APA.........You Do the Math.

[Grilled Cheese]

Sandbagging is so rampant in the APA, that many of the more successful teams almost openly admit that sandbagging is not just part of the game - it IS the game.

Now, even those who do not sandbag do like the fact that the handicap system doesn't work. Regardless of whether they actually think about it in that way. Most don't. Here's why.

It's well known that higher handicaps typically clobber the lower handicaps. Lower handicapped players do not enjoy playing higher handicaps for this reason. The higher handicaps don't mind because lower handicaps are an easy win, and similar handicap opponents are just even up.

In a truly handicapped system, all matches are even or extremely close. This means that no one gets much over 50% win percentage, nor does anyone fall much below a 50% win percentage.

What that means is, people have to WORK for their wins. It's not easy. Every match is a battle, regardless of who you play. A lot of players don't want to work hard to win - which is also a characteristic of their overall outlook in pool and why they are mediocre at best or mostly horrible players.

Many people in the APA don't like to have to work hard in a match. They like having an edge, but at the same time get miserable when it's themselves who are at a disadvantage. Yet, strangely, they don't get it nor mind. I suppose because they cherish the blow outs they inflict on their opponents, and quickly forget the beatings they received.

Team Matches are most often won by "put-up strategy"....that is, the team that can leverage the greater advantage by selecting match ups. Again, another testament to the fact that the individual handicapping system does NOT work.

There are three positions you can find yourself in, in an APA match:

Even up, an easy win, or nearly doomed to lose.

That isn't the case in a truly handicapped system. You'll always have an equal chance to win all the time. All or most matches are even up.

What decides what position you're in? Whether you were put up first and the other team decides who plays you, or whether your team put you up against a known opponent.

As a result, you are most often at a disadvantage being put up where the other team decides who will play you. Thanks to the fact that the handicapping system does not work.

 

[cuesmith]

Your right it is very simple. Why do people sandbag? Is it the 23 rule? NO! The do it because they want an advantage over the other person/team. The 23 rule is a cop out. I have played in numerous leagues the past 19 years. Both handicapped and not. A couple were structured similar to the APA with the handicaps. One had a higher limit (didn't stop any baggin made it easier!) the other doesn't have a limit, you just have to play 1 lower skill level during the night. While I did like the structure and formats, it was not better or worse. Just different. Instead of trying to change it to your liking, why not stay with the one that suits YOU!
I have never been on a team that had to split up because of handicaps. Have been to Vegas numerous times and been in the finals or semi's to go to Vegas every year. We have had to replace a couple of players but plan ahead for that. We don't look for the best 3's or 4's we look for chemistry. When we replace a player it's usually with a new player that's just learning to play. I will take time to teach them as best I can and enjoy helping them. I love the sport and helping people learn. I may not be a very good teacher or highly skilled player like most on this board, but I get off my ass and give back the best I can instead of bicthing about what pool owes me.

Frankly, if what you've said is true, you must be one of the teams of people playing the "numbers game" instead of pool. And I'm not *****ing about pool oweing me anything. If you knew anything about me, you'd know I've given a lot back to the sport! I just don't like the APA using the "23 rule pyramid" to enrich themselves and then using power plays to influence the boards of other pool organizations.

If you like it, you deserve all you get!

 

[cuesmith]

Sandbagging is so rampant in the APA, that many of the more successful teams almost openly admit that sandbagging is not just part of the game - it IS the game.

Now, even those who do not sandbag do like the fact that the handicap system doesn't work. Regardless of whether they actually think about it in that way. Most don't. Here's why.

It's well known that higher handicaps typically clobber the lower handicaps. Lower handicapped players do not enjoy playing higher handicaps for this reason. The higher handicaps don't mind because lower handicaps are an easy win, and similar handicap opponents are just even up.

In a truly handicapped system, all matches are even or extremely close. This means that no one gets much over 50% win percentage, nor does anyone fall much below a 50% win percentage.

