More elbow dropping nonsense

[JoeW]

Oh yeah. One other thing: Free PJ!

Lou Figueroa
just don't make him
too free

Maybe we need a poll to free PJ. He can tick me off at times but he is missed. Here is hoping his time is short or maybe he can get paroled !

I have learned that adding the piston stoke to the pendulum means that one needs to learn that controlled fall we were talking about. This is not (or should not) be a difficult thing to teach. I have taught several kids how to dive on a spring board and learning the hurdle is not that difficult once they get the idea.

I would think that something similar could be done during pool instruction. Perhaps it is an advanced technique. It could be shown to students as something they might incorporate into their game at a later time. It could be a two stage process. First learn the pendulum stroke then learn to extend ala Dave's "J" stroke analogy as something to work on for some people.

This thread has pretty well demonstrated that the piston stroke is thought to be quite useful by many pro players.

I have long advocated the idea that the ability to play and the ability to teach are unrelated abilities (Grady Mathews is one of the few exceptions). None-the-less, it is encumbant upon teachers to learn to explain the way the game is played and the piston stroke is part of the game.

One can control the stick with a pendulum stroke. One has better control with the "J" stroke.

I have no problem with the idea that the length of time the stick is in contact with the cue ball does not differ for either stroke. I do think (based on my own experience) that the quality of the hit is improved and that pocketing consistency is improved with the "J" stroke. This may be why it is used so pervasively by the pros. It is not about pocketing balls, it is about consistently pocketing balls that wins a match.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

El-drop da bow

 

[dr_dave]

This thread has pretty well demonstrated that the piston stroke is thought to be quite useful by many pro players.

I think this thread has mostly shown that there is a lot of confusion with terminology and that there are many interpretations and types of "elbow drop." It has also shown that people like to talk (and write) more than they like to listen (and read). I admit that I'm guilty of this at times also.

I don't think I've ever seen a pro with a pure "piston stroke," where the cue tip moves in a straight line during the entire stroke (backward and forward, before CB contact and after). Many pros seem to be close to a "J" stroke (pinned-elbow pendulum back-swing and forward stroke into the CB, with elbow-drop piston-like motion during the follow-through after CB contact), but some pros drop their elbow before CB contact, on some shots more than others. Also, some lift the tip after CB contact, especially with follow shots, and some finish with the tip down (with an almost-pendulum-like stroke finish). Some even swoop their stroke on some shots (usually only shots with English), moving the tip sideways during the stroke (before and after CB contact). Some drop their elbow just a little after CB contact on many shots, and some drop their elbow a lot (mostly after CB contact) on most shots.

I think the one thing that can said for sure is that most pros drop their elbow after CB contact, especially with firmer shots. Some seem to do this purposefully; and for others, it just seems like a natural side-effect of the forward momentum of the cue and arm after CB contact.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SUPERSTAR]

El-da drop bow

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dr. Dave-

Did you make up the term "J stroke??" The reason why I asked is I never heard of it before and I thought I knew everything

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Free pj now!!!

Maybe we need a poll to free PJ. He can tick me off at times but he is missed. Here is hoping his time is short or maybe he can get paroled !

Agreed! PJ insn't always "sensitive to people's feelings," but I think he has probably contributed more useful insight and information to this forum over the years than any other single user. The forum is certainly a lesser place without him.

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeW]

Dr. Dave-

Did you make up the term "J stroke??" The reason why I asked is I never heard of it before and I thought I knew everything

Thanks,
Dave

I thought that my brother and I were the only ones who know everything.

Go ahead ask me anything.

Wait for question here ......

My brother knows the answer to that one.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave-

Did you make up the term "J stroke??"

No. I'm not sure where I heard it first, but I think it has been around for a while, even if not commonly used.

The reason why I asked is I never heard of it before and I thought I knew everything

You have much to learn, Grasshopper. :withstupid: :rotflmao1: Just kidding. :grin-square:

I know that you know a lot ... almost as much as PJ!

I miss the PJ-Spidey "interactions."

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeW]

I think the one thing that can said for sure is that most pros drop their elbow after CB contact, especially with firmer shots. Some seem to do this purposefully; and for others, it just seems like a natural side-effect of the forward momentum of the cue and arm after CB contact.

Regards,
Dave

I have no problem with the technical details you mention as there is much truth in what you write. The issue, for me, seems to be that a pure pendulum stroke is not what is used by the pros. For whatever reason, they have learned that some form of interrupted pendulum stroke works to improve their play.

Apparently this is a fact or nearly a fact of professional play. If this is indeed true, instructors have a responsibility to understand and explain the finer points of advanced play to their students.

I suspect that most of the people who seek professional instruction have played pool with some degree of regularity. These people seek to improve their game and instrutors need to consider the idea that while pros may not be teachers they do demonstrate the finer elements of play.

From wht I have learned in a few short days of working with this idea I now think that instructors are bascally teaching by fiat and not based on reality. While it is easier to teach a pure pendulum stroke the reason one seeks instruction is to improve, not to learn a simple technique that yields some improvement.

