i've seen a lot of production cues and imo unless you're shelling out a decent amount of cash for a high end predator or something you're better off getting a lucasi
Production cues quaility
- Thread starter measureman
- Start date
It's been reported many times on here that Predator and Lucasi cues are made in the same facility.
I think that there are other production brands which hold up very well as well.
McDermott
Viking
Pechauer
Fury
Blaze
Sterling
5280
to name a few.
i've hit with several really nice vikings but a few really bad ones too. i wouldn't buy one i couldn't hit with first. fury and blaze are basically the same company and are actually pretty uniformed. they play decent from cue to cue. imo dollar for dollar a used joss or a lucasi are the best bang for the buck.
for some reason people in the states seem to shy away from mezz cues but they're better than all the aforementioned production cues imo. the attachments alone make it worth it.
If anybody from the Denver area would like to stop by the Ultimate Electronics store on West Colfax across from Colorado Mills Mall and check out their cues please be my guest. I will even meet you there.
Now after reading everyone's comments maybe the cues have not been handled properly,Maybe it has something to do with weather conditions i don't know. But the cues are not right what ever the reason.
And yes Manwon i think you are doubting what i saw because you refuse to believe that imports may be as good as made in USA cues. I tried to buy a McDermott awhile back from their regular line of cues and found out that most of the cue is made in China and finished here.Now they only admitted it after i e-mailed them and asked the question and then they sugar coated it with well it's made to our standards. Well it's either made here or it isn't.And their web site said it was proudly made in the USA.
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I wouldn't say that Mezz cues are "better" than all the cues I mentioned BUT I will say that Mezz has been making high quality cues as long or longer than all the other cue makers out there.
A lot of people don't realize that Mezz was the factory that first made all of the Adams and related brands.
Kaz Miki is the second generation to make Mezz cues and he is totally dedicated to the art, craft and science of cue making.
My point was and is though is that there are a lot of good production cues out there that hold up very well in the field.
These days it's pretty difficult to buy a "bad" cue. Most production cues, especially those from name brands, are decent cue. Yeah there is the occasional dud and the occasional wonder-cue in there but the average is pretty damn good if you ask me.
This is coming from a guy who has been selling cues since he was 20 and I am 42 now. I have hauled cues around the world to more tournaments than I can even remember.
I do find it funny that most people on here have no clue about who really makes what and therefore I see funny comments from one person that go like this - "xxx-brand sucks and you should buy yyy-brand because it's way better" - when in fact both brands come off the same line and are made exactly the same way.
People tend to take their anecdotal stories - such as the one that started this thread - and project that onto the whole industry. It's a logical fallacy to assume that isolated incidents translate into the state of the world.
If so then when a person says "I got a Fury and it's PERFECT" then we should just all assume that all Fury cues are perfect. We don't.
Production simply means a standardized way of producing something. The actual methods used vary from company to company.
Ernie Gutierrez is a "production" cue maker. There I said it.
What I mean is that according to his own interview he set up his shop so that there is a dedicated machine for every task that he doesn't need to change each time he makes a cue. Thus, he can make cues that are consistently built to the specifications he feels make a good cue.
There are plenty of, and I'd go out on a limb and say the majority of, cue makers who build cues which are a little different to a lot different from cue to cue. For whatever reasons, maybe they only have one lathe, maybe they are constantly experimenting, maybe they take any customer's wish......the point being that a cue is an individual item which reacts with the world in it's own way regardless of how much or how little care the maker puts into the construction. It's the average that counts.
You can take five Fury cues and put them in a rack and one of them might have the rings pop while the other four remain pristine their whole life.
At a certain point the cue maker looks at the wood and just makes their best guess as to how good a piece it's going to be. Once you have cut it and dried it and let it rest and repeated this process enough times you have gotten it down to the point where you can't see or feel anything more than what's in your hands. If for some reason there is a fossilized bug in the heart of that piece you won't know it until later when the freezing cold of a Wisconsin winter cracks that wood around the little bug and the next day the cue will have a buzz in it.
Reputable cue makers and dealers will simply take the cue back and make a new one or send out a new one and chalk it up to the averages.
Lots of things are from China and are just fine. most of what we have is from China-look at the numbers the trade deficate, they are getting all the business. For the price of one dining chair made in N. Carlonia you can get a set of 10 chairs that are the<almost> same built in China. In my office my desk is made in America but it costs 6-figures, i'm very belssed to have the ability to buy such nice things, but thats only recent as 75% of my life I had no choice-because I had no $$$. The rules the Govt has impossed on American businesses has played right into the hands of China and we as America's are losing, because of those rules. China also the country we owe the most $$ to as well, they have done one heck of a job dismanteling America. Its a long slow process so it dosent seem as painful, look back 30 years ago-we were different, we had standards now were all fat.
