Trudeau: Beating a dead horse.
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
SJM,
As usual, you post some of the clearest thinking of any member on this forum. Thanks for framing the discussion so well.
Glendal and Spidey seem to be two of our forum members who were financially harmed by Kevin Trudeau and their anger is fully understood.
Maybe one day I will have an issue with some other party that I cannot resolve the problem and I will want to "yell at the top of my lungs" and have the support of my fellow AZBers. :smile-us-down:
I have no problem with anyone voicing different opinions. My opinion is that I believe our posts reveal the kind of people we are and those posts can influence the decision of others to join AZ Billiards or to simply avoid it.
JoeyA
As usual, you post some of the clearest thinking of any member on this forum. Thanks for framing the discussion so well.
Glendal and Spidey seem to be two of our forum members who were financially harmed by Kevin Trudeau and their anger is fully understood.
Maybe one day I will have an issue with some other party that I cannot resolve the problem and I will want to "yell at the top of my lungs" and have the support of my fellow AZBers. :smile-us-down:
I have no problem with anyone voicing different opinions. My opinion is that I believe our posts reveal the kind of people we are and those posts can influence the decision of others to join AZ Billiards or to simply avoid it.
JoeyA
I think the saddest aspect of the whole IPT experience is not that some people now have bitter, hateful attitudes towards KT, or don't respect what good he did achieve, but that he demonstrated how great this sport COULD be if someone with the proper capital was prepared to invest in it.
To have seen the Promised land and be unable to cross over into it is a hard thing for anyone to bear.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - For a few million a year anyone can own Pro Pool in the USA. That's all there is to it. Unfortunately there are no other entry qualifications except the cash, which is why someone like KT was able to both create and destroy with impunity.
To have seen the Promised land and be unable to cross over into it is a hard thing for anyone to bear.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - For a few million a year anyone can own Pro Pool in the USA. That's all there is to it. Unfortunately there are no other entry qualifications except the cash, which is why someone like KT was able to both create and destroy with impunity.
Glendale
Banned
To tell you the truth, I was skeptical from start to end. I grew up playing pool....wonder why I'm this way :? It actually didn't hurt "me" financially, since I was being staked at the time. I couldn't afford $2000-2500 entry fee, nor would I have put it up if it were mine. I felt bad for my backer. Always had an uneasy feeling about it. I heard of Trudeau's past, and Siegel....nice combo! lol.
I don't lose sleep over it. I don't even think about it, unless I hear anything about Trudeau. So, I really don't care. If his name comes up, I will say how I feel about him as a person. Not beating a dead horse, but I'd be happy to hear him getting locked up for life. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen. What a country! :thumbup:
As far as Chohan goes, that's something that should be left alone. He's serving his time, so no reason to beat that horse.
Joey,
It took a lot of courage for you to ask the questions you've asked in this thread. Regardless of one's stance on the issue, I think you should be commended for that courage.
Somewhat in your defense, you wasn't asking why people on here have the strong negative feelings they do towards those in the billiard industry who have been convicted of criminal activity; it's already pretty obvious why they do. You merely asked why they feel the need to openly express those feelings on these forums. Isn't that correct?
As SJM pointed out, it may be of some service to everyone else when perpetrators are ostracized on here so that recurring instances might be avoided, but is that really why some forum members do it? Or could it be that in this game, one where the art of hustling has long been revered by most of its participants, we will condemn all losers. Let's face it, pool hustling is fraudulent activity, no less so than any other form of trickery used to make fast, easy money; but even in a realm of hustlers, if a hustler gets hustled, he's going to be out for revenge. Could it be that our anger really stems from this aspect of it all? Maybe KT has given us a reason to take an introspective look at ourselves.
I do believe there is something else we can learn from KT, and that is, pool will probably never attract viewers in the numbers that are needed to make it truly successful. KT really did have a good format and he really did believe he could sell it to big corporate sponsors; but he was wrong. Corporate America wasn't buying. And Corporate America wasn't buying because the American public wasn't buying. He gambled with other people's money, and he lost. So we all lost. But damn him, anyway. And damn anyone else who messes up, because we're pretty sure we never do. And damn them we will.
