DCC, fairness to players?

[SUPERSTAR]

Is the DCC biting off more then it can chew, and being unfair to players in the process?

Let me see if i can be more clear on this.

If you have a player that enters every single thing possible, like the 3 main events, the 14.1 challenge, the 3 cushion, and the Fatboy challenge for instance, is it really fair for their opponents in the 3 main events to have their match bumped multiple times, while waiting for the "entered everything" said player to finish? Especially if they showed up to play in just one event?

Like, if the player shows up for the draw, has their match called, but then has their match bumped a couple of times because they just happen to draw an opponent who is running a billion balls in the 14.1 challenge, is it really fair to them?
I mean, if they show up on time, came prepared to play, but then get stuck sitting around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the guy to finish his run, so that when the match finally does take place, you have someone who has been sitting around cold for a couple of hours, and someone who is in dead punch because they just got done running a ton of balls, is that really fair?

I can understand that the promoters want to accommodate everyone, but to me, that just seems like a bunch of garbage, especially when you consider that you have OTHER players being told to check back every 20 minutes when their match isn't called yet, who then leave the room after they have been told their match hasn't come up yet, only to have their match called immediately after they walk out of the room, who are then subsequently put on the clock, and by the time they get back, they have forfeited, and are standing there scratching their head, wondering what the hell happened.

Should there be a policy in the future where a player who enters all 3 major events, who then decide to enter some of the extra events, are forced to decide which events are more important to them?

I mean, is it really fair for someone who abides by the rules, to basically get punished cause there is this need to cater to some players who want to play in everything, regardless of how that backs things up?

I mean, i already know like 4 guys who will not be returning to next years DCC cause they encountered problems along the lines of the ones i just mentioned, or didn't want to be a part of a "circus" anymore.

I mean, it was one thing, when back in the day, you had someone doing well in the banks, where the One Pocket had started, and they had to coordinate their matches to be able to play in both, and the same thing if someone went deep in the One Pocket when the 9Ball had started. Mind you, the 3 major events are all points events that go towards the Master of the Table award.
But with the addition of all the extra events, things have changed, and it just seems like it's getting a little out of hand.

When do you say enough is enough.

What do you propose as a solution to these types of issues? Should exceptions be made for the select players who choose to participate in all the extra stuff? Or should they be forced to take their turns in the extra events on their own time, should it interfere with the 3 majors. Or should they just be forfeited.

What do you guys think is fair here?

 

[Richardson]

Is the DCC biting off more then it can chew, and being unfair to players in the process?

Let me see if i can be more clear on this.

If you have a player that enters every single thing possible, like the 3 main events, the 14.1 challenge, the 3 cushion, and the Fatboy challenge for instance, is it really fair for their opponents in the 3 main events to have their match bumped multiple times, while waiting for the "entered everything" said player to finish? Especially if they showed up to play in just one event?

Like, if the player shows up for the draw, has their match called, but then has their match bumped a couple of times because they just happen to draw an opponent who is running a billion balls in the 14.1 challenge, is it really fair to them?
I mean, if they show up on time, came prepared to play, but then get stuck sitting around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the guy to finish his run, so that when the match finally does take place, you have someone who has been sitting around cold for a couple of hours, and someone who is in dead punch because they just got done running a ton of balls, is that really fair?

I can understand that the promoters want to accommodate everyone, but to me, that just seems like a bunch of garbage, especially when you consider that you have OTHER players being told to check back every 20 minutes when their match isn't called yet, who then leave the room after they have been told their match hasn't come up yet, only to have their match called immediately after they walk out of the room, who are then subsequently put on the clock, and by the time they get back, they have forfeited, and are standing there scratching their head, wondering what the hell happened.

Should there be a policy in the future where a player who enters all 3 major events, who then decide to enter some of the extra events, are forced to decide which events are more important to them?

I mean, is it really fair for someone who abides by the rules, to basically get punished cause there is this need to cater to some players who want to play in everything, regardless of how that backs things up?

I mean, i already know like 4 guys who will not be returning to next years DCC cause they encountered problems along the lines of the ones i just mentioned, or didn't want to be a part of a "circus" anymore.

I mean, it was one thing, when back in the day, you had someone doing well in the banks, where the One Pocket had started, and they had to coordinate their matches to be able to play in both, and the same thing if someone went deep in the One Pocket when the 9Ball had started. Mind you, the 3 major events are all points events that go towards the Master of the Table award.
But with the addition of all the extra events, things have changed, and it just seems like it's getting a little out of hand.

