It's tough to spin a snooker ball with a pool tip.I watched Bugs Rucker
play 1-hole on a 5x10 snooker table at the Rack in '78.He was missing
banks by a full diamond 'cause he works the ball with english like many
top bankers.If you don't put outside spin on a back-bank you have to cut it a lot more.Outside english makes it more natural.
At pool or snooker ,english negates the 'cling' factor,especially on back
cuts.
I don't think you can be a great player without spinning a lot.
Fair point. But occasionally a technique used a fair amount in enlish billiards can be useful - if you have too much angle and want to stop the cb running away from you, playing it with 'check side' (inside english) can sometimes do the job better than low.
Not following this one siz, you're saying you wanted to be straighter on a shot, but there's just too much angle... so you want to hold it with a touch of inside english? Is this with or without touching a rail?
If you're not touching a rail, outside english (opposite the direction of the cut) is what you use to hold a ball. Like if the object ball must be cut to your left, you'd hit the right side of the CB.
If you're not touching a rail, outside english (opposite the direction of the cut) is what you use to hold a ball. Like if the object ball must be cut to your left, you'd hit the right side of the CB.
Not following this one siz, you're saying you wanted to be straighter on a shot, but there's just too much angle... so you want to hold it with a touch of inside english? Is this with or without touching a rail?
I am talking about short range shots here. You can get more effect from c.b. deflection than the side-induced throw which is tending to have the opposite effect. So you can aim to hit the o.b. much thicker and effectively squirt the c.b round.
Blackball: When you put left spin on the cue ball, it throws the object ball more to the right than usual, and vice versa.
For example in the diagram below, the shot is being cut towards the shooter's left. Right english in this case would be labelled as outside spin... it's opposite the direction that the ball is being cut.
Maybe the confusion is from when I say "the direction of the cut". I mean the direction that the object ball is travelling. So I'd say this ball is being cut to the left. Right spin makes it go even more left. If you didn't know, right spin would also make a ball go more left even if I'm cutting it to my right. It won't literally go left, but it will cut more to the left than it would if I had just hit centerball.
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Anyway, this is a basic example of using outside to hold the ball. If I cut this ball only a tiny bit (along the pink line) I won't sink it. It needs to be cut just an extra degree or two more. The problem is... if I cut it more, the cue ball travels more. It would travel a bit uptable and away from my next shot. I don't want that.
Therefore, I throw the object ball in with outside english. My right spin makes the object ball cut more to the left than usual. So now I CAN cut the ball a tiny bit, and let the sidespin take care of that extra degree of cut that I needed. The cue ball travels the same way (sidespin doesn't really alter how far it travels here) but the object ball is now moving on the red line, and barely drops into the pocket.
The misconception a lot of players have is that by hitting the cue ball with right spin here, their cue ball would move further to the right (further uptable, the result we're trying to avoid). But it doesn't. The cue ball's travel is determined by how thick you cut the object ball and how hard you hit it. Sidespin doesn't really factor in. And if you hit a ball dead in the face with massive sidespin... it will just stop there and spin in place like a top.
In the example above, you can't hit the cue ball with left english to make it move more towards the shooter's left, and thereby "hold" it...
Which brings me to Siz's post:
Siz, sorry, but I'm 99% sure you're dead wrong. Inside english won't hold a ball (still talking about no rail). Inside forces you to cut the ball thinner, and thinner = more cue ball travel. If you can, post a specific example where you can hold a ball better with inside than outside... I will try to keep an open mind and try it. Try cuetable.com to diagram it. But my understanding of english says you have things backwards.
I personally believe I can beat 99% of the guys that don't believe in using English especially if we are talking 9 ball. Or the guys that don't thing the pros are using it much.
I remember being at the same rating as so many guys in a TAP league 5 years ago and so many people would make comments about how english just makes you miss your shot.
I decided to learn to shoot with it and I did miss shots for a while but I eventually skyrocketed past them and am rated as high as anyone in my BCA league now.