Roger
This horse needs to be beaten till its a ball of jello on the ground.
He is the worst type of scum that walks the earth for more serious reasons than the IPT. Scamming cancer patients out of their money for snake oil cures???? Really???? 30 days is a slap on the wrist....
He is the worst type of scum that walks the earth for more serious reasons than the IPT. Scamming cancer patients out of their money for snake oil cures???? Really???? 30 days is a slap on the wrist....
No one is glorifying Kevin Trudeau but there are a few gleeful posts that reflects poorly on the forum, imo.
Neil,
No one is saying he should be forgiven. He's been convicted of a crime and he is serving his time.
Maybe, the law will find that he has committed a crime on that issue as well and if they do, he should pay for that crime as well.
I guess I just prefer more civil posts even when it comes to people like Kevin Trudeau.
JoeyA
Glendale
Banned
I guess I just prefer more civil posts even when it comes to people like Kevin Trudeau.
JoeyA[/QUOTE]
That's fine and dandy. Everyone has their preference. Personally, I don't think Kevin Trudeau deserves civil posts. K T + Don King + Satan + Stalin + civil posts = fail :banghead:
JoeyA[/QUOTE]
That's fine and dandy. Everyone has their preference. Personally, I don't think Kevin Trudeau deserves civil posts. K T + Don King + Satan + Stalin + civil posts = fail :banghead:
Did you even do any real research about Kevin Trudeau and his past? He has been conning people his ENTIRE life. He makes Bernie Maidoff look like Mother Teresa. After spending time in prison for credit card fraud, he adopted a business model of openly deceiving those that are too stupid or ignorant to know any better, primarily the elderly or uninformed.
Natural Cures? Give me a goddamn break.
The government doesn't want you to know about? LMAO.
There is a reason that the FCC has put a ton of restrictions on him and a reason that EVERY single business venture he pursues ends up in a courtroom for a ton of illegalities and malpractices.
The scam I personally find the most innovative is the one where he charges a few dollars extra or double charges peoples' credit card orders for his many business ventures. If they don't notice it then he gets all of that extra money and if they do notice it then his customer support just says "oh, I'm sorry, must have been a computer clerical error". "I'll reverse the charge". That is the most blatant form of stealing I can think of, yet he gets away with it.
As for the pool aspect, I said it way before the first IPT event ever started, because I actually did some research about his past. I knew that it would end up bad for people and end up in a courtroom. He saw a chance to cash in big on an untapped market and when he realized that nobody wanted to watch pool as a mainstream sport, he cut the rope and made up a story about Stanley Ho who didn't have a clue as to what he was talking about.
The only reason he ever paid anything in that last event was to avoid jailtime.
So I'm supposed to not voice my opinion about a known criminal or a drug dealer, or a child molester? lol, comical.
I also voice opinions about the good people in pool like Mark Griffin, Fatboy, Justin and Chad (TAR), Barry Behrmen (for the most part), Mike Howerton and AZBilliards, Greg and Diamond, Mike Janis, Shannon Daulton and Marge, and all of the players that don't find themselves in trouble all of the time or in a dump debate.
Furthermore, I'll continue to voice my opinions on either side of the spectrum as everyone else should. This is an open forum for pool enthusiasts.
Natural Cures? Give me a goddamn break.
The government doesn't want you to know about? LMAO.
There is a reason that the FCC has put a ton of restrictions on him and a reason that EVERY single business venture he pursues ends up in a courtroom for a ton of illegalities and malpractices.
The scam I personally find the most innovative is the one where he charges a few dollars extra or double charges peoples' credit card orders for his many business ventures. If they don't notice it then he gets all of that extra money and if they do notice it then his customer support just says "oh, I'm sorry, must have been a computer clerical error". "I'll reverse the charge". That is the most blatant form of stealing I can think of, yet he gets away with it.
As for the pool aspect, I said it way before the first IPT event ever started, because I actually did some research about his past. I knew that it would end up bad for people and end up in a courtroom. He saw a chance to cash in big on an untapped market and when he realized that nobody wanted to watch pool as a mainstream sport, he cut the rope and made up a story about Stanley Ho who didn't have a clue as to what he was talking about.
