The reason amateurs have trouble using english is because they miss balls because they haven't learned to ajust where to aim when using it. I know alot of decent players who miss many balls when using inside english. The best player I've ever seen who used less english than any player I had seen before was Jimmy Wales. He beat Earl Kellum for 2,500.00 giving up the 8 when he had just turned 15. He also beat Harold Dollar "on his table" and many other good players at 15 yrs old. I think he was sure the exception though,and yes he did have to use english as all good players do,but as I said less than anyone I had seen. Most top players will use english even when shooting the 9 more times than not, unless they are straight in.
Pros turning their backs on English?
- Thread starter Blackball75
- Start date
On the subject that the original poster asks, namely whether pros are turning their backs on "english" I'd have to say no. A pro knows what he or she needs to do and the most consistent of them do it the right way more often.
But on the subject of playing entirely without sidespin I want to relate some experiements I did in the mid 90s. My friend and I were having a debate about this very subject and I told him I'd play him some sets for $10 a set races to five using no side spin. I was only allowed to use follow and draw.
Long story short I won three sets before he gave up. The thing was that I had to give up perfect position on many shots when there just wasn't any way to get there without spin. But the flipside was that I was able to play some creative safeties where I otherwise would have pocketed the balls.
I find it's a GREAT way to practice.
JImmy Reid also taught me to throw out all the balls and run a rack with only center ball, a rack with only follow, a rack with only draw, and left, right, etc...
This little exercise gets your stroke loose pretty quick and allows you to figure out the table speed in no time.
Yesterday I was trying a shot that I saw on Billiard Digest's website where Efren plays position with a force follow right spin. It's still up http://www.billiardsdigest.com/
While playing with it I was way over juicing the ball with extreme english. Once I used ONE tip of right with follow I could do it every time.
But on the subject of playing entirely without sidespin I want to relate some experiements I did in the mid 90s. My friend and I were having a debate about this very subject and I told him I'd play him some sets for $10 a set races to five using no side spin. I was only allowed to use follow and draw.
Long story short I won three sets before he gave up. The thing was that I had to give up perfect position on many shots when there just wasn't any way to get there without spin. But the flipside was that I was able to play some creative safeties where I otherwise would have pocketed the balls.
I find it's a GREAT way to practice.
JImmy Reid also taught me to throw out all the balls and run a rack with only center ball, a rack with only follow, a rack with only draw, and left, right, etc...
This little exercise gets your stroke loose pretty quick and allows you to figure out the table speed in no time.
Yesterday I was trying a shot that I saw on Billiard Digest's website where Efren plays position with a force follow right spin. It's still up http://www.billiardsdigest.com/
While playing with it I was way over juicing the ball with extreme english. Once I used ONE tip of right with follow I could do it every time.
i'm really curious
What are the other 4?
If you didn't use english you wouldn't need a quality cue.
The biggest value of a cue is how it spins.Parking whitey
in a high % area usually requires english.Working the pack
at snooker and straight pool needs spin.I can't imagine playing
1-hole or banks without using a lot.Heavy cloth and cleaning spray
DOES make it more difficult to use though.
What are the other 4?
If you didn't use english you wouldn't need a quality cue.
The biggest value of a cue is how it spins.Parking whitey
in a high % area usually requires english.Working the pack
at snooker and straight pool needs spin.I can't imagine playing
1-hole or banks without using a lot.Heavy cloth and cleaning spray
DOES make it more difficult to use though.
The problem lies with Efren Reyes. He has such great command of the cue ball, regardless of what he puts on it, that every banger out there thinks it's the correct call to load it up with inside and go 4 rails for position. The plain truth of the matter is exactly like you said, man, top and bottom will do the majority of what you need to do. Save the side spin for when it's needed. And hey, I'm just as guilty as the next guy as far as over using english in my game. I tend to stay away from inside unless it's absolutely necessary though.
