More elbow dropping nonsense

[KMRUNOUT]

Tony Robles?

Perhaps. Now that you mention him, it reminds me that he might be one. I hate to say I stood right next to him and even gave him a ride to the pool hall in Florida ha ha, and can't remember for sure. I'll try to find some videos of him.

Good call,

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I very much like your imagery here. It is an interesting way to think about the piston stroke and I suspect that it adds to the ability to develop this type of stroke.

None-the-less, what I was referring to was the anticipation of muscle use. In a sense, it seems to me that you are referring to a controlled fall. That is the brain anticipates the fall and the guidance of that fall. If you have ever watched an olympic diver on a three meter board you will see that they approach their dive with what is called a hurdle. One leg is raised far above the board. The other leg follows this jump or hurdle and the diver "falls" onto the spring board that propels him into the air. This is a highly controlled fall in which gravity is used to create power but the body muscles guide the fall. Something like this occurs with the controlled fall of the bicep in a psiton stroke. Additional muscle guidance is required for that perfect fall. In most acts of this nature the process is subconscious or we would not be able to do it with any sort of grace and dexterity.

During the stroke the muscles are used to guide the stroke. While the fall is in progress the other muscles in the forearm and the wrist are being readied or are already in use to propel through an interrupted pendulum stroke (if that is used).

One of the interesting ideas that results from this type of thinking is that the piston player is using their muscles in a different way than the pendulum player. There are probably additional muscles and the guidance that would come from a different emphasis that may provide better guidance for the stick.

In any case, the imagery of allowing the upper arm to fall and not "forcing" the movement is quite powerful. When I tried this controlled fall at the table it seemed to result in a more natural piston stroke that was more effective than my prior attempts.

It is interesting how words and imagery can have a significant impact on what is done. The idea of allowing the arm to drop versus forcing the arm to drop results in a much smoother transition and that is what we are all looking for -- that smooth stroke.

Joe,

Thanks for the kind words...I'm glad this image was useful for you. I think your diving analogy is great. I grew up with a pool and diving board, and always tried to max out my height and perfection of form on my dives. I even took a diving course in college (yeah they have that lol). So I know exactly what you mean by a "controlled fall". I would agree that this is very much like what I was talking about. I also think this imagery lends itself nicely toward the general concept of "letting the stroke happen" rather than "making it happen", if that makes any sense to you. You ever read the book "The Inner Game of Tennis"? I HIGHLY recommend it. It is a wonderful analysis of the mental game and how to learn. It is certainly relevant to the concepts we have discussed above.

I imagine there is plenty of muscle action going on in my stroke. I was trying to feel if there was any contraction necessary in my wrist to allow for the dropped-elbow follow-through. I can't really tell. It is possible that the weight of the stick achieves this bend in the wrist that happens at the end of the follow through. Also, I am fairly certain that I slightly tighten my fingers (mainly the middle finger) when I stroke, and do so more for more powerful shots. I know that I *can* do it without tightening my fingers. In fact, when I am trying to demonstrate for a teammate how loosely I grip the cue, I literally let the cue rest on my fingers and don't close them at all, so the cue is kept in place only by its own weight. I can actually do a fairly lively draw shot this way.

Anyway, enjoying the discussion.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

It is obvious that most pros drop their elbow. We don't need proof for that ... it is everywhere. I thought this was already settled.

Now, the important issue is when the drop occurs. Many people seem to think that most pros don't drop their elbow before CB contact. I'm not sure if this is true of not. If it is true, then most pros have a pinned-elbow pendulum stroke into the CB, and then drop their elbow during the follow-through, after the CB is gone (e.g., to create a relaxed-follow-through "J" stroke).

To me, the interesting question (with a non-obvious answer) is: When do most pros drop their elbow, and does it change much for different types of shots. The pre-contact-elbow-drop seems important in power ("stroke") shots and with the break, but I'm curious about most pool shots where power isn't a big factor.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Ok. I was feeling like we hadn't settled the issue of what most pros do because there were people contending the opposite view and no examples had been provided to support that opposite view. (It was said that some champion players wanted to learn the pendulum stroke, and that some used it, but no one ever said who these people are.) But I agree with you it would be futile to claim anything other than that most pros drop their elbow.

As for before or after contact, it is my belief that is is happening just before contact. My observations tell me that it is perhaps 1/2 way through the stroke that the elbow drop begins, and it continues through contact. It seems fairly certain that this is what *I* do, and I think it is what I am observing in many pros. High speed video of some top pros would certainly help out in this regard. You busy during the SBE ha ha?

Lets see if we can come up with some video that answers this question.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

After learning how to imagine and subsequently make that smooth transition to a piston stroke I now wonder if instructors are not completing their students' education.