What that means is, people have to WORK for their wins. It's not easy. Every match is a battle, regardless of who you play. A lot of players don't want to work hard to win - which is also a characteristic of their overall outlook in pool and why they are mediocre at best or mostly horrible players.

Many people in the APA don't like to have to work hard in a match. They like having an edge, but at the same time get miserable when it's themselves who are at a disadvantage. Yet, strangely, they don't get it nor mind. I suppose because they cherish the blow outs they inflict on their opponents, and quickly forget the beatings they received.

Team Matches are most often won by "put-up strategy"....that is, the team that can leverage the greater advantage by selecting match ups. Again, another testament to the fact that the individual handicapping system does NOT work.

There are three positions you can find yourself in, in an APA match:

Even up, an easy win, or nearly doomed to lose.

That isn't the case in a truly handicapped system. You'll always have an equal chance to win all the time. All or most matches are even up.

What decides what position you're in? Whether you were put up first and the other team decides who plays you, or whether your team put you up against a known opponent.

As a result, you are most often at a disadvantage being put up where the other team decides who will play you. Thanks to the fact that the handicapping system does not work.

You have a pretty good grasp of the APA system. I think if the 23 rule was eliminated entirely, and maybe a scale of 1-10 instead of 2-7 to adjust handicaps was developed would be a good start. And then instead of the current "put up system" have each team captain, secretly make up a list of the 5 players and the order they'll play, in advance and present their lists at post time for the first match. This would hopefully make the match-ups somewhat random. If the 1-10 scale works as well as I think it could (with some work of course) it should make the matches between high and lower handicapped players closer. This would benefit the lower handicapped players in that they'd be able to gain some experience playing better players. This is IMHO one of the most important things a person can do to improve their game. I'd give more "coaching time outs" for the lesser handicapped players also so they can learn the correct shots to take more easily and conversly less for the higher handicaps.

Finally I'd put the lions share of the prize money into the local level tournaments. Also use them for qualifiers (Any team finishing in the top 25% is elegible to enter National level tournament) for anyone wishing to compete in a National level tournament in Vegas or wherever with a significant entry fee for the teams that wish to play. Hopefully their winnings from the local level tournament can be used to defray the expenses of the National if they should elect to play. This way if you're not interested in the Vegas circus your prize money doesn't have to go into that pool! And those who do want to compete in the Vegas tourney, and if they finish in the top 25% are elegible to enter.

Makes more sense to me, but I'm not trying to get rich!

 

[Grilled Cheese]

The 23 rule is designed to break teams up, that's first and foremost.


Think of it like this...


5 players play in a given night. That's 23 / 5 = 4.6

4.6 is the average skill level you can put up at most for an overall team strength level.

Now, do this. Count up your handicaps on your team, and divide by the total number of players. If that number is anywhere near 4.6, you have a stacked team and a team where it is very hard to field a team without your low players there every week. Very close to breaking up or in desperate search of 2's, 3's or maybe 4's to get breathing room...while maybe having to kick 5, 6, or 7 off the team.


The notion that it's designed to keep teams from stacking high players would be true, but there's a few problems with this.

1. If it is true, then the APA is admitting their handicapping system doesn't work. Since a team of all 7's should play even against a team of all 3's. So much for the "equalizer" system.

2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.

This was to prevent teams from bringing 7,6,6 or 6,6,6 in playoffs where the goal is to win 3 matches to advance. This would obviously cause teams without an equal response in handicap level to get steamrolled. Again, another admission by the APA that their handicap system doesn't work.

If I'm wrong on this, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I remember this happening to some team at my pool room once. A team was forfeited for bringing 6,6,5 = 17pts.


But let's get back to the 4.6 average. This is important and the APA knows it. They've gauged it to where they know that the beginner will usually float around an SL3 for a season or two, but as they improve, the 4 - 5 range isn't hard to get to. That means, once some basic competence is gained (such as how to hold the stick straight for at least 2 shots), that individual player is now pushing the individual team average limit. Stressing the team's handicap.