When do you say enough is enough.

What do you propose as a solution to these types of issues? Should exceptions be made for the select players who choose to participate in all the extra stuff? Or should they be forced to take their turns in the extra events on their own time, should it interfere with the 3 majors. Or should they just be forfeited.

What do you guys think is fair here?

The guys who wont be returning must not like money. That is a great tournament for players to make money, and thats what the sport needs. Most tournaments you wait and one point or another for someone.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

The guys who wont be returning must not like money. That is a great tournament for players to make money, and thats what the sport needs. Most tournaments you wait and one point or another for someone.

Actually, i consider this to be multiple tournaments, and not one event.

So with that, i have seen in the past, where a person entered multiple events, such as an Open division, and a team event, (two different events) where they had to pick one and forfeit the other when there were scheduling conflicts after they ran deep in both.

Seen this scenario lots of times actually. So should a person in one of the main events, have to wait around while someone else is playing in one of the extra events?
Same thing, two different events with scheduling conflicts.

 

[brandoncook26]

The derby is a unique event that is ran unlike any other, because it has to be. There is so much going on I dont see how they get it all done. Personally, I enjoy the format, and if I have to wait for my match in order for the "extra's" to continue, that is a concession I am willing to make.

I drew Santos Sambajon in the first round of the one pocket this year. My match was supposed to happen on Sunday, but it got bumped to Monday morning because he was still in the banks. I had to leave Sunday night for school in the morning. I busted my ass to get back Monday and showed up 15 min. before the match started (I live about an 1-1 1/2 hours away). It was worth it to me, but if others don't feel the same way, I would rather they not show up than change the format.

There is an obvious bias towards the professional players. The first year I went I got upset about it, but the more I thought about it, I realized that this is their job. You may go for fun, but they are trying to make their nut to be able to eat. If they enter the 14.1 and one pocket challenge to try and make some extra money, good for them. I am essentially a donater to the pool of money for the pro's, but that is okay with me because I go to have fun; not get upset when things don't work out for me.

-Brandon

 

[Richardson]

I love that car.

The derby is a unique event that is ran unlike any other, because it has to be. There is so much going on I dont see how they get it all done. Personally, I enjoy the format, and if I have to wait for my match in order for the "extra's" to continue, that is a concession I am willing to make.

I drew Santos Sambajon in the first round of the one pocket this year. My match was supposed to happen on Sunday, but it got bumped to Monday morning because he was still in the banks. I had to leave Sunday night for school in the morning. I busted my ass to get back Monday and showed up 15 min. before the match started (I live about an 1-1 1/2 hours away). It was worth it to me, but if others don't feel the same way, I would rather they not show up than change the format.

There is an obvious bias towards the professional players. The first year I went I got upset about it, but the more I thought about it, I realized that this is their job. You may go for fun, but they are trying to make their nut to be able to eat. If they enter the 14.1 and one pocket challenge to try and make some extra money, good for them. I am essentially a donater to the pool of money for the pro's, but that is okay with me because I go to have fun; not get upset when things don't work out for me.

-Brandon

 

[12squared]

It's a tough tournament period to regulate your time (or set of tournaments) because of the buybacks. You really never know when you're going to play so I don't see that what you described is a big problem. But it is an additional scheduling problem that does affect others.

I would suggest in these cases where matches are delayed because your opponent is playing in another event, that the tournament directors, helpers, whatever, take a cell phone number from the one waiting and call them 15 minutes before the match will take place. I do think it's wrong that the one being inconvenienced has to check back every 20 minutes, why should they be tortured because of the scheduling issues. This might make it more bearable I would think.

Just a thought.

Dave

 

[sliprock]

I wouldn't mind waiting if my opponent was in another competition. I haven't been back to the derby in several years, but the thing that used to chap my ass, was Scott Smith would put your average Joe on the clock and count him out 15 minutes later. The Champions didn't have that problem. He would wait forever and make sure every possible attempt was made to find the said player before a forfeit was issued. I drawed Larry Price in the banks first round several years ago. He doesn't show. I wait 30 minutes after our match is called, go to the scorers desk and they tell me I'm done, Price forfeits. I leave the hotel, get something to eat and 2 hours later Scott Smith is paging me telling me to get my cue, I have to play Larry. He was sleeping in his room and Scott takes away the forfeit. The only decent thing was Greg payed for my re-buy.