The nice thing is its possible to but a great cue made right here in America nad not lose a penny on it, but buy a import cue and you lose 1/3 the value most of the time. Its a matter of buying right and knowing the market.
Ultimate Electronics selling cues??? Sounds like they got a deal or bought out a failed store or chain and cues ended up in the deal, and wernt cared for correctly. Dont matter where they came from-if they were abused they would go bad no matter where their from...
best of luck,
Eric
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I bought 2 OB1 shafts for 2 McDermotts and was told by AZ Marketplace ahead of time that there was a good chance the joints wouldn't line up too well. 1 shaft isn't even close. It's probably a 1/2 mm off to one side. The other is better aligned, but the butt is much larger in diameter. They both hit fine. I shoot better with the 'crooked' stick because it compensates for my non-repeatable stroke.
For some brands, you can send your cue to them and they will match it up with one of their shafts that fits the best. I've even had McDermott I-shafts not align well with McDermott cues, it's always best to send it in if you can, even staying with the same brand doesn't mean much.
I tried to buy a McDermott awhile back from their regular line of cues and found out that most of the cue is made in China and finished here.Now they only admitted it after i e-mailed them and asked the question and then they sugar coated it with well it's made to our standards. Well it's either made here or it isn't.And their web site said it was proudly made in the USA.
Which Line / Model number cue are you speaking of that is made in China?
Did it have full warranty?
I will wait for your reply.
Partner, I am not doubting what you said at all, however, I do doubt your knowledge concerning cues in general and my opinion is based on comments you have made on this forum. I could be wrong, you may know a great deal more than I give you credit for but honestly I do not think that is case, I know there is certainly a learning curve for all of us.
Thanks
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I would also have to question that statement. They seem to have invested a lot in manufacturing here in the USA according to this press release from 3 years ago:
http://mcdermottcue.com/pressrelease206growth.asp
They also state that, "As always, Mcdermott cues are made in the USA", on this page:
http://mcdermottcue.com/xperformance.asp
I don't want to come in here and stir up trouble or anything, but honestly I could not find any information regarding any McDermott cues made anywhere but in Wisconsin. In fact, if they were being made outside the USA, they would be in some hot water with the FTC. The rules on Made in USA (express or implied) labeling are pretty well described here:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm
The only thing I found, with about 30 minutes of searching, was where it was said (back in 2001) that they would import cues, but not under the McDermott brand.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...cAaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XjAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6279,3319357
Perhaps their Star and Lucky line of cues fall into this catagory, since they are under a different "brand name", but I don't know. I could not find anything that would make me think they are not made in the USA. My wife bought a Star cue a few months ago and it has the full lifetime warranty that every McDermott has.
RE: Online General Inquiry
From: bruce tucker (measureman47@hotmail.com)
Sent: Tue 6/09/09 4:03 PM
To: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
So, no decals correct? Imported from where? I saw nothing on your web site that said that. I ordered it thinking it was American made. This is not good i think i will cancel my order.
> From: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
> To: measureman47@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: Online General Inquiry
> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:20:10 -0500
>
> The M81B Grande is imported. The points are overlaid over Maple and Paduak
> wood. That is to say that the forearm is Maple with Paduak inlays and then
> the black part is overlaid on top of these materials.
>
> Jayme Cernicka
> Customer Service Manager
> McDermott Cue
> 1-800-666-2283 x 121
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: measureman47@hotmail.com [mailto:measureman47@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:23 PM
> To: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
> Subject: Online General Inquiry
>
> One more question.Are the points on the m81b Grande real wood or decals ?
>
> Besides the 2 imports you sell is the regular line (m81b)made in the U.S ?
>
Here you go Mr. Manwon. I may not know as much as you about pool cues but i know what McDermott told me.Also they no longer sell this cue just to be fair i checked their web site.
From: bruce tucker (measureman47@hotmail.com)
Sent: Tue 6/09/09 4:03 PM
To: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
So, no decals correct? Imported from where? I saw nothing on your web site that said that. I ordered it thinking it was American made. This is not good i think i will cancel my order.
> From: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
> To: measureman47@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: Online General Inquiry
> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:20:10 -0500
>
> The M81B Grande is imported. The points are overlaid over Maple and Paduak
> wood. That is to say that the forearm is Maple with Paduak inlays and then
> the black part is overlaid on top of these materials.