In theory it may be true that a pendulum stroke is sufficient. However, in reality (empirical observations) there is more to the situation that needs to be explained based on the idea that many pros would not be consistently using this if it did not have some empirical value. We are not in the relm of supertitious behavior as this is a phenomena that is consistent across players and therefore requires explanation of why it is useful.

I jokingly referred to the interrupted pendulum (using a new term here to acknowledge your ideas) as post graduate studies, this should not be the case. In my thinking some of these instructor programs need to return to a study of what is used, why it is used and how it functions to improve the player's ability.

Of course this is just one man's opinion but as you know, people like yourself, Mike Page, and others are the ones who teach teachers (otherwise known as professors).

 

[JoeW]

To be more specific I am suggesting that -- more research is needed -- by those who influence teachers.

 

[dr_dave]

Joe,

I like your ideas and summary. This is good food for thought for all instructors out there.

I still think a pure pendulum stroke can help many people, especially those who have poor or inconsistent timing with their elbow drop, or those who have trouble keeping the cue in the aiming plane consistently with elbow and upper-arm motion, but a pure pendulum stroke is obviously not necessary for top-level play. It may also limit some people's potential. I still think top-level play is possible with a pure pendulum stroke, or any other style of stroke (even McCready's or Bustamante's), as long as it is consistent.

Regards,
Dave

I have no problem with the technical details you mention as there is much truth in what you write. The issue, for me, seems to be that a pure pendulum stroke is not what is used by the pros. For whatever reason, they have learned that some form of interrupted pendulum stroke works to improve their play.

Apparently this is a fact or nearly a fact of professional play. If this is indeed true, instructors have a responsibility to understand and explain the finer points of advanced play to their students.

I suspect that most of the people who seek professional instruction have played pool with some degree of regularity. These people seek to improve their game and instrutors need to consider the idea that while pros may not be teachers they do demonstrate the finer elements of play.

From wht I have learned in a few short days of working with this idea I now think that instructors are bascally teaching by fiat and not based on reality. While it is easier to teach a pure pendulum stroke the reason one seeks instruction is to improve, not to learn a simple technique that yields some improvement.

In theory it may be true that a pendulum stroke is sufficient. However, in reality (empirical observations) there is more to the situation that needs to be explained based on the idea that many pros would not be consistently using this if it did not have some empirical value. We are not in the relm of supertitious behavior as this is a phenomena that is consistent across players and therefore requires explanation of why it is useful.

I jokingly referred to the interrupted pendulum (using a new term here to acknowledge your ideas) as post graduate studies, this should not be the case. In my thinking some of these instructor programs need to return to a study of what is used, why it is used and how it functions to improve the player's ability.

Of course this is just one man's opinion but as you know, people like yourself, Mike Page, and others are the ones who teach teachers (otherwise known as professors).

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[JoeyA]

It's nice to see good discussion taking place in this thread about elbow dropping.

I think the discussion about elbow drop has suddenly taken a turn for the better.

I know I want to explore the J Stroke a bit. For those of you who are proficient with it; if you see me in my travels please feel free to share it with me.

For the record Stan Shuffett www.justcueit.com
teaches that elbow drop is useful on some shots and especially useful with some banking techniques. He acknowledges that many professional players drop their elbow and it can be a good thing. Stan also sometimes teaches to minimize elbow drop but he does not teach his students to eliminate the elbow drop altogether.


Many professional players seek out Stan Shuffett for pool lessons as well as amateurs. I have taken lessons from Stan and played with both he and Landon Shuffett. They are both excellent players. Stan was a school teacher for many years and has excellent communication skills and can play with the best players, although he spends most of his time helping Landon elevate his own great game.

JoeyA

 

[dr_dave]

More good food for thought, especially for non-pro players out there who are far from pro level and are looking for things to try for improvement, IMO.

Regards,
Dave

I really don't understand why everyone is so hung up on what the current pros do. ??? How many of them actually had any type of actual instructor?? They learned by watching others and by playing a LOT. Why would any of them try to learn a pendulum stroke today? For repeatability? Something they already have? There is no net gain for them whatsoever.

The whole idea behing the pendulum stroke is repeatablity. It does that very well. For those that don't have repeatablility, it can help them. For any instructor to say that the pendulum stroke is the ONLY way to play properly, well, I think they are just wrong in that. But, the P stroke IS the fastest way to get repeatablility, and that controls everything else in the game. The instructors responsibility is to get your game up as fast as possible. That stroke is just one of the ways they try and do that.

 

[JoeW]

I really don't understand why everyone is so hung up on what the current pros do. ??? How many of them actually had any type of actual instructor?? They learned by watching others and by playing a LOT. Why would any of them try to learn a pendulum stroke today? For repeatability? Something they already have? There is no net gain for them whatsoever.

The whole idea behing the pendulum stroke is repeatablity. It does that very well. For those that don't have repeatablility, it can help them. For any instructor to say that the pendulum stroke is the ONLY way to play properly, well, I think they are just wrong in that. But, the P stroke IS the fastest way to get repeatablility, and that controls everything else in the game. The instructors responsibility is to get your game up as fast as possible. That stroke is just one of the ways they try and do that.

