Please Help with this 2-Ball Pattern

Jen_Cen said:

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Also, what if the 8 is on the rail? How can I get on the 9-ball?

Thanks!
Jen
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To answer your other question, if the 8 is frozen to the rail, it's more difficult.

I would say there are two decent choices. My first would be to use just draw and hit it like below. The reason why I would choose this is because it's easier to control than most other options. You could also use low right if you're more comfortable with it - same result.

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The other option, if you're more comfortable with follow, would be to hit it like below with high left (inside) - a little more advanced. The focus on this shot is to use smooth spin to get the ball around the table instead of slamming it. The goal is to hit the first or second diamond just past the side pocket as illustrated.

The reason why I don't like this as much is a lot can go wrong. If you don't get enough follow, the angle will be too steep and the side pocket or corner scratch comes into play. If you don't get enough left, the cue ball won't have much speed. It's also easy to miss the 8 because a lot of inside is necessary to get the ball around the table.

Anyway, these are all good shots for every player at every level to practice.



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I'd just draw it back. Lots of different ways to get there, especially when your practicing. Easiest to me is just a draw shot. Feel like I'm fine anywhere past the side pocket with where the 9 is at.
 
no doubt

Follow the object ball.to position on the 9. This is a KISS shot. Only a gross error here losses. I know from experience.:grin: Miscue, jump the cue ball, bad stroke and cue doesn't draw, draw off center, I've done it all.
( Oh! KISS just means Keep It Simple Stupid)
 
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The question that everybody is answering is "how would you shoot this?". Here's another question: "what's the highest percentage way for a player of unknown skill to shoot this?" - in other words, "what technique is inherently the most consistent and accurate?" The answer to that is follow.

It doesn't surprise me that most players here prefer a technique (draw or spinning off the rail) that is not inherently the simplest and most accurate. We do what we're comfortable with.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
The question that everybody is answering is "how would you shoot this?". Here's another question: "what's the highest percentage way for a player of unknown skill to shoot this?" - in other words, "what technique is inherently the most consistent and accurate?" The answer to that is follow.

It doesn't surprise me that most players here prefer a technique (draw or spinning off the rail) that is not inherently the simplest and most accurate. We do what we're comfortable with.

pj
chgo
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It is interesting you say that. Do you suggest that shooting down table at the corner and following is the simplist and most accurate?

Chris
 
TATE said:
It is interesting you say that. Do you suggest that shooting down table at the corner and following is the simplist and most accurate?

Chris
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Here's an old RSB post by Ron Shepard in which he discusses it:

There are several reasons for the reliability and consistency differences in using topspin and draw. As for reliability, look at fig. 4.7 in APAPP. You will see there that the total range of cue ball deflection angles is about 5 times larger for draw than for topspin. With natural roll topspin, for example, the cue ball will vary from 0 degrees (straight on) on a very thin cut, up to about 30 degrees for a half-ball hit, and then back to 0 degrees for thick hits. But with draw, the cue ball goes from 0 degrees on thin hits all the way back to 180 degrees on thick hits. So, while draw gives you more options (which is why it is necessary on some shots), it also results in the cue ball path being more sensitive to the cut angle.

As for consistency, there is also the effect of ball-cloth friction. With topspin, the ball-cloth friction is working in your favor. As the ball is sliding on the cloth, the ball is always approaching the natural roll topspin condition. If the distance is large enough, then the cue ball always hits the object ball with the same spin/speed state (namely natural roll topspin) regardless of the tip-ball contact point. But this never happens for draw. Draw is a transient unstable condition of the cue ball, not the stable condition. With draw, you are always fighting against the ball-cloth friction (on the first part of the shot, before the cue ball hits the object ball). Different tables have different ball-cloth friction, so draw depends more on the table conditions than does topspin. And on bar tables, there is the issue of the heavy cue ball, of course.

>Also, I find
>myself FAVORING the 15 degree cut angle (to straight) over the 30 to 45
>degree position (which most players favor) for getting position on their
>next shot. Anyone else have preferences?

Yes, when you play position for draw, you almost always want straighter shots. And if you don't get them, you can't get the draw to work exactly the way you wanted. But if you miss a topspin position shot, you often can still use topspin to do the same thing (after accounting for any speed differences and such). You can see evidence in this sensitivity in the way your statement reads -- you favor a 15 degree cut angle (presumably with very little variation possible) compared to the 30 to 45 degree angle you would use with topspin position (with topspin, it often doesn't matter exactly what is the angle).

When I leaned to play pool some 30 years ago, I heard the expression, "Use draw for show; use follow for the dough". That's a good rule of thumb. At least it is a good summary of all of these reliability and consistency differences.

$.02 -Ron Shepard
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TATE said:
It is interesting you say that. Do you suggest that shooting down table at the corner and following is the simplist and most accurate?

Chris
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If the needed shape were a lot tighter, for example I had to leave the cue ball 1 diamond or so from the corner pocket and within a ball of the head cushion, I think the follow shot would definitely be the best way. Even without that tough requirement, I think the follow shot is easier to control for the reasons in Ron's posting. Also, there is a pretty easy system to get the follow angle you need, while the system for draw is much more demanding.
 
Cornerman said:
When I quoted your post, the WEI tags were off to the right of the URL.

I consider this the standard pattern for this shot and similar. In commentator vernacular, it's "through the center of the table toward the second diamond."

If the object ball is closer to the cushion or even frozen, the I like to simply put the cueball straighter and stretch.

Fred
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This is the way I would play it every time!
 