>
> Jayme Cernicka
> Customer Service Manager
> McDermott Cue
> 1-800-666-2283 x 121
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: measureman47@hotmail.com [mailto:measureman47@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:23 PM
> To: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
> Subject: Online General Inquiry
>
> One more question.Are the points on the m81b Grande real wood or decals ?
>
> Besides the 2 imports you sell is the regular line (m81b)made in the U.S ?
>
Here you go Mr. Manwon. I may not know as much as you about pool cues but i know what McDermott told me.Also they no longer sell this cue just to be fair i checked their web site.
RE: Online General Inquiry
From: bruce tucker (measureman47@hotmail.com)
Sent: Wed 6/10/09 8:38 AM
To: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
First of all i wanted to buy an American made cue. Second i find that your web site should state that it is an import. I read all the pages on your site and watched the video and thought i was getting a cue made at your domestic plant and then to find out it is an import and thinking it was made here just is not right.So i have canceled my order and am getting a Joss which is made in Maryland ,USA
"Why does it matter if it’s imported or not? If I didn’t tell you, I doubt you would tell the difference after you get it."
It matters because some people try to buy US produced products and also there probably would have been a made in China label somewhere on it.
Just be honest on your site as to where it was made. Had i known that from the beginning i would have picked a differant model but now i can not do any business with you.
Bruce
From: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
To: measureman47@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Online General Inquiry
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:20:38 -0500
Why does it matter if it’s imported or not? If I didn’t tell you, I doubt you would tell the difference after you get it. We have them made to the same specifications as the cues we make here but are able to take advantage of lower labor costs.
If it’s that important to you to have a 100% US made cue I would suggest something in our Professional Series of cues or higher. These are all made at our Wisconsin facility.
Jayme Cernicka
Customer Service Manager
How do you like this attitude in this e-mail.I don't think she liked getting found out.
From: bruce tucker (measureman47@hotmail.com)
Sent: Wed 6/10/09 8:38 AM
To: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
First of all i wanted to buy an American made cue. Second i find that your web site should state that it is an import. I read all the pages on your site and watched the video and thought i was getting a cue made at your domestic plant and then to find out it is an import and thinking it was made here just is not right.So i have canceled my order and am getting a Joss which is made in Maryland ,USA
"Why does it matter if it’s imported or not? If I didn’t tell you, I doubt you would tell the difference after you get it."
It matters because some people try to buy US produced products and also there probably would have been a made in China label somewhere on it.
Just be honest on your site as to where it was made. Had i known that from the beginning i would have picked a differant model but now i can not do any business with you.
Bruce
From: jcernicka@mcdermottcue.com
To: measureman47@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Online General Inquiry
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:20:38 -0500
Why does it matter if it’s imported or not? If I didn’t tell you, I doubt you would tell the difference after you get it. We have them made to the same specifications as the cues we make here but are able to take advantage of lower labor costs.
If it’s that important to you to have a 100% US made cue I would suggest something in our Professional Series of cues or higher. These are all made at our Wisconsin facility.
Jayme Cernicka
Customer Service Manager
How do you like this attitude in this e-mail.I don't think she liked getting found out.
If I was gonna buy one . . .
McDermott still has the most consistent hitting, and best quality production cue (with a real warranty) out there. They have made excellent cues at affordable prices for 30+ years . . . I don't think there's anyone close over that long a period for mass produced cues . . . Meucci and most of the others have had major SUCK-fests during the last decade . . . piss poor quality . . . McD is also the only production cue company that has had their cues go up in value (across the majority of the line) year-after-year. That does not happen with the others. . . and I am talking BIG volume cue builders . . . not to take away from Dan Janes and many other quality builders who build quite a few cues, but they are not the volume builders on a scale like Cuetec, Lucasi, Players, etc. Meucci is a prime example . . . they had an opportunity to re-build their reputation - instead they pretty much destroyed it. A friend bought one two years ago new . . . within two days after he had it one of the inlays fell out of the cue. Incredible . . . $500 with a new black dot shaft - very poor.
McDermott still has the most consistent hitting, and best quality production cue (with a real warranty) out there. They have made excellent cues at affordable prices for 30+ years . . . I don't think there's anyone close over that long a period for mass produced cues . . . Meucci and most of the others have had major SUCK-fests during the last decade . . . piss poor quality . . . McD is also the only production cue company that has had their cues go up in value (across the majority of the line) year-after-year. That does not happen with the others. . . and I am talking BIG volume cue builders . . . not to take away from Dan Janes and many other quality builders who build quite a few cues, but they are not the volume builders on a scale like Cuetec, Lucasi, Players, etc. Meucci is a prime example . . . they had an opportunity to re-build their reputation - instead they pretty much destroyed it. A friend bought one two years ago new . . . within two days after he had it one of the inlays fell out of the cue. Incredible . . . $500 with a new black dot shaft - very poor.
