taking advantage of a handicap system

[jdxprs]

not talking about sandbagging. im talking about ways to take advantage of skill level matchups.

i've heard your odds of winning are increased if you play 1 skill level up, or 2 skill levels down. anyone ever try this system?

i've found that skill level 4 players in a 2-7 system can be the toughest to deal with. in many cases, they are still newer players who could be rated higher. in most cases i prefer to use a 3 or a 6 against 4's. the 6 gives up two racks, but in defensive play alone, the 6 should be able to overcome 2 racks. With the 3, i find that most of the time 4's tend to think they are much better and forget to be patient. 3 sneaks up on them and gets 1 of the first 2 racks and now all the pressure is on the 4.

 

[dr9ball]

not talking about sandbagging. im talking about ways to take advantage of skill level matchups.

i've heard your odds of winning are increased if you play 1 skill level up, or 2 skill levels down. anyone ever try this system? snipped...

I have used the following successfully matching up players in APA

SL 2 plays SL 2 or 3
SL 3 plays SL 2, 3 or 4
SL 4 plays SL 3,4,5 (if they have good strategy and ability to play safe, I"ll throw them on a 7)
SL 5 plays SL 4,5,6 (if very strong i'll put them on a 7)
SL 6 plays SL 5,6, or 7 (if they are good with safteys) I'll play them on a 4
SL 7 plays SL 5, 6, or 7

 

[jdxprs]

I have used the following successfully matching up players in APA

SL 2 plays SL 2 or 3
SL 3 plays SL 2, 3 or 4
SL 4 plays SL 3,4,5 (if they have good strategy and ability to play safe, I"ll throw them on a 7)
SL 5 plays SL 4,5,6 (if very strong i'll put them on a 7)
SL 6 plays SL 5,6, or 7 (if they are good with safteys) I'll play them on a 4
SL 7 plays SL 5, 6, or 7

playing a 5 is tough for a 7 imo. they only need 3 racks and it isnt unusual for them to catch a break and run and/or run out a dry break.

 

[dr9ball]

playing a 5 is tough for a 7 imo. they only need 3 racks and it isnt unusual for them to catch a break and run and/or run out a dry break.

I agree it can be tough, particularly if it's a good 5. However a 5-3 race is still better in my book than a 5-2 race against a 4.

 

[JDB]

I have used the following successfully matching up players in APA

SL 2 plays SL 2 or 3
SL 3 plays SL 2, 3 or 4
SL 4 plays SL 3,4,5 (if they have good strategy and ability to play safe, I"ll throw them on a 7)
SL 5 plays SL 4,5,6 (if very strong i'll put them on a 7)
SL 6 plays SL 5,6, or 7 (if they are good with safteys) I'll play them on a 4
SL 7 plays SL 5, 6, or 7

I pretty much agree except for the SL 7. As far as I am concerned, you can put any level (2 - 6) and the SL 7 should win at least 90% or more of the time. Nine-Ball is entirely different but for 8 ball I feel confident that I will win most of my matchines against any level under SL 7 because they all have weaknesses as long as you are patient.

The only caveat is that there are some stronger 6's that I consider to be closer to 7's where it makes it much tougher on the 7. However, I feel pretty confident that if I can beat someone in a race to 5, I should be able to get to 5 before they reach 4. It doesn't alway work, but it works the majority of the time.

 

[CreeDo]

Honestly I think the best thing you can do is match your best with their best, your 2nd best with their 2nd best, and so on. Which is probably the goal of the system. If your team is overall better, you will win the majority of the matchups that evening without overthinking it.

Ultimately a boring win between even players counts the same as a crafty win from a underrated player who snuck under the radar. And the boring win is gonna happen more often than an attempt to steal one by sending in a player who is 2 levels lower than his opponent.

As a 7 the only thing I feared was other 7's. 6,5 didn't remotely bother me. I lost to a 3 once due to a brutal scratch on the 8. The other team's 7 is NOT sweating it if you pit him against someone one or two levels lower. If you wanna steal a win, throw your 7 at him if you got one and your 2/3 if not.

 

[Big_H515]

Maybe my old team captain will chime in and give you his thoughts. I would think we did well in handicap management and matchups weekly and at nationals.