Teams that stay intact are always, always teams that have two or three players perpetually stuck at an SL3 level. That allows everyone else to grow and improve and go up in handicap level without the team having to break apart.

If everyone on your team is learning and developing their game - your team is doomed.


That said, to maintain a team you need two or three people who have no capacity to improve. And other teams as well must have such players. Sandbagging teams don't have this problem.

Who wants to play in a league where 30% or more of the membership has no capacity to improve? I guess individuals who also have little capacity to improve themselves. Those that barely do, the SL6's and SL7's enjoy the league to beat up on people who have no idea how to play 8-ball. That's part of the put up strategy to gain wins. Not that most of them know how to play either; they rely on their better ball pocketing and position play abilities.

 

[DirtyIrish]

APA=Born cheaters

You have a pretty good grasp of the APA system. I think if the 23 rule was eliminated entirely, and maybe a scale of 1-10 instead of 2-7 to adjust handicaps was developed would be a good start. And then instead of the current "put up system" have each team captain, secretly make up a list of the 5 players and the order they'll play, in advance and present their lists at post time for the first match. This would hopefully make the match-ups somewhat random. If the 1-10 scale works as well as I think it could (with some work of course) it should make the matches between high and lower handicapped players closer. This would benefit the lower handicapped players in that they'd be able to gain some experience playing better players. This is IMHO one of the most important things a person can do to improve their game. I'd give more "coaching time outs" for the lesser handicapped players also so they can learn the correct shots to take more easily and conversly less for the higher handicaps.

Finally I'd put the lions share of the prize money into the local level tournaments. Also use them for qualifiers (Any team finishing in the top 25% is elegible to enter National level tournament) for anyone wishing to compete in a National level tournament in Vegas or wherever with a significant entry fee for the teams that wish to play. Hopefully their winnings from the local level tournament can be used to defray the expenses of the National if they should elect to play. This way if you're not interested in the Vegas circus your prize money doesn't have to go into that pool! And those who do want to compete in the Vegas tourney, and if they finish in the top 25% are elegible to enter.

Makes more sense to me, but I'm not trying to get rich!

the main we have cheaters is they 90% of the time DO NOT want to play their level This year they think they are going to help out us level 5 and below by breaking up the "super Teams" anybody up for a friendly bet on whether or not that happens
not gonna do it nope nope not gonna do it
Irish

 

[justadub]

2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.

This was to prevent teams from bringing 7,6,6 or 6,6,6 in playoffs where the goal is to win 3 matches to advance. This would obviously cause teams without an equal response in handicap level to get steamrolled. Again, another admission by the APA that their handicap system doesn't work.

If I'm wrong on this, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I remember this happening to some team at my pool room once. A team was forfeited for bringing 6,6,5 = 17pts.

I haven't looked at the team captain manual either. But if it is true, then my team would have forfeited right away at our state qualifiers a couple of months ago. 7+6+4=17. Played that way for all three rounds. Did the same for league championships, too. The LO was there for the qualifiers, and was re-computing handicaps between matches, so he was aware of who we played.

BTW, we went to the 4th player once or twice, and the 5th player twice as well. Guess it wasn't that big a competitive balance problem in our area.... Oddly enough, the other teams all had similar make-ups, give or take. None exactly, but plenty of high level with enough lower level to keep all these matches within one of the opponents handicap, were they drawn that way.

I'm not gonna go back over all the rest of the stuff again. Those who hate it will continue to hate it and rail against it. I just wanted to clarify this point.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Must be a local bylaw then.

I'm too lazy to check the APA manual online. That and I'll feel dirty looking through it.

 

[LeagueGuy]

2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.

This was to prevent teams from bringing 7,6,6 or 6,6,6 in playoffs where the goal is to win 3 matches to advance. This would obviously cause teams without an equal response in handicap level to get steamrolled. Again, another admission by the APA that their handicap system doesn't work.