MULLY
it doesnt sound completly crazy but a little bit i suppose, i was always tought that side english should only be used when you are out of line or its your 1st inning at the table, and was also tought when im shooting poorly start using more center ball and slow it all down.
Rule of thumb- If you are straight in then use straight top, center, or low english. If you have an angle most of the time you will use outside or inside english whether it be high, center, or low (most of the time outside)
And your point is what?
Every player from a 5 on up knows that you use minimum english. But the key word is minimum. Learning what degree of english or,if possible, no english, is just part of learning the many subtleties of how to shoot. It is no great effing revelation or new discovery.:bash:
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Every player from a 5 on up knows that you use minimum english. But the key word is minimum. Learning what degree of english or,if possible, no english, is just part of learning the many subtleties of how to shoot. It is no great effing revelation or new discovery.:bash:
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trends
Trends come and go. Most players today overuse english, they get further out on the cue ball than they need to and they do this even when it isn't necessary to do it at all. Interestingly when I watched a double handful of snooker perfect games shot fairly recently it appears that the snooker players are using much more side than they once did too. Perhaps changes in cloth or other equipment encourages more side than in years past.
When I played my best pool I played with house cues and rarely used over half a tip of side other than when shooting a semi-masse shot. Now I am as guilty as anybody of spinning the cue ball and trying to force things when playing rotation games. I notice my pocketing always falls off playing nine and ten ball and goes back up playing eight ball and one pocket. It's the same table and same balls so I have to conclude it is my change in playing style playing rotation.
Hu
Trends come and go. Most players today overuse english, they get further out on the cue ball than they need to and they do this even when it isn't necessary to do it at all. Interestingly when I watched a double handful of snooker perfect games shot fairly recently it appears that the snooker players are using much more side than they once did too. Perhaps changes in cloth or other equipment encourages more side than in years past.
When I played my best pool I played with house cues and rarely used over half a tip of side other than when shooting a semi-masse shot. Now I am as guilty as anybody of spinning the cue ball and trying to force things when playing rotation games. I notice my pocketing always falls off playing nine and ten ball and goes back up playing eight ball and one pocket. It's the same table and same balls so I have to conclude it is my change in playing style playing rotation.
Hu
I think what a lot of players misunderstand is that sidespin is for controlling whitey AFTER it touches a rail. So many players develop a nasty habit of throwing a ball in with outside spin. And they have this messed up idea that if you hit the ball with left english, the cue ball immediately dives to the left more than usual. How many of you have seen that ugly shot where an apa 5 is too straight, so he smacks the CB with sidespin in the direction he wants it to go? The sidespin throws the OB way off and the cue ball still doesn't move much. He woulda been better just cheating the pocket and pounding it carefully with center.
I used to low-outside just about every ball on the table. Now I try hard not to unless I'm touching a rail and need to improve the angle. An exception would be using outside to hold a ball with a slight angle so that the CB almost stops dead.
I think if a player can break the habit of spinning everything in, he is on the way to jumping a skill level fast.
I used to low-outside just about every ball on the table. Now I try hard not to unless I'm touching a rail and need to improve the angle. An exception would be using outside to hold a ball with a slight angle so that the CB almost stops dead.
I think if a player can break the habit of spinning everything in, he is on the way to jumping a skill level fast.
i think with all the new shaft tech. that's out now, it lessens the emphasis on players building great fundamentals and stroke. i think it was lost somewhere that a great smooth, accelerating stroke decreases cueball deflection. and in pool, like golf, the majority of players out there have no idea what a great stroke or hit on the cueball feels like.
This is interesting. You use english on most angled shots, probably to control the throw - like I mentioned in my previous post. A spinning cue ball is less likely to skid or cling to the object ball. Since you come from a humid place, the wet environment causes the balls to cling a lot.
I often find myself favoring one side using 1/4 to 1/2 tip of outisde or inside on most cut shots without even necessarily being aware of it. I see a lot of players doing that.
