Please Help with this 2-Ball Pattern

[KoolKat9Lives]

What's so hard about this???

CueTable Help

I agree with Neil, Patrick and Gatz. If you can't make this shot, take up a different hobby. Getting position from this shot is the easiest and safest.

That being said, if faced with this shot off the Wei table, I might be tempted and even inclined to go off the rail with bottom right - the 2 rail back & forth for the 9 in the upper right corner. For anyone with any decent speed, it's natural pattern play, like Spidey said.

 

[TATE]

What's so hard about this???

CueTable Help

I marvel at the differences in responses, but some of it has to do with the equipment differences. Since they made our corners out here 4", this shot is no longer a hanger.

Scott Lee has a drill that I used to practice. You line up balls on the headstring and shoot them at the corner pockets downtable, taking the cue ball in hand on every single shot. It sounds simple but try it on a tight table. I think every player should practice this - to see how small the cueing margin of error is on a shot where the OB travels 7 feet to a 4" pocket - even on straight in shots.

I can run quite a few balls doing this now, usually practice 50 or so without missing, but when I first started doing the drill I was surprised to find that I was missing maybe one out of 10 or 15 - and that was without even playing shape.

Chris

 

[TATE]

this is the correct shot. If it doesn't feel right, or you have a low percentage of making this shot, shoot it a few hundred times. It's still the correct shot. :wink:

If you gave a pro ball in hand and said get out from here, I guess I would be surprised to see any choose this.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Here's an old RSB post by Ron Shepard in which he discusses it:

Patrick,

I've seen your posts before about the solution to some situations encouraging shooting down table, especially on these rail shots.

I admit, reading this it opened up my eyes to more possibilities that at times I wouldn't ordinarily consider from my usual habits. Some patterns are a lot easier if you just simply take the down table shot and just roll forward.

I think we should start a new thread on this - the situation where the down table shot is better to take, and what the risks are.

Chris

 

[SpiderWebComm]

If a person has questionable abilities, a lot can go wrong with a straight follow shot.

- they could setup with a hair too much angle on the 8 and follow too much to the center of the table.
- they could not setup any angle and end up on the rail
- they could put the CB too close to the 8 and not follow anywhere near enough
- they could get rattled and hit it too hard with follow and end up underneath the 9

All the of the above can happen even with a good player, let alone someone who might be a little frazzled.

By coming across the center to the right of the bottom side pocket, all you have to do is focus on missing the side to the right and you're out - end of story. The margin of error is just so great you literally can't blow it at nearly any playing ability.

Joe Tucker posted a very similar scenario months ago with the 8 being at the center of the short rail and the 9 residing on the same position on the opposite end of the table. Like this thread, there were 1000 solutions. The best way to play that shot is a 3/4 rail draw shot. The visually (wei-table) simple shot is just 1 rail straight down. You'd be SHOCKED at how often you can get bad--- even for a great player.

So, in conclusion---- that follow looks awesome on the Wei table. We'll all likely get out 95% of the time. However, the more you play shots like that the more you'll eventually pull your hair out because you dogged it when it really counted. Nerves don't come into play with the 2 rail option. Soft, medium, hard all get you to the promised land.

There's obviously more than 1 way to skin a cat. But, some ways don't get your hands bloody so why risk it. (imo)

 

[Robert Raiford]

(I suppose you could say almost the same thing about draw if you limit yourself to maximum draw.)

That's the idea.

How does this comport with Bob Jewett's statement that "there is a pretty easy system to get the follow angle you need, while the system for draw is much more demanding"?

...or with Ron Shepard's statement that "the cue ball will vary from 0 degrees (straight on) on a very thin cut, up to about 30 degrees for a half-ball hit, and then back to 0 degrees for thick hits. But with draw, the cue ball goes from 0 degrees on thin hits all the way back to 180 degrees on thick hits. So, while draw gives you more options (which is why it is necessary on some shots), it also results in the cue ball path being more sensitive to the cut angle"?

Both of them are comparing the full range of follow and draw carom angles. When you compare NR and RNR caroms for extremely full hits, they are similarly sensitive. For example, a 7 degree cut has a 16 degree NR carom and a 17 degree RNR carom (where 0 is straight back for draw.)

The shot in the diagram requires a 4 degree cut or less to keep the CB from getting too far from the rail. Both NR and RNR give 10 degree caroms for a 4 degree cut. That's a 2.5:1 sensitivity to cut angle.

Robert

p.s. These are just comments on PJ's follow/draw comparison. Personally, I would play using the rails to help control speed as well as enter the triangular position zone in a bigger way (unless the rails were in bad shape.) Both follow and draw cut across the zone in a smaller area and there's no cushion to help with speed.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Hey Spidey, how did you put those big radioactive red balls on your wei table? Your use of them was very helpful to understanding your commentary.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hey Spidey, how did you put those big radioactive red balls on your wei table? Your use of them was very helpful to understanding your commentary.

