -- just to remind people not to get caught up in all the hoopla about specific spikes in one's pool playing career (e.g. Mika's gangbusters year-and-a-half), and rather to look at a player's consistency throughout the decade. I stated my case, replied to a couple rebuttals, and that was the end of it for me. I do not care for continuous going back-and-forth "trying to convince the other person" or "trying to defend my viewpoint when other people do not agree." I have other things in my life, much more important things to put so much effort into as you are putting into this very unimportant poll and discourse.

One doesn't find "the spirit" of a post by analyzing/scrutinizing every single word. The spirit of the post is just that -- the general "sense" of the post, sometimes unwritten, when reading it. You didn't get it, and are responding to minutiae, taking things way out of context, and even taking things personally. Don't you remember my warm welcoming you to these boards? What happened to that? Now you've singled me out for attack just because I don't agree with your tactic of going back and forth, scrutinizing details?

I find it hilarious that you're now calling *me* (or hinting at me being) stupid, ignorant, a troll, and a liar. Yes, me. Anyone with experience on these boards will tell you that I'm one of the good guys. I'm one of the warmest, most cordial and respectful posters here. In most cases, I try to make people laugh. For you to call me stupid, ignorant, a troll, and a liar (or even to hint at those things) just shows how inexperienced you are. And let's not get into a silly technicality analysis of "but I didn't use those exact words." By inference and innuendo, you did.

Markus, it's obvious you're very young. While I applaud your energy and passion for what you believe in (wasn't it you who stated you were staying home with the flu and had nothing else to do?), please keep in mind that other folks have beliefs and opinions as well, they share them, and they're entitled to them, even if they disagree with your own. And also keep in mind not all of us have the time you do -- responding to every single post in a thread (in some cases, re-responding to something that you already responded to). Also keep in mind some of us know when to quit, when something is not worth it. This thread, for me, reached that stage long ago. I will not apologize to you, because I have nothing to apologize for. So stop asking. The only reason why I'm replying to you here, even after I said an earlier post would be my last, is to remind you what my purpose was here, and why you're wrong to spend so much time singling those out that have a different opinion, with their own facts, to respond to. Is this topic really that important to you??

You know what's funny, we have an expression in English of "the pot calling the kettle black." I think that expression fits very nicely here with your latest reply below. I'll leave it at that.

My initial introduction to you still stands as far as welcoming you to these boards. Just do your research first before calling people names (or even hinting / making innuendos about those names). You'll find when you look at that person's history, you may be, as we say in the U.S., "putting your foot in your mouth."

That really is it for me on this topic, now. If you still want to dissect every single word of my post (or any other post on this topic), go right ahead. If this is the way you like to spend your time, go right ahead and have fun.

Respectfully,
-Sean

So I was the one who got personal first? So I was the one who got emotional first? So I was the one who didn't get the spirit of others message?

Which one of us is the pot and which one the kettle?

 

[Marvel]

Sean,


Did you ever respond anything rational to the facts I stated about the POTD?
Just messages like; "You're obviously wrong, and touting for your friend Mika blindly".

You mis-interpreted me as being emotional in your first post, and I took it gently and was very diplomatic to you. When you started dramatizing, the second day in row, mis-intepreted me very badly, got personal and started twist my words and cause problems, started being insultive, then I reacted.


You didn't even clear the untruths which I could clearly show you're stating in the mail which I quoted and wrote my "emotional" response.

No need to apologize, I'll forgive you anyway, but you cannot escape anymore what you have written.

 

[Marvel]

I've never been to DCC. Ok, my hunch was wrong there.


When you take a poll of all the players around the world and ask them which tourneys they consider to be the biggest then get back to me.

Corvette, I don't know how easily I can prove that, but certainly the WPA 9-B WC (later 10-B) , and US.Open 9-B. This shoudn't be a question. I am aware that Wu and Yang and other Top Taiwanese Pro's are not coming to USA much at all. There's various reasons for that, the language/culture not being the smallest, the travel expences neither.

Maybe as a happening, the DCC can be more interesting to many (than the Open), and worth the travel and costs, but not as a Title. Not even near.



Please include Yang, Wu, and the other 100's of players that have never even played in the US Open. Also include all of the Americans that have never played in any of the world championships that are held in countries overseas, due to logistics.

I wish there was a way to see exactly which tourneys ALL 3 OF THEM have competed in over the last decade and see where they placed in THOSE tourneys.

Also,

Ralf 86
Mika 40

Margin no longer 3 to 1 as it was at 65 to 22, but still widening nonetheless.

________________________________________

 

[corvette1340]

________________________________________

please reference where I said that Derby City was above the US Open.

The point that I'm trying to make (several times) and that you keep missing is that your idea of the end all-be all biggest tourneys is gonna be different from other people's because there is no clear, definitive answer as to which tourneys are pool's majors.

The US Open is certainly a huge tourney, as are the World Championships, BCA Championships, former UPA Championships, DCC, Reno, Eurotour Championships, Phillipines Open, Guiness Tour Championships, Turning Stone, Former IPT Championships, Seminole Championship, etc.., etc.., etc...

Maybe you can start the Markus Juva rating system where YOUR majors are given more weight than others. Of course it still wouldn't carry much weight in everyones eyes as it is still only your opinion among many opinions.

 

[Marvel]

Ralf 86
Mika 40

.

By the way, Vette, why are you missing Efren from those poll updates?

I've included Efren in my posts since the beginning, as he's clearly an option. Later, when all the facts came to the table, maybe even the best one.


But hey, it's getting dark in here, (been already about 9hrs), I have an important tournament tomorrow (not as big as DCC 9-Ball or the World Championships though , but it's still "Red Cup", in my home Pool Hall 'Ritz') and I should get some sleep.

I'll conclude my "mission" with stretchin out my hand:

All those three are close, none of them a bad pick.

If you list straight facts, count things together during 00-09, it's either Efren or Mika (depending how official you want the criteria to be).

If you take your emotions, the more human aspects in the other cup of your scale (which is not a bad idea at all), if you start to feel a little bit , you take the aspects of Professionalism, Sportsmanship, likeability, humility, dedication, then it's either Ralf or Efren.
Efren would still slightly win the humility and likeability, but Ralf would outshine him in the Professionalism and dedication part, also in the Sportsmanship.
So, after feeling a bit, yes, Ralf could be the Player of the Decade.


Is that fine?


Can we all be friends now?


Please?


Peace,





-Markus