I learned to use the pendulm stroke in a school a few years ago and it worked well. However, I can now see where allowing (not forcing) the arm to drop appears to result in a smoother stroke and that I have better follow through. I am still of the opinion that if many many pros use it there must be something to it. If only one or two pros used it it would be less meaningful. If a great many pros use it then it must be effective and something that one should learn.

Perhaps it is just the Hawthorne Effect (anything new produces a positive change) but I can "feel" a better stroke using this process. I think that I am being converted to a pendulum - piston stroke.

Steve pointed out that instructors are (as they should be) continully studying their craft. This may be a fundemental issue that warrents further study.

Uh oh...I didn't do it. It was the other guy ;-)

KMRUNOUT

 

[dr_dave]

Dave,

Ok. I was feeling like we hadn't settled the issue of what most pros do because there were people contending the opposite view and no examples had been provided to support that opposite view. (It was said that some champion players wanted to learn the pendulum stroke, and that some used it, but no one ever said who these people are.) But I agree with you it would be futile to claim anything other than that most pros drop their elbow.

Understood.

As for before or after contact, it is my belief that is is happening just before contact. My observations tell me that it is perhaps 1/2 way through the stroke that the elbow drop begins, and it continues through contact. It seems fairly certain that this is what *I* do, and I think it is what I am observing in many pros. High speed video of some top pros would certainly help out in this regard. You busy during the SBE ha ha?

Lets see if we can come up with some video that answers this question.

KMRUNOUT

I would love to film a large number of top pros with my high-speed camera; but, unfortunately, until I retire from my "day job" (university professor), my schedule doesn't permit much travel during the school year.

Regards,
Dave

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I observed in Hall - Strickland video that both players appear to keep their sticks parallel to the table when striking the cue ball above center for max top spin. During these strokes there was no attempt to have the stick hit the table. Perhaps that stroking in a bottle was used to learn this type of stroke. I'll have to try that -- Thanks

Agreed. I learned the elbow drop stroke myself through observation of pros and also the old coke bottle drill. For me too it seemed intuitive that having the tip move parallel to the table was a good thing.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Hmmm Russ. Maybe you shouldn't be on a short bus?

This just brought something to my attention. The BCA Instructor Program has something called SEAL OF APPROVAL for training products and playing aids that help players. It's a "seal of quality" for the pool community.

Here's what makes zero sense (someone explain it to me-- because I'm honestly lost):

When you get the the SEAL OF APPROVAL page on their site, if you scroll down: http://www.bca-pool.com/play/instruction/seal.shtml

... you will see the Buddy Hall Cue Guide. Now, what's confusing is if the BCA Instructor Program teaches the pendulum swing as a part of its core curriculum, then how did this product get a seal of approval??? Meaning, if I get a pendulum lesson and then buy this product--- there's no way I can use it!!!! I need an elbow drop to successfully not touch the sides! Otherwise, the tip dips and bangs into the plastic. So, the BCA gives seals of approvals to products that train people away from what they teach.

Also, that Buddy Hall video discusses "Tuck and rolling." I doubt that's part of the curriculum as well.

Hilarious...I would love to hear the justification for this.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dr. Dave:

What is a "J" stroke?

Dave

 

[12squared]

First, my congratulations to Dr. Dave and JoeyA for their team's super bowl win. There must have been major red beans and rice thrown at the tv and all over the house. Yummy.

I have not read everything written in this thread as there has been too much to read, but I have read much of it. I thought I would bring up one point that may not have been discussed, but maybe one that I missed.

My name is Dave and I am an elbow dropper! And, for much of my pool & billiard playing life I have had a slip-stroke, which I have minimized the last 8 years.

I would like to talk about "feel", not just power gained by the elbow drop. There are a lot of times you need to drag the cueball to create a stop/stun shot from medium to long distance (or a similar touch kind of stroke). I find that an exaggerated follow through helps with the timing of how you must hit the cueball to create the touch necessary to shoot a delicate shot that controls the object ball speed and the cueball. To do this I must drop my elbow.

Although I know, and have been told by Dr. Dave & Bob Jewett that the tip only hits the cueball for a split second so all the rest might not matter, it does to me. For me to generate the speed necessary to execute those type of touch shots and to make sure I accelerate through the cueball for maximum accuracy and control, I have found a long follow through works best for me. I think this could be done keeping the elbow in one place, but I think that would be harder to do with more chance of slapping the ball.

With dropping my elbow after passing through the cueball I am able to be very accurate as to where I hit the cueball. The one area that causes a problem for me is when I need to hit the cueball hard (like a hard draw), I have a tendency to raise the tip up slightly before I strike the cueball resulting in less draw than intended. If I am very conscious and deliberate about it I can over come it, but if left to my natural tendencies, I do not hit the cueball where I intended when hitting very hard - I guess I lift up/drop elbow too soon - but I do hit it hard . This is not an issue for soft and medium strokes.

