Brunswick Ashbee 9ft Pocket Size Problem

R

rjtcobra

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi All,

I am new to this forum, and the proud owner of a new Brunswick Ashbee 9 foot table. My choice behind this table was that it is in the main floor of the house and wanted it to look like furniture as well.


I am a decent player, but no pro by any means. I am 34 and have been playing pool (8 & 9 ball) for the past 20 years and grew up on a 7' bar box that I bought at 13 with my paper route money. I was the youngest kid in the neighborhood with his own table!

Anyhow, I am very happy to have finally been able to get my own 9 footer.

I must say, its a beautiful table, but I think I may have a problem with the pockets. I unfortunately didn't do a lot of research on pocket size, shelf, etc. before buying for two reasons. One, I thought all tables followed a pretty specific standard, which after doing extensive research on this website, they do not. Second, I always wanted a Brunswick, sort of under the perhaps false auspices of it being one of the best.

The other unfortunate issue is that my installer, a brunswick dealer, did not ask me for any specific pocket sizes, etc. before installing.

Anyhow, here are my corner pocket dimensions as it is set up now, which I assume are factory specs, with Centennial cloth:

5 1/8 mouth, 4 1/4 throat (at the end of the cloth where it meets the wood), and a 1 1/2 inch shelf.

The table definitely plays easier than my neighbor's Olhausen 8 footer, which appears to have 4 7/8 pockets with a deeper shelf.

So, with all of this being said, I am wondering what my options are. I don't necesarily want pro spec pockets, but definitely something a little tougher. I was thinking of getting longer rails installed and having the pocket with come in at 4 7/8 with a 4 inch throat.

Unortunately, this would shrink the shelf to 1 3/8. That may make it too short and negate any gain?

Also, can a mechanic buy just enough centennial cloth to do the rails only and uncut brunswick rails or will I be stuck with the full table cloth?

Lastly, who would you recommend I talk to locally in central New Jersey that is a great mechanic to handle such a job (possibly extend the shelf too????)
I am interested in hearing what everyone thinks. I attached a pic of the current pocket.

Thanks Everyone! (btw I'll also post this in the mechanic's forum and i'll do another thread on a Centennial five ball defect I found to see what everyone thinks)

Ryan
 

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This just my personal opinion.

If this table is used by the entire family, for fun. I would go with the 4-3/4 to 4 7-8 pocket. If this table is used primarily by yourself, and you are seeking to improve your play I would go 4-1/4 to 4-1/2.

I don't know if you can extend the shelf on a full slate table. My table is of an antique variety which uses wooden facings on the pockets. I removed the originals and built thicker facings to increase the shelf depth. I also extended my rails to 4-1/4 pockets. With very clean balls it doesn't feel way too tight. If the balls start getting dirty, man it tightens up! Of course this is on fresh Simonis, as the cloth gets older the pockets will feel tighter.
 
You have two options. Either way I would wait until you need to new cloth. You're probably not going to be able to find enough scraps to do the rails. Both options require the rail cloth be replaced. For both options expect to pay for new cloth and cloth installation. For recreational players 4 7/8 is probably the best size between the points. For more dedicated players I would suggest 4 1/2. For very advanced players 4 1/4. The side pockets should be 1/2" bigger than the corners.

1. Add a pocket facing to the end of the rails. This is the easiest cheapest way to make a pocket smaller. The problem with this is the pocket facing rubber does not play the same as rail rubber. The pocket will accept balls easier than a normal pocket and any balls that hit the pocket facing next to the pocket will not bounce properly. The more facing material added the more noticable this will be.

2. Have a professional extend the sub rail with wood to support the rubber and replace the rail rubber. This is the correct way to make a pocket smaller but costs much more and is much more involved. Expect to spend 50-250 for rubber plus 150-300 for labor.
 
mnShooter said:
You have two options. Either way I would wait until you need to new cloth. You're probably not going to be able to find enough scraps to do the rails. Both options require the rail cloth be replaced. For both options expect to pay for new cloth and cloth installation. For recreational players 4 7/8 is probably the best size between the points. For more dedicated players I would suggest 4 1/2. For very advanced players 4 1/4. The side pockets should be 1/2" bigger than the corners.