 

[cardiac kid]

There is an obvious bias towards the professional players. The first year I went I got upset about it, but the more I thought about it, I realized that this is their job. You may go for fun, but they are trying to make their nut to be able to eat. If they enter the 14.1 and one pocket challenge to try and make some extra money, good for them. I am essentially a donater to the pool of money for the pro's, but that is okay with me because I go to have fun; not get upset when things don't work out for me.

Used to feel the same way. There for the fun. Realistically, it is the other way round. There is no tournament without you or me. The twenty or thirty true professionals that show up would be playing for each others money without us. We are the prime supporters of the DCC and every other major pool event.

Allen Hopkins states in his entry for the SBE, you can enter multiple events. If they overlap, he will not re-schedule one match. You forfeit one match. Period. The Derby should be the same way. Either that or add another day or two to the event. The pro's are going to show up regardless. So might you and me!

Brandon, how would you have felt if your match with Santos had been postponed again to accomodate him and you were NOT able to attend? Would you still accept the loss of time and money as easily?


Lyn

 

[SUPERSTAR]

There is an obvious bias towards the professional players.

-Brandon

This reminds me of the time, i had to play my morning match against a "name" player, deep in the 9ball.
When the match was called, and my opponent was nowhere to be seen, i went to the desk and mentioned it to them.

It took them the better part of 15 minutes to finally put the guy on the clock, and that was only after you had this huge mobilization of people looking for him, trying to let him know he had to play.

Of course, he finally walks in with like 1 minute left on the clock, a full 29 minutes after the match got called.

I wonder if they would have stalled the start time for the clock if i was the one who was late. Would there have been masses of people looking for me to make sure that i got word that i had to play?

NOT!

Did i happen to think that it was some major B.S.?
Absolutely.
Did anyone give a crap about how they bent the rules so that a name wouldn't suffer a forfeit because they couldn't get their butt out of bed and to the match on time, when they were staying at the Executive West in the first place, where i on the other hand, was staying 15 minutes away, and made sure that i got up early so i would have time to eat, shower up and drive there to be on time, so that i wouldn't forfeit?

Nope. I was all by myself in that department.

 

[Russ Chewning]

I believe the tournament coordinators should look into renting radio frequency paging systems like those used in restaurants. Charge $5-$10 a day per thingamajob, and I would think they could easily cover their costs, and a good percentage of players would not be caught off guard on their match.

Either that, or they could invest in software that would allow one to automatically text a player if their match is up. I would think we have at least a few people in the pool world that have the knowledge to write some programming code that would do this on an internet-connected computer being used to run the tournament software.

This could even be a revenue stream for the promoter. Charge $10 a player for the ability to be texted when your match is up. Split the money 50/50 with the programmer that writes the code that accomplishes this.

Anyone that can do that? There are all sorts of workable scenarios here. Charge $5 a day for the texting.. Charge $20 for the entire tournament.. etc..etc..etc...

I don't know why I didn't think of these ideas before..One of these is pretty much the solution to the DCC scheduling issues.

Russ

 

["T"]

There are still going to be the occasional exceptions and mistakes made, but overall, out of the last three Derby's I've been to, this was by far the best run Derby by a long shot. The improved difference in the overall mood of the event was especially noticeable.

This year, the new scheduling system worked as well as it could for this format. Some other unexpected improvements were the extra scroll in the lounge outside the tournament room, the scroll being available on the televisions in the rooms, and the online access to the scroll, which was very handy if you had a phone with internet access.

I think these improvements are better for everyone and there will be less "fairness" issues as a result.

 

[Big Perm]

Superstar, I agree with you 100%....this is where pool as a whole is really missing the big picture....and I'm not singling out the DCC, but more pool tournaments as a whole....pool needs to instill starting times.....this gives both pros and anyone else in any tournament a chance to keep a schedule, make match-ups, get lunch, and enjoy the tournament as a whole...

Let's say a certain race in a certain category takes most matches about 45 minutes.....simple, you set up a match every hour and you post the times on the brackets....it not only makes it easier for players to set their schedule for the tourney, action, and other events, but it also makes it better for fans to follow their favorites....a little organization could go a long way in making pool much more successfull and fan friendly....