Why I even mentioned the slip-stroke is because it is typically a very fluid type stroke, not a mechanical one. This is more in line with the exaggerated smooth stroke which ends in an elbow drop.

My feeling on teaching elbow drop or piston/pendulum stroke is that who cares. I think all beginners should learn to keep the elbow still and stroke through the same distance as their back stroke. It makes sense and it's easy to understand for different speeds. But if someone has a natural tendency to follow-through to the point where there elbow drops, that should not be discouraged. It may show that they know how to accelerate through the ball as you should.

Anyway, I don't know if this added anything to the discussion or its just more hot air, but I thought I'd try.

Another Dave in the mix.

 

[ShootingArts]

intuitive yes, true??

Agreed. I learned the elbow drop stroke myself through observation of pros and also the old coke bottle drill. For me too it seemed intuitive that having the tip move parallel to the table was a good thing.

KMRUNOUT

If we focus on the cue tip while practice stroking we want it to move level, it's a dynamic kind of aim like a pointer moving to the exact point on the cue ball. If we focus on the cue ball the exact path of the tip only comes to our attention when it is near the contact point on the cue ball and the path being level or straight matters very little except where it really matters to the shot, near the cue ball.

Hu

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave:

What is a "J" stroke?

Dave

"J" stroke: pendulum (pinned elbow) motion before CB contact, elbow-drop piston (straight-line) motion after CB contact. If you trace the path of the grip hand, it looks like a "J" turned sideways. The curved part is from the pendulum motion, and the flat part is from the straight follow-through.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

With dropping my elbow after passing through the cueball I am able to be very accurate as to where I hit the cueball. The one area that causes a problem for me is when I need to hit the cueball hard (like a hard draw), I have a tendency to raise the tip up slightly before I strike the cueball resulting in less draw than intended. If I am very conscious and deliberate about it I can over come it, but if left to my natural tendencies, I do not hit the cueball where I intended when hitting very hard - I guess I lift up/drop elbow too soon - but I do hit it hard . This is not an issue for soft and medium strokes.

This is because you are dropping your elbow a little earlier with the firmer shots. I know you know this, but others might not. This is a natural tendency because people can more easily generate cue speed if they drop their elbow before CB contact. Also, maybe they are anticipating the longer follow-through, and therefore starting the drop sooner.

My feeling on teaching elbow drop or piston/pendulum stroke is that who cares. I think all beginners should learn to keep the elbow still and stroke through the same distance as their back stroke. It makes sense and it's easy to understand for different speeds. But if someone has a natural tendency to follow-through to the point where there elbow drops, that should not be discouraged. It may show that they know how to accelerate through the ball as you should.

Well stated.

Regards,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5bvRhETn_s

Let's play a game. The game is let's count how many times Mike Sigel drops his elbow in this video.

IMO, the elbow drop thing is something many players use to help control the speed of their stroke on many shots. I was reminded of this watching the Olympics today and watching some of the Curling (or whatever it's called) competition. They do this huge big motion to put the stone, or rock, or iron, on the path they want. The elbow drop is the same deal. It just helps you smooth things out for a particular speed/stroke you want to use.

Lou Figueroa
whadda I know

 

[lfigueroa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5bvRhETn_s

Let's play a game. The game is let's count how many times Mike Sigel drops his elbow in this video.

Oh yeah. One other thing: Free PJ!

Lou Figueroa
just don't make him
too free

 

[cuekev]

After the way I played last night I feel like abandoning the no drop and going to the DARK SIDE. Randy!! Scott!! Drag me back!

 

[Celtic]

Everything I read about you guys is super positive. I was just curious if you "had" to conform to certain techniques.

I took a BCA instruction session from Jerry Breisath about 15 years ago. It was ALL pendulum stroke/don't drop the elbow. The video component of the course was strictly set up with the video camera directly in front of the shooter and was solely aimed at detecting elbow drop on each student and then saying "wow, students did you all see that? Thats alot of elbow drop, naughty naughty!". Suffice to say it was a gigantic waste of my time AND money and did nothing whatsoever to help my game.

If virtually all of the pro's in the world truly tried to commit to changing their game and the pendulum stroke as the BCA attempts to get people to do those pro's would drop off the money ranking lists instantly never to be seen again.