English makes the game SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier. You will never get very good if you don't make a commitment to it.
I personally believe I can beat 99% of the guys that don't believe in using English especially if we are talking 9 ball. Or the guys that don't thing the pros are using it much.
I remember being at the same rating as so many guys in a TAP league 5 years ago and so many people would make comments about how english just makes you miss your shot.
I decided to learn to shoot with it and I did miss shots for a while but I eventually skyrocketed past them and am rated as high as anyone in my BCA league now.
English makes the game SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier. You will never get very good if you don't make a commitment to it.
A mastery of english is required to be at the top of your game, the key is knowing when and when not to apply it. I said a minimum of english, not no english at all. I know people that use it every shot. I'm just not one of them.
I personally believe I can beat 99% of the guys that don't believe in using English especially if we are talking 9 ball. Or the guys that don't thing the pros are using it much.
I remember being at the same rating as so many guys in a TAP league 5 years ago and so many people would make comments about how english just makes you miss your shot.
I decided to learn to shoot with it and I did miss shots for a while but I eventually skyrocketed past them and am rated as high as anyone in my BCA league now.
English makes the game SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier. You will never get very good if you don't make a commitment to it.
Using a lot of english is a step in the progression for some people. Then one day they realize that they simply don't need to use much if they see the simplest pattern and use angles and speed to move things around. It isn't because they can't use a lot of english if they need to, they just rarely need to.
There is a link to Corey Dueul really juicing a ball in this thread so obviously he can make the cue ball curve around the table like a trick shot artist if he needs to. How often do you see him actually do that? He very rarely uses the maximum spin he can apply simply because he doesn't get himself into the position of needing to most of the time. Some people carry this to the extreme and rarely use much side or extreme draw. Why use it if you don't need it?
Blackball: When you put left spin on the cue ball, it throws the object ball more to the right than usual, and vice versa.
For example in the diagram below, the shot is being cut towards the shooter's left. Right english in this case would be labelled as outside spin... it's opposite the direction that the ball is being cut.
Maybe the confusion is from when I say "the direction of the cut". I mean the direction that the object ball is travelling. So I'd say this ball is being cut to the left. Right spin makes it go even more left. If you didn't know, right spin would also make a ball go more left even if I'm cutting it to my right. It won't literally go left, but it will cut more to the left than it would if I had just hit centerball.
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Anyway, this is a basic example of using outside to hold the ball. If I cut this ball only a tiny bit (along the pink line) I won't sink it. It needs to be cut just an extra degree or two more. The problem is... if I cut it more, the cue ball travels more. It would travel a bit uptable and away from my next shot. I don't want that.
Therefore, I throw the object ball in with outside english. My right spin makes the object ball cut more to the left than usual. So now I CAN cut the ball a tiny bit, and let the sidespin take care of that extra degree of cut that I needed. The cue ball travels the same way (sidespin doesn't really alter how far it travels here) but the object ball is now moving on the red line, and barely drops into the pocket.
The misconception a lot of players have is that by hitting the cue ball with right spin here, their cue ball would move further to the right (further uptable, the result we're trying to avoid). But it doesn't. The cue ball's travel is determined by how thick you cut the object ball and how hard you hit it. Sidespin doesn't really factor in. And if you hit a ball dead in the face with massive sidespin... it will just stop there and spin in place like a top.
In the example above, you can't hit the cue ball with left english to make it move more towards the shooter's left, and thereby "hold" it...
Which brings me to Siz's post:
Siz, sorry, but I'm 99% sure you're dead wrong. Inside english won't hold a ball (still talking about no rail). Inside forces you to cut the ball thinner, and thinner = more cue ball travel. If you can, post a specific example where you can hold a ball better with inside than outside... I will try to keep an open mind and try it. Try cuetable.com to diagram it. But my understanding of english says you have things backwards.
Inside kill on the CB DOES work, your leaving out one major component as to why it does. The inside english on the CB will bring the vector off the rebound with the OB back more to "0". Outside is running english it adds to the CB vector created at impact with the OB. Now of course the angles do have limits as to how effective or ineffective that is and is more of a low angle of incidence style shot.