TATE said:
Either Neil's 1st shot or Jay's draw would be fine. I think the 8 is too far down table to consider the follow (Neil's 2nd shot) as a top option.

I would like to point out that I think to play shape for the straight back draw, especially with ball-in-hand, is one of the most overlooked shots in pool. Since 9 ball players are always looking for angle, they rarely try to leave themselves straight in.

I would personally hit the draw shot sightly different - I would draw with a slight angle into the rail - that leaves me plenty of room to clear the side pocket points so I don't get a surprise if I make a slight aiming error- see below.

Chris

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Yep, I like Tate's approach on this one although the first post is a shot you HAVE to master.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Here's another question: "what's the highest percentage way for a player of unknown skill to shoot this?" - in other words, "what technique is inherently the most consistent and accurate?" The answer to that is follow.
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All things being equal, follow caroms are inherently more forgiving than other types. However, all things aren't equal in this position, and I don't think follow is necessarily the answer with the highest percentage when all factors are considered, at least on tight equipment.

A proper analysis would include the combined probability of making both shots, and would require assumptions about expected errors in tip placement, cue speed, aiming, etc. The idea of what's "inherently" best here beyond personal preference is interesting, but gets complicated quickly...

For example, pocketing the 8 in the top left (the draw shot) has roughly 4x more margin of error than playing it in the top right (the follow shot.) Is playing position with follow here more than 4x easier than with draw?

Before you answer, remember you have BIH. That means you can put the CB close enough that little draw is worn off before contact (i.e. spin/speed ratio is as predictable as draw can be - error is mostly tip placement.) If you try to put the CB close enough to the OB on the follow shot to offset the pocket distance (see Jewett's How Tough is Tough?), then tip placement can be an issue there too because natural roll might not have distance to equalize.

Also, the draw shot can be played straight in, but the follow shot requires adding cut angle to the shot to keep the CB off the rail near the 9. Not only are out beloved follow caroms extremely sensitive with full hits (it's easy to come away from the rail too far and have a bad angle), but adding cut angle to the follow shot also decreases the pocketing margin of error slightly.

NR and RNR both have a 1:6 ratio of CB:OB rolling distance. That means to get straight in on the 9 requires much more than pocket speed to either pocket. Speed shrinks pocket size along the rail, especially with worn cloth, so that's another strike against the longer shot on a tight table.

Robert
 
Robert Raiford:
you can put the CB close enough that little draw is worn off before contact
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That's true, but with draw you still have to judge tip placement and speed, whereas with follow tip placement is "automatic" and only speed is a significant variable. (I suppose you could say almost the same thing about draw if you limit yourself to maximum draw.)

follow caroms [are] extremely sensitive with full hits (it's easy to come away from the rail too far and have a bad angle)
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How does this comport with Bob Jewett's statement that "there is a pretty easy system to get the follow angle you need, while the system for draw is much more demanding"?

...or with Ron Shepard's statement that "the cue ball will vary from 0 degrees (straight on) on a very thin cut, up to about 30 degrees for a half-ball hit, and then back to 0 degrees for thick hits. But with draw, the cue ball goes from 0 degrees on thin hits all the way back to 180 degrees on thick hits. So, while draw gives you more options (which is why it is necessary on some shots), it also results in the cue ball path being more sensitive to the cut angle"?

pj
chgo
 
I normally will shoot the shot Fred illustrated, but if I don't feel comfortable judging the draw on a particular table, I won't hesitate to shoot the ball in the top corner and follow up for position.

There is a way to play this shot that doesn't require draw or follow, however, and I personally think it's one of the easiest shots to judge from this position:

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This is a stop shot with maximum right hand spin. Not a shot you'd choose when you're 8 feet away, but at 1 foot it's not too bad.

Aaron
 
The shot above (which cornerman also quoted) is the standard shot, and highest %.

Straight follow or draw, although LOOKING simple is just too easy to dog. If you hit long/short--- you're coming with a shot on the 9.

By going two rails (through the center of the table), it's REALLY, REALLY hard to not get out. If you're short, you're fine. If you're perfect, you're fine. If you're long, you're fine.

Regardless of one's skill level, they should play the shot this way. Otherwise, they're not getting used to playing proper patterns.

Just my humble opinion.
 
I like seeing the multiple ways people would play a shot, it always gets the wheels turning. I would recommend that whatever the shooter is comfortable with whether it is draw or follow....don't forget to make the object ball :). Worst case scenario you don't have perfect shape BUT you are still at the table. I see a lot of people (sometimes including myself) missing the shot because they are trying to play perfect shape. Good luck experimenting.
 
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All I know is getting shape onthe 9 from here with BIH is a hanger compaired to knowing how to make a WEI table.

There is a pile of good advice in this thread so try them all the next 3 or 4 times you go play and then the question will answere it self, and you'll wont have a problem again.

Sadly I still wont know how to post a pic or WIE table:(

best of luck,

Eric

PS: again try everything that has been showed to you on 3 or 4 seperate trips to the pool room and you'll know what works best for you, what works for Jay Helfert might not work for me. I know what are his "Pet" shots in banks so I dont leave him in position to shoot a particular bank he makes easily. Point being what works for one player might not work for another. There is right and wrong ways in pool, but in this shot 8 to the 9 there are many ways to get there and not be in danger of scratching.
 
Neil said:
You can also just follow the 8 up table. Just give yourself a slight angle so you can't scratch in the same pocket if you follow it to far.

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this is the correct shot. If it doesn't feel right, or you have a low percentage of making this shot, shoot it a few hundred times. It's still the correct shot. :wink:
 
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