 

[Maniac]

I would suggest in these cases where matches are delayed because your opponent is playing in another event, that the tournament directors, helpers, whatever, take a cell phone number from the one waiting and call them 15 minutes before the match will take place. Dave

This is way too easy and makes too much sense for this to ever occur . Geez, this is pool for crying out loud! Ya gotta have some DRAMA !!!


Seriously, the above solution from 12squared makes perfect sense to me.

Maniac

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Superstar, I agree with you 100%....this is where pool as a whole is really missing the big picture....and I'm not singling out the DCC, but more pool tournaments as a whole....pool needs to instill starting times.....this gives both pros and anyone else in any tournament a chance to keep a schedule, make match-ups, get lunch, and enjoy the tournament as a whole...

Let's say a certain race in a certain category takes most matches about 45 minutes.....simple, you set up a match every hour and you post the times on the brackets....it not only makes it easier for players to set their schedule for the tourney, action, and other events, but it also makes it better for fans to follow their favorites....a little organization could go a long way in making pool much more successfull and fan friendly....

See, this is the integral prolem for the DCC.
It is the one tournament event that DOESN'T have brackets.
It's a random draw after each round.
With that, you really can't start the next round, until the whole previous round is finished.
Years ago, I personally had a 1st round one pocket match take 4.5 hours. That match singlehandedly held up the WHOLE DRAW as it was the last match going in the last 1st round session, as all the other matches in the round had finished after about 2 hours. So everyone was waiting on us.

They couldn't redraw until someone figured out that both of us would rebuy if we lost anyway, and after that, they threw our names into the draw and drew the matches anyway, because neither of us was going to drop out of the tournament without rebuying.

So with that format, you can't have times posted for matches.

That is what you are buying into when you play in the DCC, and not everyone can handle the format. It can be very stressful.
I am talking about when you are already playing in that format, having to deal with more complications as a result extra events impacting the original 3.

Last time i was there, they did have scheduled times for when a session would start. Like the first round draw would be done at 10am, and play would happen at 11am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm dinner break/clear out the day session spectators, 8pm 10pm timeslots for instance, and once the round was over, they would redraw, and continue the next round accordingly.

It was never a situation where people stood around waiting for their names to get called. At least not while i was there.
If it's come to that, that would be ridiculous.

Other then the above distinctions about the DCC i have just made, i completely agree with you.

 

[Big Perm]

Other then the above distinctions about the DCC i have just made, i completely agree with you.

Ahh, thanks for the explanation and appreciate the detail, I have not been to DCC so I'm not familiar with the intricacies....

Couple of thoughts....

Make it double elim - more predictable and easier to bracket/time
Shot clock - I'd say almost all of us have been at a tournament where the whole event has been brought to a screeching halt due to one match - usually, it's slow play on someones part and typically, it's the same person - they need to be put on a clock IMHO and their slow play discussed by the TD.

Again, just my two cents....thanks again for your clarifying post with all the details....based on what you said, it sounds like DCC did a good job scheduling within the bounds of their format.....I get your arguement about favoritism, kinda sucks to play by the rules and be at the whim of a favored player....

 

[JoeyA]

I believe the tournament coordinators should look into renting radio frequency paging systems like those used in restaurants. Charge $5-$10 a day per thingamajob, and I would think they could easily cover their costs, and a good percentage of players would not be caught off guard on their match.

Either that, or they could invest in software that would allow one to automatically text a player if their match is up. I would think we have at least a few people in the pool world that have the knowledge to write some programming code that would do this on an internet-connected computer being used to run the tournament software.

This could even be a revenue stream for the promoter. Charge $10 a player for the ability to be texted when your match is up. Split the money 50/50 with the programmer that writes the code that accomplishes this.

Anyone that can do that? There are all sorts of workable scenarios here. Charge $5 a day for the texting.. Charge $20 for the entire tournament.. etc..etc..etc...

I don't know why I didn't think of these ideas before..One of these is pretty much the solution to the DCC scheduling issues.

Russ

I've been told that cost estimates for programming the existing software so that when a player is on deck, a text message can be sent would be approximately $3,000.

When a player goes on deck the computer could dial the cell phone number and send a text message.

I don't see why there should be a charge for texting. Once the cost for the programming is done, there is no daily or weekly expense in maintaining the software.

The cost for the multiple events are getting higher every year.

I don't want to complain but it sure seems that everything keeps going up.