I myself have tried to get away from using english to aim the ball. I find this is a bad way to aim - especially under pressure. But small amounts have little effect on aim and help control the throw and eliminate cling and cue ball skidding.
Chris
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I used to do this, until a good player showed me why it wasn't necessary. Now I shoot angle shots mostly with center ball, notice I said mostly, I think I still tend to put some english on these shots. Sometimes unconsciously because it's still in the back of my mind when I was first learning. On high, center, and low there is no english or side spin.
Island: you're right, and that was what I was getting at with the exception I mentioned. You also will spin a ball in if it's close to another ball and you can't quite cut it enough, or the cut line you need is barely obscured by another ball.
Sadly, a lot of the guys who are spinning balls in aren't doing it for specific reasons like these. They just do it.
Fonz: sounds like the old guard grousing about the new guard. Almost like you're saying there's no way today's players could be as skilled as the old guys, that's just impossible. They only can move the cue ball because of their fancy shafts and fast cloth. You figure they use all that sidespin as a crutch because they can't truly stroke a ball?
The thing is, how is my stroke with sidespin somehow not a great stroke but the other guy's with center ball is? We both got out of the rack =) I just don't get how you can say many players will never know what a great stroke is after seeing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L85wpzf9F0
Sadly, a lot of the guys who are spinning balls in aren't doing it for specific reasons like these. They just do it.
Fonz: sounds like the old guard grousing about the new guard. Almost like you're saying there's no way today's players could be as skilled as the old guys, that's just impossible. They only can move the cue ball because of their fancy shafts and fast cloth. You figure they use all that sidespin as a crutch because they can't truly stroke a ball?
The thing is, how is my stroke with sidespin somehow not a great stroke but the other guy's with center ball is? We both got out of the rack =) I just don't get how you can say many players will never know what a great stroke is after seeing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L85wpzf9F0
CreeDo tellin' it like it is again. Sometimes a positional shot is both easier and more consistent with spin. Maybe in straight pool you would just choose a different shot, but in rotational pool you can't, and you do it the easy way over the hard way every time if you know how to play the game right.
-Andrew
Yeah, I've seen that. But what I see overwhelmingly often among players roughly equivalent to APA levels 2-5 I guess is using stun or even draw for almost every shot they play. Even when topspin is totally the way to hit the shot. In a way it makes sense - keeping the CB traveling as little as possible. But mostly I think they think it's advanced play to be making as much possible use of spin. Even a kind of posing you could say.
I'm only APA 3 but seek to avoid the above. Drives me nuts. I've seen it equally much among novice snooker players too.
Edit: I've just been "promoted" to APA 4
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Blackball, you got it... scrubs LOVE to draw, just to show that they can. I used to be that guy... mixing the draw with outside spin for no reason. It got me pretty good early on with that critical rail cut where you spin the cue ball off the rail and across the table, or back to the middle, or wherever. But to see me shoot a straight in shot was horrifying, I'd hit it slowly with low left and let it swerve back in time to contact the ball straight on. Seriously.
While I wouldn't teach players not to use sidespin... if I had to force any player to unlearn one bad habit, it would be overuse of sidespin.
While I wouldn't teach players not to use sidespin... if I had to force any player to unlearn one bad habit, it would be overuse of sidespin.
You may be right. The tips used now are smaller than they used to be (9 or 9.5mm vs 10mm) so they might be getting less deflection.
Fair point. But occasionally a technique used a fair amount in enlish billiards can be useful - if you have too much angle and want to stop the cb running away from you, playing it with 'check side' (inside english) can sometimes do the job better than low.
Eric, Which bank player is this?? I'm just curious, I try to minimize english when I can too playing banks relying more on speed and cut angle when possible.
Bank players well one one Bank player I know who uses very little english banks the balls better than anyone I have ever seen period.
Other than him I'm with Donny Mills(hey I spelled his name right!!!:smile
I agree a hair of outside english is the nuts.