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Poor customer service person . . .
The "Star" Series are made overseas . . . anything else is domestically made in Wisonsin . . . you get what you pay for - so I wouldn't expect a $100 MSRP cue to be made in the USA.
The "Star" Series are made overseas . . . anything else is domestically made in Wisonsin . . . you get what you pay for - so I wouldn't expect a $100 MSRP cue to be made in the USA.
I also think the attitude of the individual is in poor taste, but the cue is question is fully warranted against all defects no matter where it was made, unlike the Star, and Lucky series cues. I can also say that I have never had a major issue selling McDermott cues or with McDermott if an issue comes up. I personally handle all issues for my customers if the cue was purchased from me. In the end all I can say is that McDermott stands behind their warranty unlike others I have done business with.
The point being is that they did not state that it was made in China. It very well could have been just as good as the cues they make here and I'm sure that they would stand behind it. But at that time i really wanted to buy American made and thought that is what i was getting. I felt deceived and got a bad feeling from the whole episode and bought from a different manufacturer. And i am in no way knocking the McDermott product, just their business practice. Oh one more thing this cue had an MSRP of $287.00 when i found a web site that would sell it for $190.00 shipped i got suspicious and E- Mailed McDermott. At least they were honest in admitting it was an import.
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First off, I love my McDermott cues (this houshold has 3 of them plus one Star) and they have a good reputation of standing behind their products. Although I have not needed to send a cue in for anything yet, I have not heard any horror stories of dealing with them.
About this I can only say it that they are required by law to disclose the country or origin of imports. It also considered fraud if they even imply that a product is made in America if it is actually an import. I am not accusing anyone of anything here, just pointing out that fact. The Federal Trade Commision really frowns on that kind of behavior.
If it were true, I don't think it would hurt their reputation for quality cues if they would come out and label their low end cues as being made in China, or wherever. They still sell screw on and slip on tips for Christ sakes. If that doesn't hurt their higher end cue sales then nothing will.
On last thing to point out to measureman. The MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) is typically about 30% lower than the MSRP on nearly all cues. Look at just about every online retailer and you will see MSRP and a selling price much lower on just about every production cue they have.
About this I can only say it that they are required by law to disclose the country or origin of imports. It also considered fraud if they even imply that a product is made in America if it is actually an import. I am not accusing anyone of anything here, just pointing out that fact. The Federal Trade Commision really frowns on that kind of behavior.
If it were true, I don't think it would hurt their reputation for quality cues if they would come out and label their low end cues as being made in China, or wherever. They still sell screw on and slip on tips for Christ sakes. If that doesn't hurt their higher end cue sales then nothing will.
On last thing to point out to measureman. The MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) is typically about 30% lower than the MSRP on nearly all cues. Look at just about every online retailer and you will see MSRP and a selling price much lower on just about every production cue they have.
I saw this cue in a local store for $329 then checked McD's web site and the MSRP was $287 then found that most web sites had it for $231 and then found a site that would sell it for $190. And it was the March 2009 cue of the month. Anyway having seen it in person the cue was stunning. Great wood and finish. The wrap was a little too rough for me but that could have been fixed. But I'll say it again it was not disclosed on their web site as being made in China that is what turned me off. And truth be told i still wish i hadn't found out because i still like the way it looks and it probably would have turned out to be a good cue. Sometimes the things we don't know we are better off not knowing.And still today if i found someone locally selling that model at a good price and the cue was in good shape i might just buy it.
I remember when that all went down, when you were cue shopping. I'm glad McD was on the square on the phone, not all facts on all products make it on the web,print,package or on the product. As a biz man I know this first hand, make one change and you end up needing to change 5 things-things slip through the cracks. And the FTC realizes this, trust me i KNOW, UGGGHHH
Main thing is your happy with the cue you bought and your playing. There is so much to know about cues-nobody knows it all. I been around cues for 25 years and still learn-right here on AZ, I also see alot of mis-conceptions people have. There is dirt in every thing in life-so goes the cue biz. There are number of things that would get me HOT water if I mentioned them anywhere(people tell me something in trust-I keep their trust). Everything isnt as it appears-but at the end of the day if your playing and having fun thats all that counts.
take care buddy,
Eric