1. Add a pocket facing to the end of the rails. This is the easiest cheapest way to make a pocket smaller. The problem with this is the pocket facing rubber does not play the same as rail rubber. The pocket will accept balls easier than a normal pocket and any balls that hit the pocket facing next to the pocket will not bounce properly. The more facing material added the more noticable this will be.

2. Have a professional extend the sub rail with wood to support the rubber and replace the rail rubber. This is the correct way to make a pocket smaller but costs much more and is much more involved. Expect to spend 50-250 for rubber plus 150-300 for labor.
Click to expand...


But what about the loss in the shelf? i would like to go down to 4 7/8 corner and 5 3/8 side, but I am concerned with the reduction in shelf from 1 1/2 currently to 1 3/8 (due to the pocket points being moved down 1/8 inch deeper into the pocket).

Does anyone know if the Gold Crowns have te same shelf depth, i.e. same slate in either standard or Tournament setup as their standard 9 foot home furniture tables?

If so, those tables would have the same shelf depth issue...
 
Just leave them as is. I have a older Brunswick. Bought it in 1975. Did a lot of research and at the time the pockets were made according to the BCA standards. The corners are 5" at the openning. Because of the entry angle balls will rattle the pocket easier than on a tighter Diamond. The first time I played on a tighter Diamond I was amazed at how the pockets seemed to suck the ball in instead of jawing it. Many players that play on it are amazed that the table does not play as easy as it looks.

I wouldn't blame the mechanic or you for not making the pockets smaller. The rubber was cut from the manufacturer. Shimming the pocket is not the same as making the pockets smaller by extending the rubber on the rails.

Here is a great link on how hard a table plays.

http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php

According to this my table is rated at 14
 
Last edited:
"Here is a great link on how hard a table plays."

http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php





I tried this on my 1965 Brunswick table. It came out to a 10.8 rating. I hope I'm measuring correctly........maybe some others can chime in...... I've played on some tighter tables and didn't find it harder to pocket balls.. My table shelf measures 2".
 
javi2 said:
"Here is a great link on how hard a table plays."

http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php





I tried this on my 1965 Brunswick table. It came out to a 10.8 rating. I hope I'm measuring correctly........maybe some others can chime in...... I've played on some tighter tables and didn't find it harder to pocket balls.. My table shelf measures 2".
Click to expand...

wow. what was the corner pocket opening at the points (I have 5 1/8) and at the end of the rail (i.e. inside point at end of cloth, I have 4 1/4). then you would take the shelf depth, which would be the shortest point perpendicular from the imaginary line from pocket mouth point to pocket mouth point ( I have 1.5") this comes out to about a rating of 14.5 for me.


One interesting note - I did go see my local Brunswick dealer that I bought the table from, and he did confirm for me that the "underslate" is the same for all 9' tables, including the gold crown. The tournament edition just has longer rails, and as a result, mathematically shorter shelves.

On another interesting note, he had an original gold crown I set up there, and I measured the pockets at 5 1/8 at the mouth points as well, with approximately the same shelf depth, maybe just slightly deeper (i.e. 1/16 to 1/8 inch). it leads me to more questions, which I'll address in another post after I get my thoughts together.

The other thing I noticed about the GC I is that it seemed to have far more lively cushions than my new ashbee, which also made it a little more difficult. Do they use special rubber over the home versions?

Thanks,
Ryan
 
I may have been measuring the shelf incorrectly. I tried it again and believe it is actually 1.5. Thus I got 5 1/4 x 4 1/8 divided by 1 1/2= 14.4
I think this is right.........:confused:
 
javi2 said:
I may have been measuring the shelf incorrectly. I tried it again and believe it is actually 1.5. Thus I got 5 1/4 x 4 1/8 divided by 1 1/2= 14.4
I think this is right.........:confused:
Click to expand...

You're most likely right now. What type of brunswick table is it?


Ryan
 
rjtcobra said:
wow. what was the corner pocket opening at the points (I have 5 1/8) and at the end of the rail (i.e. inside point at end of cloth, I have 4 1/4). then you would take the shelf depth, which would be the shortest point perpendicular from the imaginary line from pocket mouth point to pocket mouth point ( I have 1.5") this comes out to about a rating of 14.5 for me.