If I'm wrong on this, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I remember this happening to some team at my pool room once. A team was forfeited for bringing 6,6,5 = 17pts.



Who wants to play in a league where 30% or more of the membership has no capacity to improve? I guess individuals who also have little capacity to improve themselves. Those that barely do, the SL6's and SL7's enjoy the league to beat up on people who have no idea how to play 8-ball. That's part of the put up strategy to gain wins. Not that most of them know how to play either; they rely on their better ball pocketing and position play abilities.

Sorry Bola Ocha but you are way off on a number of points

There is no rule against playing any number of points in the first 3 matches. However in the 9-ball format there is a rule about playing 2 players 6 or more but again this rule does not apply to 8-ball. If this is the real reason that you weer unhappy with the APA (which I highly doubt) then you should have spoken to your division rep or L.O. and asked a few questions.

Secondly to insinuate that a team needs to have a 2 or a 3 who never wants to get better is completely off base. In the APA what teams need to do is to always have lower skilled players on their team. When their new players improve then they need to change around their roster which usually means a top end player leaves and a new players comes on. Teams that play in the APA understand that and that is part of the game. This league is built for the lower to mid player - not the highly skilled player although there is enough to keep the highly skilled player interested. I am an 8 in 9-ball and a 7 in 8-ball and have never thought the way you doabout the APA. Between the singles and the Masters along with regular league, there are lots of opportunities for mw to play other higher skilled players.

Wal-Mart gets more compalints than any other retailer. Does that mean Wal-Mart is bad. No, it just means that because of the numbers they will get more complaints. The same holds for the APA. Their memberships of 250,000 is 3.5 times higher than the BCA (I looked it up before I typed this) and many times what the other leagues have.

Not everyone needs to like the APA system. In fact, in our area, most of the sandbaggers and a__holes play in another league. Just another reason why the APA league I play in is so much fun.

 

[elove]

APA vs BCA

I do not remember who sent me the PM about starting a BCA league in my area but PLEASE resend .....

 

[TimKrazyMon]

2. I don't know if it is in the captain's manual or if it's a by-law, but I believe that there are rules against playing 7,6,6,2,2. Or that you can't put up more than 16pts worth of players in the first 3 matches.

There is no rule in APA 8-ball limiting handicaps other than the 23-rule, however in APA 9-ball there is an additional rule that you can not play more than 2 senior handicapped players. Senior handicaps are 6's through 9's.

 

[overtaker]

Mark Griffin

It is sad when the owner of the BCA has to get on a billiard forum and bash another league. Things not going so well for you?

 

[beav99_4life]

It is sad when the owner of the BCA has to get on a billiard forum and bash another league. Things not going so well for you?

Really? Would you like to guess again?

 

[sunnyday]

It is sad when the owner of the BCA has to get on a billiard forum and bash another league. Things not going so well for you?

When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.

 

[APA Operator]

It's well known that higher handicaps typically clobber the lower handicaps. Lower handicapped players do not enjoy playing higher handicaps for this reason. The higher handicaps don't mind because lower handicaps are an easy win, and similar handicap opponents are just even up.

In a truly handicapped system, all matches are even or extremely close. This means that no one gets much over 50% win percentage, nor does anyone fall much below a 50% win percentage.

<Extra stuff cut>

There are three positions you can find yourself in, in an APA match:

Even up, an easy win, or nearly doomed to lose.

That isn't the case in a truly handicapped system. You'll always have an equal chance to win all the time. All or most matches are even up.

Theoretically true. Practically impossible.

Think of the best player you know. In an 8-Ball match against a beginner (APA 2), what would the spot have to be to give each player an equal chance to win? 15-2? More?

Now play five of those races in one night. How long do you think it would take?

This is just one example, and yes, it is the extreme. But watch what happens next. Think of the fifth-best player you know. What would the spots have to be for this player and each of the players in the first example? What about the 100th-best player?

If you follow the logic, you can see that it is practically impossible to devise a handicap system that makes every match a 50-50 proposition AND can be played out in four or five hours.