Last year the entry fees were raised and this year they kept them the same, just for clarity. But you have late fees, high food bills, (unless you are European and in that case everything is cheap here in the U.S.), a one liter bottle of water costing $4. Hell, that's the same price I was paying for a bottle of beer at the concession stands. 24 beers comes out to $96.

The buy back money is going to the all around Master of the Table and wherever else. I have no problem with the promoters making money on this or any other event.

It appears that a few people were missing from this year's event including yourself Russ. Everyone has there reasons for not attending and I'm all good with any of that too.

I personally had a great time but I think costs are going up including the costs for me staying away from my business and family. The ten day tournament thing is losing my interest and I doubt that I will spend ten days at any tournament in the future, unless I am getting paid to attend.

I realize the promoters have to make a profit for events like this to continue but this casino has a captured audience as you are several miles from any business as well as the temptation to do some "gambling" at the casino.

I've seen many attendees carrying ice chest to their rooms and maybe that is another way to lower costs. So far I have refrained from doing that, wanting to support the promoter with the event. Currently, I carry a few energy nutrition bars but that is about it.

JoeyA

 

[spktur]

I wouldn't mind waiting if my opponent was in another competition. I haven't been back to the derby in several years, but the thing that used to chap my ass, was Scott Smith would put your average Joe on the clock and count him out 15 minutes later. The Champions didn't have that problem. He would wait forever and make sure every possible attempt was made to find the said player before a forfeit was issued. I drawed Larry Price in the banks first round several years ago. He doesn't show. I wait 30 minutes after our match is called, go to the scorers desk and they tell me I'm done, Price forfeits. I leave the hotel, get something to eat and 2 hours later Scott Smith is paging me telling me to get my cue, I have to play Larry. He was sleeping in his room and Scott takes away the forfeit. The only decent thing was Greg payed for my re-buy.

This is still going on, they cater to the well known players.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I wouldn't mind waiting if my opponent was in another competition. I haven't been back to the derby in several years, but the thing that used to chap my ass, was Scott Smith would put your average Joe on the clock and count him out 15 minutes later. The Champions didn't have that problem. He would wait forever and make sure every possible attempt was made to find the said player before a forfeit was issued. I drawed Larry Price in the banks first round several years ago. He doesn't show. I wait 30 minutes after our match is called, go to the scorers desk and they tell me I'm done, Price forfeits. I leave the hotel, get something to eat and 2 hours later Scott Smith is paging me telling me to get my cue, I have to play Larry. He was sleeping in his room and Scott takes away the forfeit. The only decent thing was Greg payed for my re-buy.

What he said. If someone's playing - wait. If they're not, forfeit them.
The DCC does a SUPER job managing so many players.

 

[pooljunkie4ever]

Accommodating top players exist in all tournaments. Same thing happen to me, I went to register in a tournament with shorts on, I was told "we have a dress code, no shorts or T". I said fine, sent my wife to the motel, abut 15 min out, to get me some pants. Not to long after I changed into some pants, I saw a top player come in, my wife and I laughed becuase we knew that he couldn wear shorts to the tournament. WRONG!! About 10 minutes later, the tournement director finds me and let me know I can wear shorts.

 

[satman]

man, I know how that feels

I wouldn't mind waiting if my opponent was in another competition. I haven't been back to the derby in several years, but the thing that used to chap my ass, was Scott Smith would put your average Joe on the clock and count him out 15 minutes later. The Champions didn't have that problem. He would wait forever and make sure every possible attempt was made to find the said player before a forfeit was issued. I drawed Larry Price in the banks first round several years ago. He doesn't show. I wait 30 minutes after our match is called, go to the scorers desk and they tell me I'm done, Price forfeits. I leave the hotel, get something to eat and 2 hours later Scott Smith is paging me telling me to get my cue, I have to play Larry. He was sleeping in his room and Scott takes away the forfeit. The only decent thing was Greg payed for my re-buy.

I drew Shannon about 4 years ago in the one pocket, and they refused to put him on the clock. I had towait 45 minutes for him to show up. Draw was at 10 that morning, and matches were to start at the time of the draw. Then they changed start times to 10:30. Shortly after that, they announce they will not put anyone on the clock, until 11. At 11:20 I go to the desk, and they say they are looking for him. At about 10 minutes til 12 he shows up and I was madder than hell. Had no chance of beating anyone at that point.