As far as a instructor who wanted to have BCA ceritifcation and yet taught a stroke more along the lines that the majoritty of the pro's use with a follow through that keeps the tip at a more constant vector through the shot? There is no way you would be allowed into that close knit community and have that certification only to teach a stroke that disagrees with the majoritty of what the BCA instructors focus on, the pendulum stroke. As was said, you need to basically get the training and go ahead from the more "advanced"/senior instructors of the BCA like Jerry Breisath and rest assured he is not going to write off on someone as a BCA instructor who teaches something that totally disagrees with his sole focus in his teachings over the last 20 years.

It is the BCA way or the highway, they dont care what actually works or aim to see what type of stroke works best naturally for a student, they teach pendulum stroke and if that is not right for you then thanks for the $100 anyhow.

You are WAY better off taking a lesson from a professional pool player who actually knows what works and wins professional level tournaments. I have learned heaps from professionals in both structured lessons and in unofficial discussions and seeing some stuff they decided to show me. None of what those pro's showed comes close to the restrictive and limited focus on the pendulum stroke that the BCA has decided to harp on.

Pro or BCA instructor? Go for the pro, the BCA instructors are NOT cheap at all and you can find pro's happy to teach you for the same price in their spare time in their home pool halls. They will work with YOUR game instead of trying to get you to conform to the BCA archetype of what "should" be the best stroke but does not seem to pan out in reality on the pro ranks.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I took a BCA instruction session from Jerry Breisath about 15 years ago. It was ALL pendulum stroke/don't drop the elbow. The video component of the course was strictly set up with the video camera directly in front of the shooter and was solely aimed at detecting elbow drop on each student and then saying "wow, students did you all see that? Thats alot of elbow drop, naughty naughty!". Suffice to say it was a gigantic waste of my time AND money and did nothing whatsoever to help my game.

If virtually all of the pro's in the world truly tried to commit to changing their game and the pendulum stroke as the BCA attempts to get people to do those pro's would drop off the money ranking lists instantly never to be seen again.

As far as a instructor who wanted to have BCA ceritifcation and yet taught a stroke more along the lines that the majoritty of the pro's use with a follow through that keeps the tip at a more constant vector through the shot? There is no way you would be allowed into that close knit community and have that certification only to teach a stroke that disagrees with the majoritty of what the BCA instructors focus on, the pendulum stroke. As was said, you need to basically get the training and go ahead from the more "advanced"/senior instructors of the BCA like Jerry Breisath and rest assured he is not going to write off on someone as a BCA instructor who teaches something that totally disagrees with his sole focus in his teachings over the last 20 years.

It is the BCA way or the highway, they dont care what actually works or aim to see what type of stroke works best naturally for a student, they teach pendulum stroke and if that is not right for you then thanks for the $100 anyhow.

You are WAY better off taking a lesson from a professional pool player who actually knows what works and wins professional level tournaments. I have learned heaps from professionals in both structured lessons and in unofficial discussions and seeing some stuff they decided to show me. None of what those pro's showed comes close to the restrictive and limited focus on the pendulum stroke that the BCA has decided to harp on.

Pro or BCA instructor? Go for the pro, the BCA instructors are NOT cheap at all and you can find pro's happy to teach you for the same price in their spare time in their home pool halls. They will work with YOUR game instead of trying to get you to conform to the BCA archetype of what "should" be the best stroke but does not seem to pan out in reality on the pro ranks.

I had a feeling it was that way. I wonder why? Why do none of the pro instructors recognize the drop as a legitimate technique? Calling it "bad" is naive, imo.

I hope that's not true. I hope someone can comment. So, if I believe the drop isn't a bad thing and I go to get my BCA certification--- they'd decline me as an instructor? omg

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Drop da el-bow.

 

[ShootingArts]

I gained a little from this thread

I had a feeling it was that way. I wonder why? Why do none of the pro instructors recognize the drop as a legitimate technique? Calling it "bad" is naive, imo.

I hope that's not true. I hope someone can comment. So, if I believe the drop isn't a bad thing and I go to get my BCA certification--- they'd decline me as an instructor? omg

I will say again that the BCA instructors I have talked to don't insist that everyone goes to a pendulum stroke although they recommend it. Their general theory seems to be that timing an elbow drop and movement in the elbow is complicated, timing wrist and/or hand movement with elbow movement isn't.

Opinions are easy to come by but after thinking about it for the umpteenth time while reading and posting in this thread my opinion is that Neil has the right idea concerning the pendulum. If you use the pendulum, don't sweat trying to have a perfectly level stroke.

Something else, SPF is really SPFF with a "Freeze" at the end of the stroke. That has much the same effect as the long follow through building an interval in between hitting the cue ball and prepping for motions that might be detrimental to a person's stroke.

The pendulum has merit, no question. It just isn't the only show in town.

Hu

 

[SUPERSTAR]

El-bow da drop