I just did a screen capture and did it in Photoshop

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I just did a screen capture and did it in Photoshop

show off

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Cornerman is the best right hand player on this thread! I am left hand player and would still use that for shape. Froze, I would go forward or back one rail to left side of 9 (facing 8)

 

[Fatboy]

Eric, go to Main Forum, then look at the stickies. There is one for the wei table. Read it. Not hard at all to do the basic table and layouts. There are still things I can't do on it due to sheer laziness in taking the time to learn it. It's fun to play around with though.

thanks Neil

I have tried and i'm just lame, same as posting picutres, I can draw my ball up and back on a 9' pool table on new 860, but dont have the patents to fiddle around with compiter stuff, I have a short fuse(with computers) and have been known to smash them in frustration,

FAX machines are really scared of me. i have smashed lots of those and cel phones too

best
eric

 

[Fatboy]

I marvel at the differences in responses, but some of it has to do with the equipment differences. Since they made our corners out here 4", this shot is no longer a hanger.

Scott Lee has a drill that I used to practice. You line up balls on the headstring and shoot them at the corner pockets downtable, taking the cue ball in hand on every single shot. It sounds simple but try it on a tight table. I think every player should practice this - to see how small the cueing margin of error is on a shot where the OB travels 7 feet to a 4" pocket - even on straight in shots.

I can run quite a few balls doing this now, usually practice 50 or so without missing, but when I first started doing the drill I was surprised to find that I was missing maybe one out of 10 or 15 - and that was without even playing shape.

Chris

that rolling the CB behind the 8 thats 7' from the pocket is fine on a barbox or a 9' Diamond. But at HOB or HB where I play in LA and you play that aint the right shot in a million years on 4" or 3 7/8" pockets. These guys need to come try that shot on a Ernesto table and see how they like, a wet one in Santa Monica.

 

[~jj~]

Max Eberle's take on this shot:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MaxEberle#p/u/0/xWuGVJdcPXE

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Max Eberle's take on this shot:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MaxEberle#p/u/0/xWuGVJdcPXE

Good find. I don't think there's a pro in the world who would follow that shot.

 

[PoolBum]

The question that everybody is answering is "how would you shoot this?".

I wasn't. I don't think the follow shot in this case is the highest percentage for a player of unknown skill level either.

 

[PoolBum]

Cornerman is the best right hand player on this thread!

How did you know I was left handed?

 

[Bob Jewett]

So, there are lots of opinions here. If anyone wants to test out which way is best, come by the 14.1 room at DCC and you can try your favorite way against a couple of others.

Which way works best depends some on the player. An APA SL-2 is not going to get there with draw or side spin, I'm pretty sure.

 

[TATE]

So, there are lots of opinions here. If anyone wants to test out which way is best, come by the 14.1 room at DCC and you can try your favorite way against a couple of others.

Which way works best depends some on the player. An APA SL-2 is not going to get there with draw or side spin, I'm pretty sure.

All I can say is, we probably solved the original poster's dilemma - she'll probably just quit the game after reading all of this! :wink:

Chris

 

[Gatz]

LOL I dunno what kinda stuff some of you guys are on but that follow shot is not that hard.

Ok your playing on 4" pockets? WTF are you doing playing on a table with 4" pockets? This can't be that enjoyable, 4 1/4 is the best in my opinion. Even with a table with 4" pockets this shot is very do able. Just hit it pocket weight. The other shots listed arn't going to be any easier.

If she can't reach the shot the follow shot is perfect. Yes you could set it up so that you go inside english 3-4 rails with follow but this requires a much better stroke than a simple follow shot and it requires good judgement of your throw/masse. Yes you could just simply draw the ball, but she can't reach it, like she said, so she would have to get the rake, and a lot of people are not comfortable drawing the ball with the rake.

I could get out 50 times out of 50 times with that follow shot. The inside english or draw shot I wouldn't get out as many times compared to the follow shot.

 

[PoolBum]

LOL I dunno what kinda stuff some of you guys are on but that follow shot is not that hard.

I don't think the follow shot is that hard. I just think (1) pocketing the ball in the corner pocket it is nearest to is easier than pocketing it in the far pocket (two feet to the pocket as opposed to six); (2) judging speed for position is easier using the two cushions as opposed to trying to judge the draw shot or follow shot speed alone using no cushions (I think it's somewhat easy to over draw/follow or, especially, under draw the cueball here--it is not a short draw/follow shot); and (3) there is a greater margin of error as far as position is concerned with the two cushion shot as opposed to the straight back draw or follow.