 

[scottshot230]

i was a 7 when i played apa and the one thing i noticed was the strength difference in 7's.most 7's i played didnt stand a chance against me in a even race.i always thought they should raise the handicap to 9 like in 9-ball.a strong 7 in eight ball should never lose a race to a low ranking player for the simple fact the other player has to pocket 8 balls before the 7.even if the seven gets out of shape on a shot a little defense is all that is needed.

 

[jdxprs]

i was a 7 when i played apa and the one thing i noticed was the strength difference in 7's.most 7's i played didnt stand a chance against me in a even race.i always thought they should raise the handicap to 9 like in 9-ball.a strong 7 in eight ball should never lose a race to a low ranking player for the simple fact the other player has to pocket 8 balls before the 7.even if the seven gets out of shape on a shot a little defense is all that is needed.

your theory is great until a 4 or 5 wins the flip (apa flips for break in my area) and break and runs the first rack.

 

[hdgis1]

Interesting stuff...

 

[Big Perm]

Actually, sandbagging plays a role here as well....

If you are playing against a strong team with that "strong 4 or 5" that plays more like a 6 or a 7, this is the match I dump....if they put him up and I have the choice of whom to match up, I go with my 2.....you have to sell this to your teammate early, tell them to be fearless and just go for any shot....odds are low to win, but with their handicap, you are taking a knife to a gun fight anyway....

Next, your best method of match-up is to put your strong 4 up against their weak 4, or strong 5 against their weak 5, and so on.....as you know, some people of a certain rank are on thier way up, and others are barely making the grade.....use that to your advantage....

Additionally, just pay attention to the nuances of each team and use that to your advantage the second time you play them.....some guys play worse when they have to play a lady....some people are intimidated by a 7....also, get to know your team....some people like to play first and play better that way.....others loosen up and play better later that night, after a beer or two.....some hate playing better players, and some always want a challenge.....try to find the weaknesses of the other team and use the strengths of your own....

I coached apa for quite some time....much of this worked well for me....but take free advice for what it's worth :grin:

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Without a doubt, an SL4 is the best handicap to put up against an SL7 due to it being a 5-2 race. Especially if that SL4 can shoot well in their handicap. It should be nearly an automatic win if they shoot like an SL5 but haven't been moved up yet.

A smart SL3 can make it tough too. They can sometimes get on a 5 or even 6 ball run. If they are smart, they can try and control the table such as block pockets, tie up balls etcetera. Drag it out.

That said, all the above only works on run & gun SL7's who don't have a brain and are super aggressive shooting themselves in the foot in clustered up racks.

 

[theycallmerock]

When you are talking about the average S/L 7 who usually only plays APA pool, then yes an S/L 4 very well be the most dangerous play. However, I have seen an APA 7 that shoots about a B- speed and I have seen an APA 7 in the same league that shoots shortstop speed. Those two players in an even race is a joke. A shortstop speed player against even an APA 4 that shoots like an APA 6 is still a joke. So when you are talking about 7s it depends greatly on the quality of 7.

Sandbagging aside, Ive found that what works best in APA is having the greatest amount of flexibility at your disposal. As far as strength in a team, it depends on where you play. Ive played in 4 different APA leagues across the country and all 4 were drastically different. In one, you better have a team of 8 strong for their handicap to even have a chance to advance. In other, you can be carried by 1 high ranked player and two others strong for their handicap. But the number of different combinations you can create with the 8 players on your teams allows you to mix and match handicaps against your opponents to try to create the best 3 matchups you can to get your 3 wins to win an APA match.

 

[doitforthegame]

i was a 7 when i played apa and the one thing i noticed was the strength difference in 7's.most 7's i played didnt stand a chance against me in a even race.i always thought they should raise the handicap to 9 like in 9-ball.a strong 7 in eight ball should never lose a race to a low ranking player for the simple fact the other player has to pocket 8 balls before the 7.even if the seven gets out of shape on a shot a little defense is all that is needed.

Scott- I agree. I always felt the same. I also think they should raise the team points. They have been complaining that they aren't growing. This could be the reason.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Scott- I agree. I always felt the same. I also think they should raise the team points. They have been complaining that they aren't growing. This could be the reason.