One of the biggest differences I've noticed between highly skilled players, like pros, and schmucks like me is that pros tend to use more English, not less. They'll work the white ball around the rails using running spin where lesser players will use speed. In 9-ball especially, I think any pro who didn't use English would be toast. Mosconi mostly played 14.1, where the cue ball generally has to travel much shorter distances to get shape.
The biggest diff b/t the pro's use of english and the schmucks use of it is exactly as you said. Pro's use more Natural "running" spin where as the banger will force it. Like shooting the draw when the follow shot was the proper choice.
Rule of thumb- If you are straight in then use straight top, center, or low english. If you have an angle most of the time you will use outside or inside english whether it be high, center, or low (most of the time outside)
I agree Donny. And I'm willing to bet that if a pro is left with a slight cut shot on the money ball, that 95% will shoot that shot with outside english. It may be just a 1/4 to 1/2 a tip, but they will shoot it with outside to cancel the throw on the object ball.
Now your middle of the road shooter may not know why he uses a little outside english on that cut shot, if he even does, he just knows that he makes it more often shooting it that way. Where the higher level shooter knows that it will cancel out the throw.
I agree Donny. And I'm willing to bet that if a pro is left with a slight cut shot on the money ball, that 95% will shoot that shot with outside english. It may be just a 1/4 to 1/2 a tip, but they will shoot it with outside to cancel the throw on the object ball.
An advantage of this method is that there can be no cling/skid/kick either. A disadvantage is that if the amount of English isn't judged just right, the throw amount (and direction) can vary quite a bit. For more info on this topic, see:
Inside kill on the CB DOES work, your leaving out one major component as to why it does. The inside english on the CB will bring the vector off the rebound with the OB back more to "0". Outside is running english it adds to the CB vector created at impact with the OB. Now of course the angles do have limits as to how effective or ineffective that is and is more of a low angle of incidence style shot.
As you said, the effect has its limits. The effect, if any, is very small. I think the effect that english has on cue ball direction off an object ball is minor compared to the that which having to cut it more has. So you are still better off cutting it fuller if your trying to limit cue ball movement.
Inside kill on the CB DOES work, your leaving out one major component as to why it does. The inside english on the CB will bring the vector off the rebound with the OB back more to "0". Outside is running english it adds to the CB vector created at impact with the OB. Now of course the angles do have limits as to how effective or ineffective that is and is more of a low angle of incidence style shot.
Can you explain this in different terms? "Bring the vector off the rebound back to 0" does not compute.
The idea here is that outside or inside english don't affect where the CB goes if you don't touch a rail, whereas how full you hit the OB affects CB travel very much. So a little outside english allows you to hit the OB fuller while still pocketing the ball, and hitting it fuller is what kills the CB.
I'm 100% sure that the above paragraph (and thus what CreeDo posted, since he said basically the same thing) is correct.
But I'm not sure what this "vector" effect you refer to actually means, so I can't really refute your post.
I personally believe I can beat 99% of the guys that don't believe in using English especially if we are talking 9 ball. Or the guys that don't thing the pros are using it much.
I remember being at the same rating as so many guys in a TAP league 5 years ago and so many people would make comments about how english just makes you miss your shot.
I decided to learn to shoot with it and I did miss shots for a while but I eventually skyrocketed past them and am rated as high as anyone in my BCA league now.
English makes the game SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier. You will never get very good if you don't make a commitment to it.
This is a great thread, certainly not nonsense. Lots of good players here, all with different styles of play. I happen to play with 2 guys that describe this thread to a tee. One guy is a center ball fanatic, the other is a spin and draw freak(and I was too). I rate them both even, around the A level. But, they each have a different way of getting the job done, way different.
