Rail Shots - target point

[Ralph Kramden]

The Science of Pocket Billiards by Jack H. Koehler

On page 109 in his book there is an underlined statement in chapter 8.
The section in question is called, How to shoot a rail shot. He writes:

THE TARGET POINT IS ALWAYS ON THE CUSHION SIDE

Where do you aim when shooting a rail shot?

 

[nathandumoulin]

I try to treat every shot the same way, and aim at it as if the rail wasn't even there. I'm curious if many other people do this?

 

[Falcon Eddie]

Most of the time I use inside and hit the rail just slightly before the O B Practice , practice, practice

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

It depends where I want the cue ball to go.

However, if I'm cinching a rail shot (meaning I don't need position for the CB) I'd be inclined to use a rolling cue ball with no english and hit the rail and OB simultaneously. For large angle rail cuts, I'd be inclined to apply some inside and go rail first.

KK9 <-- didn't find a voting option that reflects his views on life at the moment

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The Science of Pocket Billiards by Jack H. Koehler

On page 109 in his book there is an underlined statement in chapter 8.
The section in question is called, How to shoot a rail shot. He writes:

THE TARGET POINT IS ALWAYS ON THE CUSHION SIDE

Where do you aim when shooting a rail shot?

I assume Koehler means to slightly overcut the shot (like any other shot) to compensate for collision-throw. Obviously this won't work for outside english shots, which have to be hit farther from the cushion to compensate for spin-throw.

Like Nathan, I aim rail-frozen shots as if the rail isn't there, no matter what kind of sidespin I'm using. The CB only needs to compress the rail very slightly before contacting the OB - too little to throw the shot off - so you can ignore it.

pj
chgo

 

[Maniac]

I was told when I was still a young lad to hit the rail and ball at the same time, which is what I try to do. The way I do this though may be a little unorthodox. Depending on the angle of the shot I aim at the rail with the center axis line of my cue at @ 1 1/8" (give or take depending on the angle of course) to the very outside of the object ball. I am pretty good at running object balls down the rail. My best friend and shooting buddy told me that I shoot the rail shots better than anyone he's ever seen. I personally think it's just something you can do or cannot do, kind of an inherent skill if you will. I've seen people that cannot shoot them no matter what aiming system they use.

Maniac

 

[sfleinen]

Ralph:

Glad you made this a multiple-choice poll, for "rail shot" could mean anything -- object ball against/touching the rail; object ball slightly away from the rail; etc. And then you have the cue ball's relationship to that object ball -- i.e. more behind the object ball in line with the pocket; or more to the side of the object ball, where there's an acute cut angle for that object ball, etc.

Depending on the situation, I might do the following:

1. Object ball against/touching the cushion, with the cue ball more or less in line with that object ball to the pocket. I'll aim to hit the object ball and the cushion at the same time.

2. Object ball close-to, but not touching the cushion, with the cue ball more or less in line with that object ball to the pocket. I'll just aim at the object ball and ignore the cushion/rail completely (because it's not in play for the shot other than the cue ball is going to collide with it after contact with the object ball).

3. Object ball against/touching the cushion, with the cue ball off to the side of the object ball, where there's an acute cut angle to cut the object ball down the cushion. Here, depending on how steep the cut angle is, I'll either try to hit the object ball and the cushion at the same time, or if the cut angle is really acute, I'll aim to hit the cushion first with lots of inside english/spin, so the cue ball will penetrate into the cushion, and then "roll" into the object ball.

4. Object ball close-to, but not touching the cushion, with the cue ball off to the side of the object ball, where there's an acute cut angle to cut the object ball down the cushion. Here, I just aim to contact and cut the object ball directly, and ignore the rail/cushion, because it is not in play for this shot (again, other than the fact that the cue ball will collide with the cushion after impact with the object ball).

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

I try to treat every shot the same way, and aim at it as if the rail wasn't even there. I'm curious if many other people do this?

Pretty much.

I would assume the info in the original post is true too though because technically the target point of the center of the CB is on the rail, if you were shooting a 1/4 ball hit, you would be aiming for 1/4 of the CB to hit the OB at 1/4 putting the center of the CB on a rail target??? SO, I think mentally I am aiming for the rail with whatever overlapping portion of the CB to make contact with the OB.

So I guess you could aim either way and it would be effective, aiming past the OB or at the OB, depends on your perspective so maybe and argument could be made either way, relative to personal result? a matter of aiming AT, or THRU the OB? even though technically you both target points yield the same result???