The 23 rule is in place to force teams to eventually break up as well as to prevent teams from stacking 7's and 6's (by the way, that is an admission by the APA that their handicap system does not work).

 

[mullyman]

How do the levels work? If you get on a few weeks losing streak will your handicap go down.....or up as the case may be?
MULLY

 

[juggler314]

I pretty much agree except for the SL 7. As far as I am concerned, you can put any level (2 - 6) and the SL 7 should win at least 90% or more of the time. Nine-Ball is entirely different but for 8 ball I feel confident that I will win most of my matchines against any level under SL 7 because they all have weaknesses as long as you are patient.

The only caveat is that there are some stronger 6's that I consider to be closer to 7's where it makes it much tougher on the 7. However, I feel pretty confident that if I can beat someone in a race to 5, I should be able to get to 5 before they reach 4. It doesn't alway work, but it works the majority of the time.

a 90% win percentage is absurd except for perhaps the top 5 APA 7's nationwide. The *best* person in the NYC area has an 82.1% overall, 83.9% 8 ball and only 68.1% 9 ball. So even just looking at 8ball his win percentage is under 90%. This is an A+/Open speed player, who is generally in the top 16 for the national rankings in vegas. If you are winning over 90% of your matches it means you are hand picking matches you can win *or* you truly are one of the top 5 or 6 players in the country in the APA. (or perhaps you have that win percentage, but never go to vegas because you know you'd be drummed out so you just play in local leagues and help get your team to vegas and rake in money at the mini-manias?)

 

[juggler314]

i was a 7 when i played apa and the one thing i noticed was the strength difference in 7's.most 7's i played didnt stand a chance against me in a even race.i always thought they should raise the handicap to 9 like in 9-ball.a strong 7 in eight ball should never lose a race to a low ranking player for the simple fact the other player has to pocket 8 balls before the 7.even if the seven gets out of shape on a shot a little defense is all that is needed.

agreed, I'm a "normal" 7, I win around 60% of my matches. I shudder when I am forced to play myself blind first, because, unless the other team is brain dead they are going to play their strongest 4 against me. the 7-4 match up is the worst match up in the APA. A strong 4 who is on the way to being a 5 should be able to get out on any open fairly easy table. That means that the 7 really can't make any mistakes at all, as any miss potentially is a run out by the 4. To say nothing of the luck factor (4 wins lag, makes an eight on break, 7 makes an amazing 8 ball shot after bad postion, cue goes 4 rails, caroms off a ball thoroughly blocking a pocket and scratches anyway, etc etc).

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

I agree with everyone else's assessment for a higher ranked player (6+) playing a SL4 is the most brutal matchup. (Keep in mind, I only play 9ball so Im talking about my general knowledge captaining APA 9ball teams for years)... Here's my general matchup guidelines.. (obviously adjustable based on the individual players involved)

a 6-7 - best matchups = SL3, dead even or 1 up. Will match a 6 against a 7, but generally will avoid matching my higher level players, one down.

a high 4, or 5 - best matchups = high 4 is getting other teams highest & best player (SL7 or strong 6) 5 is also getting SL7 with specific instruction to play safe. Happy with dead even matchups for either player too. Avoid 1 down matches.

3, weak 4- best matchups = one up. specifically avoid two ups, gets mental for the 3 or weak 4 to play two levels up. they tend to think they are over matched and get nervous.. strangley Ive found matching a weak 4 or 3 - 3 or more skills levels up (throwing off) works better because they believe they are expected to lose and they play loose, put no pressure on themselves. Dead even's dont seem to work well here, but one down matchups work ok, these players seem to believe they should win against a 1 down and play confidently against a 1 down. Strange, but true.

2- throw 'em out there... hold my breath. lol.

 

[juggler314]

2- throw 'em out there... hold my breath. lol.

Heh - 2007 we went to vegas as a team, my 2 had to beat a 7 (granted the 2 was flirting with being a 2, but still...

She won the first game, somewhat surprisingly (3 ball out). Second game he won easily. 3rd game the 7 cuts the 8 in the corner (thin cut), cue comes back and scratches in the opposite far away corner (this sort of thing does happen sometimes...)

That didn't get us to vegas, but it got us to city championships...