The only reason he ever paid anything in that last event was to avoid jailtime.
So I'm supposed to not voice my opinion about a known criminal or a drug dealer, or a child molester? lol, comical.
I also voice opinions about the good people in pool like Mark Griffin, Fatboy, Justin and Chad (TAR), Barry Behrmen (for the most part), Mike Howerton and AZBilliards, Greg and Diamond, Mike Janis, Shannon Daulton and Marge, and all of the players that don't find themselves in trouble all of the time or in a dump debate.
Furthermore, I'll continue to voice my opinions on either side of the spectrum as everyone else should. This is an open forum for pool enthusiasts.
I guess your talking to JoeyA ?
btw/ i agree with you ! KT deserves the bashing imho.
I think the forum has rules against the way some of your posts are made. Opinions are one thing but just in case you haven't read the rules of the forum:
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
To be included, there will be no ad hominem attacks.[/U] No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not.
All posts will be kept civil.
These rules weren't designed to protect the guilty from criticism. They were put in place to have a modicum of structure for the forum.
It seems that some of your posts cross these lines but you are not alone so don't feel badly.
I'm not a moderator and don't wish to be one, nor am I your keeper. Post on as you see fit.
When the moderators tire of the rules being broken they will enforce them at their discretion.
In the meantime, this forum will be judged by those outside of this circle by what they read in your posts and the rest of our forum members posts.
JoeyA
At the risk of piling on, I still think that, when it comes to pool alone, there are many on this forum who are far too lenient when it comes to Trudeau.
It amazes me how often I read on this forum that Kevin did it right, and I agree that he did a few things right, such as a) giving the players a competitive setting that was preferable to what they were aaccustomed to, b) having a long-term plan in which only the top 100 from each year's play would retain their cards, leaving room for 50 new tour members annually, and c) offering prize funds that offered pro players a chance to earn a good living if his venture into pool was successful.
Still, I find it amazing just how many continue to wear rose colored glasses when it comes to Kevin. While he should be appreciated for taking a financial risk by investing in pool, in the net result he did very little right.
He filled his tour primarily by written application. While some very marginal, unaccomplished, players were accepted, I know of at least one former world champion whose application was rejected. His tournament draws were done in private, and his favored few always seemed to have easy draws in the first of the series of round robins. In one event, he gave Mike Sigel, his most favored player, a bye all the way into the finals and, through his own commentary of the final between Sigel and Reyes, tried to make the TV viewer believe that Reyes' domination of Mike in the final qualified as some kind of shocking upset. He belitted the WPA and pool's other governing bodies as impertinent to his activities, offering no evidence of any kind that he cared about our sport or its future. Oh yeah, and he was delinquent in making payments to players after tournaments had been completed.
All he did was attempt to implement a business model having almost no merit in a way that showed a complete lack of concern for our sport, and he implemented that business model with a lack of both skill and integirty.
Though I know I'm destined to continue reading claims to the contrary, Kevin didn't do it right. His IPT was, at best, the business equivalent of a Broadway play that closed during its first week. When such a play closes, it is not customary to take pride in how great the play was in the handful of performances that it had before closing, but to lament the failure.
Not only did Trudeau fail to further pool's business model, but more than a few in our industry took losses and were left with a reduced appetite for investment in our sport at the pro level. It's a scar that's still healing.
It amazes me how often I read on this forum that Kevin did it right, and I agree that he did a few things right, such as a) giving the players a competitive setting that was preferable to what they were aaccustomed to, b) having a long-term plan in which only the top 100 from each year's play would retain their cards, leaving room for 50 new tour members annually, and c) offering prize funds that offered pro players a chance to earn a good living if his venture into pool was successful.
Still, I find it amazing just how many continue to wear rose colored glasses when it comes to Kevin. While he should be appreciated for taking a financial risk by investing in pool, in the net result he did very little right.