 

[Patrick Johnson]

KoolKat9Lives:
if I'm cinching a rail shot (meaning I don't need position for the CB) I'd be inclined to use a rolling cue ball with no english and hit the rail and OB simultaneously

This may be what you think of when you aim, but it can't be what really happens or you'd drive the OB into the rail with collision-throw and miss most of these shots. You have to overcut them slightly (hit slightly rail first) to compensate for this throw, just like any other shot.

You can prove this to yourself very easily by freezing two balls together against the rail and shooting into one of them at an angle, like this:

CueTable Help

When the first ball is frozen to the rail and to the second ball, just like a CB hitting rail and ball simultaneously, the second ball rebounds off the rail because of throw.

If you separate the two balls slightly (to "overcut" the shot) or put a little moisture on the contact point between them (to eliminate the ball/ball friction) the second ball will go right down the rail into the pocket.

pj
chgo

 

[Andrew Manning]

Usually I play the ball as if the rail wasn't there. You aim a little thinner than the true ghost-ball contact point on all shots to compensate for throw, and this shot is no exception. This compensation causes the CB to hit the rail a tiny bit before the ball, but I don't have to consciously try to do that; just pretending the rail isn't there crates the intended effect.

Of course, if it's a really thin or even backwards cut, then I aim to miss the ball by a fraction, with lots of inside english, to make the shot. There's a much greater margin of error shooting a very thin cut along the rail this way, in my experience at least.

And also, of course, aiming any shot depends on what kind of english and speed I'm using for position.

-Andrew

 

[Ralph Kramden]

This may be what you think of when you aim, but it can't be what really happens or you'd drive the OB into the rail with collision-throw and miss most of these shots. You have to overcut them slightly (hit slightly rail first) to compensate for this throw, just like any other shot.

You can prove this to yourself very easily by freezing two balls together against the rail and shooting into one of them at an angle, like this:

CueTable Help

When the first ball is frozen to the rail and to the second ball, just like a CB hitting rail and ball simultaneously, the second ball rebounds off the rail because of throw.

If you separate the two balls slightly (to "overcut" the shot) or put a little moisture on the contact point between them (to eliminate the ball/ball friction) the second ball will go right down the rail into the pocket.

pj
chgo

Hitting the 1 ball as shown will make the 2 throw towards the rail and it will come out as in the diagram.

Try this... leaving the 1 and 2 where they are, lay a cue stick down from the 1 ball to the cue ball direction, with the tip under the rail.

Line up 4 more balls against the stick, touching each other, with the 1 ball still against the rail.

You now have 6 balls, 5 against the stick (including the 1) with the 1 and 2 against the rail.

Without disturbing the balls, roll away the 2nd ball in line. (the ball touching the 1)
Now you have three balls lined up with the 1, with a space between them, and then the 1 ball.

The reason there are 3 balls is to eliminate any 3rd ball throw. Remove the cue.

Roll the 1 away. By hitting the three balls, the end ball will contact both the rail and the 2 ball at the same time.

Do it again but move the 2 ball about 1/32" toward the pocket before removing the 1 ball. The end ball still sends the 2 into the pocket.

I've moved the 2 ball over 1/16" closer to the pocket. The end ball hit the rail a 1/16 inch away from the 2 ball and it still went in.

IMO you'll make more rail shots by actually trying to hit rail first.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hitting the 1 ball as shown will make the 2 throw towards the rail and it will come out as in the diagram.

Try this... leaving the 1 and 2 where they are, lay a cue stick down from the 1 ball to the cue ball direction, with the tip under the rail.

Line up 4 more balls against the stick, touching each other, with the 1 ball still against the rail.

You now have 6 balls, 5 against the stick (including the 1) with the 1 and 2 against the rail.

Without disturbing the balls, roll away the 2nd ball in line. (the ball touching the 1)
Now you have three balls lined up with the 1, with a space between them, and then the 1 ball.

The reason there are 3 balls is to eliminate any 3rd ball throw.

Roll the 1 away. By hitting the three balls, the end ball will contact both the rail and the 2 ball at the same time.

Like this:

CueTable Help

And the shot will miss as before because of collision-throw.

Do it again but move the 2 ball about 1/32" toward the pocket before removing the 1 ball. The end ball still sends the 2 into the pocket.

I've moved the 2 ball over 1/16" closer to the pocket. The end ball hit the rail a 1/16 inch away from the 2 ball and it still went in.

You have to move the 2 ball a little or the shot won't go - this allows the slight overcut you need on any shot to compensate for collision-throw.