So what do you do? Well, you could decrease the number of individual matches played on a league night, but my guess (and it's not much more than a guess, just a gut feeling) is that the true-handicap system would require at least two to three times as many games, so to finish the night at a reasonable hour you probably could only play two matches. Two players isn't much of a team. Location owners would hate it, since it would cut their crowd by 2/3. One player going on vacation would seriously hamper the team. All in all, this probably isn't a good option.

You could play multiple matches simultaneously. This would require multiple tables, though - again location owners would not be happy. You couldn't even have teams in a location with just one table. This probably isn't a good option either.

What's left? Make the races manageable so the average race can be completed in an hour or less. No spots bigger than five games. Your beginners are 2's, so the highest skill level is 7. That gives you six buckets into which you must group your players. Given this limitation, no matter how you determine the grouping, there will be plenty of matches where one player is the clear favorite.

Don't EVEN talk to me about spotting by ball count. Besides the fact that it's a horrible way to handicap 8-Ball, my contention would be that the disparity in ability between players would still produce matches that can't fit into a league night.

Please note that my comments apply to ANY system of handicapping, not just 8-Ball and not just APA. Every handicapped league suffers from the time constraints of a league night, so NO handicapped league can ever produce 50-50 matches all or nearly all the time.

 

[Zims Rack]

I think that BALL COUNT is probably the fairest way to HCP an 8-ball league, not by games!

In 8-ball, the better players will win 70% or more of the games, which means that the lower hcp players are winning only 30% or less of the games. By using a ball count scoring system it requires the better players to play their game and not sandbag and rewards the lower hcp players for what they were able to accomplish during each game.

Zim's Rack 8-Ball League has a modified team hcp max... we use a 27 rule, when a team is over 27 they are not forced to split up or add players to roster to keep hcp below 27, but they do give a bonus hcp to the lower hcpd team. Doesn't discourage the better team from improving their game, but rewards the weaker team with bonus points that they are not likely to earn during the game.

98% of the time when a league session ends with playoffs you will have sandbagging- especially when a majority of your weekly fees goes to the playoffs or National Championship. Zim's Rack 8-Ball League has eliminated the need for sandbagging- all leagues have sandbaggers, it's how they are punished for doing so that makes a difference.

BTW- we play a 16 game round robin format with 4 players, starts at 730pm and ends around 1030 (some 10, some 11pm).

Zim

 

[daphish1]

There is no rule in APA 8-ball limiting handicaps other than the 23-rule, however in APA 9-ball there is an additional rule that you can not play more than 2 senior handicapped players. Senior handicaps are 6's through 9's.

I believe Bola Ocho is talking about this rule:

16. 23-RULE/19-RULE IN EFFECT
The 23-Rule in the Open Division and the 19-Rule in the Ladies Division,
will be enforced. No team will be allowed to add a player to the roster for
23-Rule/19-Rule purposes. Teams that cannot meet the 23-Rule/19-Rule
will not be disqualified based on their inability to meet the 23-Rule/19-Rule.
Instead, they will be allowed to play four players whose combined skill levels
do not exceed 19 in the Open Division (or 16 in the Ladies Division), when
the sum of the lowest five players listed on the roster exceeds 23/19, and
forfeit the fifth point.
Just as in regular Session Playoffs, you must show that the players listed on
your roster could have made up a legal team if the match had gone the full five
points. If the lowest five players listed on your 8-Ball division roster do exceed
23 (19 for Ladies), your team will be playing with four players whose
combined skill levels do not exceed 19 (16 for Ladies). Obviously, if a fifth
match were required, your team would have to forfeit.