He filled his tour primarily by written application. While some very marginal, unaccomplished, players were accepted, I know of at least one former world champion whose application was rejected. His tournament draws were done in private, and his favored few always seemed to have easy draws in the first of the series of round robins. In one event, he gave Mike Sigel, his most favored player, a bye all the way into the finals and, through his own commentary of the final between Sigel and Reyes, tried to make the TV viewer believe that Reyes' domination of Mike in the final qualified as some kind of shocking upset. He belitted the WPA and pool's other governing bodies as impertinent to his activities, offering no evidence of any kind that he cared about our sport or its future. Oh yeah, and he was delinquent in making payments to players after tournaments had been completed.
All he did was attempt to implement a business model having almost no merit in a way that showed a complete lack of concern for our sport, and he implemented that business model with a lack of both skill and integirty.
Though I know I'm destined to continue reading claims to the contrary, Kevin didn't do it right. His IPT was, at best, the business equivalent of a Broadway play that closed during its first week. When such a play closes, it is not customary to take pride in how great the play was in the handful of performances that it had before closing, but to lament the failure.
Not only did Trudeau fail to further pool's business model, but more than a few in our industry took losses and were left with a reduced appetite for investment in our sport at the pro level. It's a scar that's still healing.
lmao, I don't feel badly. My posts are docile compared to a lot of others, but it's not my business to tell others' how passionate they can get in their opinions towards a subject. I just voice my opinions in the topics I feel a certain way about. A lot of time I interject humor into an otherwise boring thread and for the most part am appreciated for it.
I find that if things are taken too seroiusly then what is the point of living? I believe that most of my humorous posts are recognized for what they are and nothing more. I don't feel I should have to appologize for making humorous mspaint cartoons about drug dealers, child molesters, or convicted criminals like KT.
Likewise you should be able to voice your opinion that KT did a lot for pool, and 99% of the other posters should be able to voice that he's a con artist and well documented criminal to the x degree. You shouldn't feel bad that you are in the minority on this one, just keep voicing your opinion. It's an open forum.
one of the uninformed
Time to reveal my ignorance I suppose. I have been playing pool for 30+ years. Most of that has been in bars, on leagues, or dingy old rooms. I've never played in any formal/recognized tourneys, and had not a clue as to what KT did or did not do for pool. What does that make me??? Well I think that makes me the very sort of pool enthusiast you fear might be appalled by what they read here, and decide never to return. As the self appointed representitive of the "Average Joe Pool Player" let me assure you this will be as likely as "world Peace". Any player that is the least bit interested in furthering his pool education will find this forum to be his "Godsend", it won't matter to him/her that there is a smattering of vulgarity, a clash of personalities, or the occasional, outright, no holds barred, verbal battle. If they have ever entered a forum or chatroom on the net, they will have allready become inured to such antics. What they will find, as I have....is an unmatched wealth of information on their favorite passtime that can be found only here. While I applaud your efforts to maintain civility, your fears concerning new arrivals to this forum are unwarranted IMHO......Dan
Time to reveal my ignorance I suppose. I have been playing pool for 30+ years. Most of that has been in bars, on leagues, or dingy old rooms. I've never played in any formal/recognized tourneys, and had not a clue as to what KT did or did not do for pool. What does that make me??? Well I think that makes me the very sort of pool enthusiast you fear might be appalled by what they read here, and decide never to return. As the self appointed representitive of the "Average Joe Pool Player" let me assure you this will be as likely as "world Peace". Any player that is the least bit interested in furthering his pool education will find this forum to be his "Godsend", it won't matter to him/her that there is a smattering of vulgarity, a clash of personalities, or the occasional, outright, no holds barred, verbal battle. If they have ever entered a forum or chatroom on the net, they will have allready become inured to such antics. What they will find, as I have....is an unmatched wealth of information on their favorite passtime that can be found only here. While I applaud your efforts to maintain civility, your fears concerning new arrivals to this forum are unwarranted IMHO......Dan
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And again, very well said. Red flags went up for me many times, but when I felt for sure, is when KT addrressed all the Players inFlorida and kept talking bout the licensed products and there share in it those products and then said, "what percentage has yet to be worked out"! My first thought was when I was in the corporate world and had I gone into a meeting with a comp plan with that type of comment, the rom would have been empty in about 45 seconds!