It is not so much the current crop of pros as it is the idea that so many are using a similar technique that was learned from whatever source. It is the similarity in technique that leads to the idea that it must be a useful addition to the way one plays.

My concern here is not with a pure piston, pendulum, "J" stroke or whatever, but it is with the idea that the pure pendulum is not what is used at the advanced levels of play. Students seek to learn to play as well as possible and that is what instructors need to teach.

Perhaps it is a two phase teaching process: First learn the pendulum and then add the "J" stroke to play your best. This is not what is currently being taught (except as noted by JoeyA above).

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[JoeW]

Think of it in an instrumental learning paradigm in a population of players. The players are taught a, b, c, d.

Over time “b” is dropped by many players because it does not contribute to obtaining the reward.

Some large percentage of players add e, f, and g. (interrupted pendulum stroke)

A few players add “h” and “I”

“H” and “I”, would probably be considered superstitious behavior in the population because only a few players added some idiosyncratic behavior that may or may not have been empirically useful when trying to obtain the reward (consistently high runs of pocketed balls).

E, F, G are hypothesized to be actual contributions to obtaining the reward because so many players, who were not taught e, f, g, found it on their own as a useful addition. If this is true – and it is by no means demonstrated that it is true -- then we need to study the elements of E, F, and G to learn why they contribute to improved play.

Currently, we only know that a high percentage of players have added EFG. We do not know why. It may be taught it may be superstitious but it may have empirical value.

BTW if the players who added H and I had extremely high runs then perhaps these behaviors should be studied.

 

[Russ Chewning]

How do you think they learned? By watching others.

I disagree. I wholeheartedly believe the elbow drop is a natural body function resulting from a powerful stroke. IMHO, any other stroke that does not incorporate an elbow drop is inefficent. When I was playing a bit better than I am now, I could draw 8-9 feet one handed. Please show me this with a pendulum stroke.

The P stroke has been around for a number of years, but hasn't really hit the mainstream until relativaly recently.

It still has not hit the mainstream. No pro on the world stage has had any success using a pure pendulum, with no elbow drop. To put the test to what you're saying about lessons, younger players have been taking lessons for the last ten years, and have had access to pendulum teachers. None of them has made a big splash in professional pool.

All this bunk about "pros shoot that way because that's the way they saw everyone else shooting" is just that. Bunk. Pros do what WORKS for them. That's the way it has always been. That's the way it will always be. If there was any advantage to the pendulum stroke, simplicity or otherwise, a pro player would have discovered it and had success on the world stage. Hasn't happened.

To say that it is inferior to any other stroke just because the majority doesn't use it, is just wrong. Heck, the majority voted for Obama, that doesn't mean it was necessarily a good thing!

We are talking about popularity vs. function. And as far as the stroke is concerned, I will say it point blank. The pendulum is inferior. The human mind thinks in straight lines. It hates curves. That's why curveballs are harder to hit even at slower speeds. The pendulum stroke induces anxiety in the brain because the eyes see the cue tip doing up and down motion, which induces steering. All that needs to happen is for ONE guy to have success on the world stage with a pure pendulum. That will shut up the naysayers.

Until then, I submit that elbow dropping is vastly superior.

The P stroke can do anything the other strokes can do. People just aren't used to it, or have ingrained another way, and it can be very troublesome to change.

If it was such a consistent stroke, I doubt it would be hard to change. It is most definitely NOT hard to change from a pure pendulum to an elbow drop. Why should it be hard the other way. Seems to me a pure pendulum takes more coordination, which defeats most of the arguments out there for it's "simplicity".

Personally, I don't always use the P stroke. I have played too long without it to have it take over completely.

I disagree that this is why you don't use a pure P stroke. I think that your body is making you shoot shots the easier way. It is how our body and learning functions in our brain work. If what our bodies are doing is not accomplishing what we want, the mind/body make subtle corrections, until the action is performed well. This has lead to an almost 100% adoption fo the elbow drop amongst pros.

Because it is what biomechanically works. Not because players wanna shoot like other players. That's a ludicrous idea. Almost universally, top players believe very highly that they do some things better than any other player in the world, and will not change these parts of their games. If the pendulum was AT ALL easier to execute, it would have long ago been the standard.

Russ

 

[pooltchr]

To put the test to what you're saying about lessons, younger players have been taking lessons for the last ten years, and have had access to pendulum teachers. None of them has made a big splash in professional pool.


Russ

Not necessarily. Have you seen Landon's stroke? And while he isn't at the top level, he has the ability to beat just about anyone. Didn't he knock Earl out of a tournament not too long ago?

Steve

 

[Russ Chewning]

Not necessarily. Have you seen Landon's stroke? And while he isn't at the top level, he has the ability to beat just about anyone. Didn't he knock Earl out of a tournament not too long ago?

Steve

Are you saying Landon has no elbow drop? I think I have him on video somewhere, I'll have to check.

Russ