In fact, you can hit the rail 1/4 inch or even more from the OB and still make the shot, although you have to use different speeds for different distances between the balls.

IMO you'll make more rail shots by actually trying to hit rail first.

That's what you do by ignoring the rail.

pj
chgo
pj
chgo

 

[Jal]

Early on, before I knew about throw, I thought the correct way was to contact the cushion and OB simultaneously. I still tend to picture it that way even though I now know better and apparently do hit rail-first (most of the time). When I try to consciously adjust and go rail-first, it can be a problem.

I'm think KoolKat is right with regard to a rolling cueball. Most of these shots should drop after a simultaneous hit, particularly when the cut angle isn't too great. The majority of the throw is downward into the bed and there's not much upward rebound; the cloth damps most of that out.

Probably the best advice for cinching a shot (CB position aside), which several have offered (Nathan, Patrick, Andrew), is to ignore the cushion for the purpose of establishing the aim line or contact point.

If the OB isn't too far from a pocket, and the pockets aren't excessively tight, whether to hit ball-first or rail-first isn't much of an issue as far as potting. But it does have a significant effect on CB position. Although I've practiced it some, and absorbed what I've have from general play (not much), watching Dr. Dave and Tom Ross exploit this in a methodical way in their video encyclopedia has been a real eye-opener for me.

Jim

 

[bud green]

I have this book in my car, and was talking about his rail first shot chart with players just a couple of days ago.

I never hit the rail first with outside english when shooting rail shots- like his chart indicates you should on many shots. Either ball first with outside, or rail first with either no english or inside.

Does anyone have success shooting .020" before the ball with outside like he says on some shots? Seems unnatural to me for some reason.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

bud green:
I have this book in my car, and was talking about his rail first shot chart with players just a couple of days ago.

I never hit the rail first with outside english when shooting rail shots- like his chart indicates you should on many shots. Either ball first with outside, or rail first with either no english or inside.

Does anyone have success shooting .020" before the ball with outside like he says on some shots? Seems unnatural to me for some reason.

I don't know what the book says about this, but it's possible to make a rail-first shot with any kind of english - you have to hit the same spot on the OB whether you hit ball first or rail first, so for instance if you're using outside english you have to hit the rail far enough from the OB so the CB will rebound off the rail slightly by the time it hits the OB. The fact that you can make all kinds of shots rail first (if you hit the right spot on the rail) is one reason rail-first is more forgiving.

I aim outside english rail-frozen shots to hit the OB first, but that's not the only way it's possible.

pj
chgo

 

[bud green]

I know its possible, I just don't think it feels natural and don't remember hearing any good players saying they shoot rail first with outside to give themselves the largest margin of error.

It might just be the way the shot looks to my eye.

 

[dr_dave]

I don't know what the book says about this, but it's possible to make a rail-first shot with any kind of english - you have to hit the same spot on the OB whether you hit ball first or rail first, so for instance if you're using outside english you have to hit the rail far enough from the OB so the CB will rebound off the rail slightly by the time it hits the OB. The fact that you can make all kinds of shots rail first (if you hit the right spot on the rail) is one reason rail-first is more forgiving.

I aim outside english rail-frozen shots to hit the OB first, but that's not the only way it's possible.

Excellent point.

If people want more info on rail cut shots, I have links to lots of resources here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#rail​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Ralph Kramden]

That's what you do by ignoring the rail.

pj
chgo

I think we're both saying the same thing... differently... but with the same end results.

You say ignore the rail... which really may be a better way to play most rail shots.
I say to contact the rail slightly first... which I think gives the highest percentages.

The poll is multiple choice, for those who shoot frozen rail shots differently, depending on the shot.

If I don't need pin point shape on the next ball, I usually try to feather the rail first for the best reults.
Either way it's said, our thoughts are almost identical because the ball pockets.

 

[justadub]

I have to say that this thread was quite helpful to me recently. I had never heard the "pretend the rail isn't there" approach before, and so I tried using it. While I don' think it's always applicable, it was really helpful for me on several shots.

Thanks for bringing it up! I can use all the help Ican get

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Ralph Kramden:
Either way it's said, our thoughts are almost identical

Yes, I agree. Just putting it different ways for different people to understand.

I've tried your setup, by the way, but I could never be really sure whether or not the "cue ball" was hitting the OB and rail simultaneously (too sensitive to setup errors). You can make the same adjustments (moving the 2nd OB away from the first one) with my 2-ball setup. Like you say, though, you have to be careful not to "contaminate" the results by hitting the first OB offcenter or putting spin on the CB.

pj
chgo