For about 2 years I worked on incorporating alot more center ball into my game, basically trying to learn a new style. And I have to say, it helped alot. Not because that style is better, but because now I have more options. (There are so many center ball routes a spin player might not see or feel comfortable trying.) I admit....I still find myself bouncing back and forth, not really knowing which is style is better. I end up falling back on center ball if I am struggling, and find myself spinning more when I feel good at the table.
The 2 schools of thought here are, which is harder to judge? Deflection, and maybe some swerve....or throw? The center baller would say spin is harder to judge, but I dont think there is a "correct" answer. If you think you can stroke straight, have good speed control, dont mind hitting harder, and are good at judging throw....center ball is for you.
If anyone is looking to start using more center ball, just remember to pay attention to the contact induced throw, and also realize that the ball to ball contact points change. In the beginning you will probably hit shots too thick, and too soft because you don't get any spin off the rails.
There are usually options for an average shot, more than one way to skin a cat. Like most things on a pool table, it's up to you to decide what works best for you. When all the smoke clears....the more tricks in your bag, the better.
Fair point. But occasionally a technique used a fair amount in enlish billiards can be useful - if you have too much angle and want to stop the cb running away from you, playing it with 'check side' (inside english) can sometimes do the job better than low.
Not following this one siz, you're saying you wanted to be straighter on a shot, but there's just too much angle... so you want to hold it with a touch of inside english? Is this with or without touching a rail?
If you're not touching a rail, outside english (opposite the direction of the cut) is what you use to hold a ball. Like if the object ball must be cut to your left, you'd hit the right side of the CB.
Actually, you both are right. My experience has shown me that inside english works better to "hold" the CB on some shots, while outside works better on other shots.
For smaller angled shots (less than 15 degrees or so), I've found that outside english generally works better to hold the CB. As others have stated, you'd have to aim fuller and throw the OB. But for shots with a greater cut angles (> 20 degrees), then inside english generally works better to hold the CB.
Andrew: I think what he's saying is the 'common misconception' listed in my post :/
I think he's saying if you hit the cue ball with left spin... the cueball rebounds more to the left than it otherwise would.
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...don't wanna sound like I'm talking down at you ghost, but again I'm pretty sure this is dead wrong. Hitting with left spin on the cue ball (while cutting the object ball to the left) will make the cue ball travel the same distance and direction as it would with no english at all. And in fact may make things worse since you now must hit the object ball thinner to avoid missing the shot.
There was a thread recently about how you can elevate the cue a bit and use soft draw with sidespin to make a straight in draw shot rebound more to the left or right. Maybe that's the effect you're talking about? http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2311614&postcount=20
But basically that's a way to make more angle when you fell too straight. It's not a way to make less angle when you have too much cut. Any advantage you can get from that jacked up sidespin shot is ruined by the fact that you must cut the ball thinner to avoid having your inside spin throw it out of the pocket. You'd be better off throwing it with outside or even just center.
Dr. Dave has something that may or may not be considered proof.
You all know the shot where if you cut a ball into the corner, the cue ball is gonna scratch in the side. Sometimes it can be beat with follow and sometimes with draw. Sometimes it's a bit hairy and you must hit with good quick draw. Players have argued whether the best way to "hold" this shot and avoid the scratch is to use center draw, outside draw, or inside draw. So dave has filmed all three.
His findings in a nutshell: Low center works okay.
Low outside works too, and you can hit the ball a little fuller and throw it in, "making it easy to avoid the pocket".
The value of low inside is "questionable".
Actually, you both are right. My experience has shown me that inside english works better to "hold" the CB on some shots, while outside works better on other shots.
For smaller angled shots (less than 15 degrees or so), I've found that outside english generally works better to hold the CB. As others have stated, you'd have to aim fuller and throw the OB. But for shots with a greater cut angles (> 20 degrees), then inside english generally works better to hold the CB.
Engineer that you are, jsp, I wonder if you've introduced an experimental control on "pocket-cheat" into your observations? There is definitely a potential for correlation without causation (or even correlation despite negative causation), if you tend to hit the pocket on the full side when you use inside english on thinner cuts.