It is my opionion that like hime or not, the guy is a salesman, and has gotten way with much many times over, but in this case he woas sold something here too and convinced me that MS is one hell of a salesman himself. He sold KT on the idea that these qualifiers would actually work and fund this TOur idea. Low and behold, who made the most money off this whole scheme?? My gusess, MS!!
I was bashed for saying this years ago, but, it is difficult to hustle anyone who doesn't have a degree of larceny!
Jail time, he got off very light and is a very lucky mam! As for Tony, he made mistakes and is paying the cpmsequemnces of hose bad decisions. I believe people deserve second chances and I wish Tony well when he returns. He will probably have a different perspective, I doubt one will ever say that about a KT! He is probably writing another book right now!
nice post. In my opinion, the posts documenting the wrong doings in the pool world on here do WAY MORE good than harm. It has been seen over and over again that the people firing air barrels, slow paying, no paying, taking advantage of players, etc...., change their actions when these forums put heat on them.
It is also valuable to know that people like KT exist and what their true intentions are as well as their backgrounds. As you said, you had no clue about KT's past until you came on here. Now you are less likely to be trapped into one of his scams outside of the pool world as well.
Don't change the message now !
JoeyA, you are kind of changing the reason for this thread to begin with. here is a quote below from your very first post in the thread that you started. And the above quote talks about the rules of the forum... Why are you jumping back and forth on this issue.
JoeyA Quote: However, I really don't understand the glee and euphoria that is being expressed on this forum for people in our sport who have met up with the law like Kevin Trudeau, Tony Chohan and others. It doesn't make any sense to me for this forum to be a grandstand to make laughter about their punishment and imprisonment.
I see no forum rule that say folks cannot enjoy the incarceration of fellow "pool players".. It is neither obscene, vulgar, sexually oriented, hateful or threatening in the least, and thus is within the bounds of the forum rules. Yes, some of us AZ'ers are enjoying it because KT and Chohan are a couple of losers, and they got what they deserved. I guess you would be laughing more with us if KT had ripped your mother off a few times, or that Tony was selling drugs to your grandchildren..... Sometimes in a world that is not always fair, that people are sometimes, just sometimes, actually held accountable. And the rest of the world like some of us AZ'ers who go about their business with a little integrity and character, and never really get rewarded for the doing the right things day in and day out, that at least we are not these two knuckleheads, and thus for a few minutes of poking fun we feel like maybe by just doing the right things we have actually been rewarded by not sitting in some stinking cell somewhere. It's not much, but heck, we aren't greedy SOB's like KT.
JoeyA, you are kind of changing the reason for this thread to begin with. here is a quote below from your very first post in the thread that you started. And the above quote talks about the rules of the forum... Why are you jumping back and forth on this issue.
JoeyA Quote: However, I really don't understand the glee and euphoria that is being expressed on this forum for people in our sport who have met up with the law like Kevin Trudeau, Tony Chohan and others. It doesn't make any sense to me for this forum to be a grandstand to make laughter about their punishment and imprisonment.
I see no forum rule that say folks cannot enjoy the incarceration of fellow "pool players".. It is neither obscene, vulgar, sexually oriented, hateful or threatening in the least, and thus is within the bounds of the forum rules. Yes, some of us AZ'ers are enjoying it because KT and Chohan are a couple of losers, and they got what they deserved. I guess you would be laughing more with us if KT had ripped your mother off a few times, or that Tony was selling drugs to your grandchildren..... Sometimes in a world that is not always fair, that people are sometimes, just sometimes, actually held accountable. And the rest of the world like some of us AZ'ers who go about their business with a little integrity and character, and never really get rewarded for the doing the right things day in and day out, that at least we are not these two knuckleheads, and thus for a few minutes of poking fun we feel like maybe by just doing the right things we have actually been rewarded by not sitting in some stinking cell somewhere. It's not much, but heck, we aren't greedy SOB's like KT.
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