One interesting note - I did go see my local Brunswick dealer that I bought the table from, and he did confirm for me that the "underslate" is the same for all 9' tables, including the gold crown. The tournament edition just has longer rails, and as a result, mathematically shorter shelves.

On another interesting note, he had an original gold crown I set up there, and I measured the pockets at 5 1/8 at the mouth points as well, with approximately the same shelf depth, maybe just slightly deeper (i.e. 1/16 to 1/8 inch). it leads me to more questions, which I'll address in another post after I get my thoughts together.

The other thing I noticed about the GC I is that it seemed to have far more lively cushions than my new ashbee, which also made it a little more difficult. Do they use special rubber over the home versions?

Thanks,
Ryan
Click to expand...

Look at the Brunswick site

http://www.brunswickbilliards.com/brunswick_collection/tables/index.html

It appears as if they both use super speed cushions. The difference may be in the cloth.
 
TheBook said:
Just leave them as is. I have a older Brunswick. Bought it in 1975. Did a lot of research and at the time the pockets were made according to the BCA standards. The corners are 5" at the openning. Because of the entry angle balls will rattle the pocket easier than on a tighter Diamond.
Click to expand...

Amen to that, brother!!! The "buckets" on my Brunswick, because of the angle of the facings, rattle more balls than a French whore :eek:!!!

Maniac
 
rjtcobra said:
You're most likely right now. What type of brunswick table is it?


Ryan
Click to expand...

1965 Brunswick Squire 9. According to Brunswick they only made these tables for one year. 1' registered slate, superspeed cushions, oak beam frame.
 
ok, crazy idea here -

Knowing I just want to tighten up my pockets each by 1/4 inch to 4 7/8 corner and 5 3/8 side, without changing pocket angle or shelf depth,

How about getting a custom set of rails made, wood included, 1/8 inch longer in each pocket, using Diamond Black cushions k55 with each rail wood approximately 1/8 inch thicker as well? this would retain the exact pocket shelf depth, tighten the pocket and only loose 1/8 inch playing surface on all sides....

I am starting to think I am loosing my mind......
 
rjtcobra said:
ok, crazy idea here -

How about getting a custom set of rails made, wood included, 1/8 inch longer in each pocket, using Diamond Black cushions k55 with each rail wood approximately 1/8 inch thicker as well? this would retain the exact pocket shelf depth, tighten the pocket and only loose 1/8 inch playing surface on all sides....

I am starting to think I am loosing my mind......
Click to expand...

You ARE losing your mind :grin:. Those custom made rails are gonna cost you an arm and a leg :(!!!

Maniac
 
rjtcobra said:
ok, crazy idea here -

Knowing I just want to tighten up my pockets each by 1/4 inch to 4 7/8 corner and 5 3/8 side, without changing pocket angle or shelf depth,

How about getting a custom set of rails made, wood included, 1/8 inch longer in each pocket, using Diamond Black cushions k55 with each rail wood approximately 1/8 inch thicker as well? this would retain the exact pocket shelf depth, tighten the pocket and only loose 1/8 inch playing surface on all sides....

I am starting to think I am loosing my mind......
Click to expand...

If you alter the playing surface you may also affect the banks even though it is minute.

This is like the guy that bought the fastest race car until he got beat, there will always be "better".

You said that you are not a pro. You want to play for fun. Learn to play with good fundamentals and you will be able to play on any table. There are hundreds of players that wish they had your table.

Keep playing on it until you need to have it recovered. It may be a long time though as I still have my original cloth from 1975. Leave well enough alone and enjoy.
 
TheBook said:
If you alter the playing surface you may also affect the banks even though it is minute.

This is like the guy that bought the fastest race car until he got beat, there will always be "better".

You said that you are not a pro. You want to play for fun. Learn to play with good fundamentals and you will be able to play on any table. There are hundreds of players that wish they had your table.

Keep playing on it until you need to have it recovered. It may be a long time though as I still have my original cloth from 1975. Leave well enough alone and enjoy.
Click to expand...


That's great advice........ :cool:
 
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