 

[Stylez777]

As for the original topic:

I've played on the same 8-ball APA team for 3 seasons. Let's say we had an avg of 16 weeks in each season. so if I played every single week (which i didn't i missed a week here or there or had the night off because we have 7 players on the team and I took the night off so someone else could shoot) we have $8 x 16 weeks = $128 over 3 seasons = $384 which is a fair number to say I've spent on my APA league so far (our yearly team fee is paid by the bar we play for) Last season my team won the division and we also won the sportsmanship award which gave the team back money which came out to $120 per person on the team. So all in all for the avg guy like me I got back 25% of the money I spent to do something that I love to do every week. Also got a shot to play and go to Vegas which was also really cool. I can't complain at all.

 

[Phidget]

I tried APA for 2 sessions last year. Went to cities and forfeited both times due to having a new team with handicaps going up. I got tired of trying to field a team with friends who play pool because i COULDNT. You have to have completely new players, people with one arm, or missing an eye to keep handicaps down if you have even 2 decent players on your team. Nearly anyone playing very often will go to 5.

I also experienced a nightly rep who had it out for my team and admitted as much to others on his team to the point that peoeple were flocking to other nights/pool halls. He also upheld the rules differently and admitted to not enforcing one rule because the guy on the other team was known to easily anger.

I also experienced an area rep who said she "handled it", yet the same behavior continued.

Overall, I paid in over $500 last year for leagues and dues. Out of that, I got 3 plaques that cost $15 each from the trophy store as well as a bunch of headaches and an inability to actually play with my friends (having to recruit strangers).

I also don't drink when I play (I go out to play pool OR drink, not both at once), so it isnt exactly a fun night - strangers, archaic rules, expensive, idiot rep....

I have since left APA and joined an in house league with 90% going to payouts. The format is odd, but the atmosphere is so much better and I can play with friends.

From my time in the APA and city tournaments, there was plenty of sandbagging combined with Oscar caliber performances from guys I have seen play well the other 6 nights in a week. I also saw about 25% of teams turn into crazed demons, out for "Vegas". I mean come on. On a typical league night to call a rep over to demand forfeits because a cell phone was answered!

It amazes me the money and time many people spend in this league trying to get to Vegas. Newflash. Save your league dues and shop around. Vegas is not that pricy.

APA has a good model from a business standpoint, plus they have the enviable spot of pretending to be the white knight of the sport so that talking bad about them is treated as a bad thing. I don't blame them their money, but don't kid yourselves it is about promoting the sport; it is about promoting their business.

This area just started some form of league (Super 30 i think) with higher rankings allowed per team. Dues are the same but with no big payout or Vegas trip. Great job. Listen to the complaints and provide what people want, but still charge them the same money as national stuff with all the normal payout money being divied between the apa folks.

I am glad I played in it so I could understand what people said about APA (good and bad). It also gave me a "ranking" so I could play in my local pool hall events (required).

I WISH TO GOD that other leagues could gain a foothold here, but it is just too hard to get enough people to play at once, and noone wants to play leave APA after their months or years of "investment" - - this just may be their year!

 

[LeagueGuy]

When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.

How is it a fact when there is no way that anyone except an APA L.O. knows the facts.

This is not face it is speculation from people who already have a biased negative opinion. In fact it is blantant false information and borders alot close tosalnder than fact.

As i said previosly. If you don't like it then don't play. But keep the false information and the blatant lies to your self.

 

[sunnyday]

How is it a fact when there is no way that anyone except an APA L.O. knows the facts.

This is not face it is speculation from people who already have a biased negative opinion. In fact it is blantant false information and borders alot close tosalnder than fact.

As i said previosly. If you don't like it then don't play. But keep the false information and the blatant lies to your self.

I guess some of you 'APA' supporters/ LO just can't handle the truth. Mark G. said that APA is a great business model and even complimented about it's concept somewhere in this thread, but all you can think of is that he is bashing APA? Wake up people.

I don't play APA, but I hear horror stories about it almost everyday. Plus, it seems like every couple months, there's someone starting a thread about how disappointed they are by the organization. So, it's not like there aren't plenty of people complaining about it. I don't think people get bored and make up stories day after day.

I'm sure there are good people among APA too, but it seems lately all I hear are complaints.

S.