APA.........You Do the Math.
- Thread starter Ball Banger
- Start date
Zim...Your numbers are off by 50%. Reread that article, and post it here. I was a former APA LO, in the early 90's, and corporate "claimed" they would reach 1 million by 2000 (it was over 125K back then. They have never even come close. The latest numbers have been flat for at least the last 2-3 years, if not longer, at 250K (and that includes Canada and Japan). Do you think running two national championships costs nothing? Do they cost millions? No...but they do run nice tournaments in Vegas. Do you think national tv advertising is free? No. Does it cost millions? No, but they do a LOT of advertising. All these "bash the APA" threads make me sick. You can not like something, and choose not to participate, but to badmouth what you know nothing about is BS. The majority of APA players LIKE the league, or they wouldn't play. Are there bad APA LO's? Sure...just like there are bad BCA LO's, TAP LO's, VNEA LO's, etc. Don't call them all crooks because of the actions of a few. Don't forget, there's also the slimeball actions of the guy who "certified" you as an instructor. I notice that you no longer put your affiliation with him in your sig lines...smart move.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Last edited:
Scott- if I misread the membership numbers, my mistake, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading "over 500,000 members is US, Canada and now Japan". Either way, all you said is correct... but I (and I'm apparently not the only one) feel that the local level should have a payout in ANY league. If you make the NATIONAL events the focus point, then your system will be cheated to get to that level. Make the LOCAL level more rewarding and the National level a little something extra, then the league will be more competitive and fair.
As far as my association with the BSACA and Tim White, yes I took a week long course, learned a lot and in great detail, became an instructor under the BSACA... it's apparently not successfull and he's pretty much alienated himself due to certain actions (no need for detail) and I've pretty much gone on my own as well. Tim is a very talented and knowledgeable instructor and for those reasons I don't bash him like other "Professional Instructors" on the forums. Do I agree with his actions on the videos or with the Shuffett's, NO! But does that mean that I need to bash him, NO!
Personally, from one professional to another... I have never bashed an individual in the public eye... in our business, we can't burn ANY bridges!
Thanks Scott,
Zim
Scott,
With all due respect to each and everyones opinion, I submit this post and proclaim it to NOT be bashing the APA. Just relating my feelings and experiences.
I have to keep reminding myself that this is a public forum. All opinions, whether they agree with mine (yours) or not are valued. Information CANNOT be recieved on this forum without ALL the opinions being given. That being said, there are a LOT of opinions on this forum AGAINST the APA. Obviously there are a lot of people that have been involved in the APA that have had bad experiences and choose to relate them to us here. If we listen to what we read, we may realize that the APA does indeed have a lot of shortcomings. Do the other leagues? I'm sure they do, but mysteriously they do not get the ink that the APA does. Why is that? Possibly, it is because there are way fewer instances of bad experiences in the other leagues. Possibly, it is because the APA has a larger membership, therefore more odds of possible problems. It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that there is obviously a lot of people on this forum unhappy enough with the APA to want to come on here and "sound off" about their experiences. Why should this make you sick? If you came on here with a problem (such as Zim's Rack's instructor) and I didn't agree with it, it wouldn't make me "sick". You have the right to your opinion AND the right to post it on here (and you did). The APA "bashers" have this very same right. Let's not forget that.
Now, I have played (since 2006) in APA 8-ball and 9-ball leagues without missing a session. This session I am not playing in either one. Do I hate the APA? No. In fact, I believe the APA has a solid structure and a good base on which to have a decent "fun" league. If you have an honest LO (which I did not) and players that abide by the rules and show integrity (which many in my divisions did not), you can have a very enjoyable and successful league. It just didn't happen for me, and apparently not for MANY others judging on the number of threads/posts written on this forum. I will play APA again. I don't hate it. If I play in South Arlington APA, it's going to have to be Masters Division though. No more APA handicapping for me, thank you! At least not in the area where I have to play. What is happening in the regular division leagues here would pi$$-off a lot of people. I'm not going to get into it now, but I have touched on it in other threads.
Scott, let's try to remember that there are people like myself on this forum that VALUE each and every opinion/related experience, whether it is on the same page with mine (or yours) or not. I want nothing less than what people have experienced, or how they really feel about a given subject. My suggestion to you is to never again open an APA thread if it is going to "make you sick".
Maniac
Hey there champ, got news for ya. From my point of view that 20% is closer to accurate than you think. My LO sends 5 teams to Vegas (3 8-ball, 2 9 ball) with a travel fund of $8000 apiece. So that would add up to $40k, factor in cost of patches, trophies, and other various awards & I'd say that the payback to players adds up to 15%-20%, given what we "donate" in league fees.
Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.
Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues.
League payouts
First of all, I sure would like to know who I am talking to - you can contact me by PM if you prefer it that way.
Secondly, as many of the other posts have stated, the 20% is not that far off. I absolutely agree there are good and bad League Operators - but to state that I am spreading misinformation about the APA is not accurate.
The APA is a great business model - but it does very little to promote pool. There rules are 'make believe' and their system really promotes sandbagging (just ask the APA players). I do get along with several APA League Operators but the APA home office has policies that do nothing but alienate me.
But this thread is about how much money is returned to the APA players. I will stand pretty close to the 20% I stated earlier. You may pay out way more - but your brethren just don't.
Is that bashing? I don't think so - it is what it is.
Bashing is the APA BLACKMAILING the WPBA members to not cast their vote for me to be on their board. They say it would be a conflict. Strange that the APA never felt they were in conflict the 10 years that Renee' was on the BCA board. A little double standard?????
The APA has drawn the line in the sand - not me. I will try to work with anyone if that will advance pool. The APA can NOT say that. And that is one reason why I don't think they are good for pool.
If you want to debate this, please pick up the phone and call me (702-835-2000 is my cell). But if you don't tell me your name, I will not talk to you.
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS
APA LO said "Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.
Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues."
First of all, I sure would like to know who I am talking to - you can contact me by PM if you prefer it that way.
Secondly, as many of the other posts have stated, the 20% is not that far off. I absolutely agree there are good and bad League Operators - but to state that I am spreading misinformation about the APA is not accurate.
The APA is a great business model - but it does very little to promote pool. There rules are 'make believe' and their system really promotes sandbagging (just ask the APA players). I do get along with several APA League Operators but the APA home office has policies that do nothing but alienate me.
But this thread is about how much money is returned to the APA players. I will stand pretty close to the 20% I stated earlier. You may pay out way more - but your brethren just don't.
Is that bashing? I don't think so - it is what it is.
Bashing is the APA BLACKMAILING the WPBA members to not cast their vote for me to be on their board. They say it would be a conflict. Strange that the APA never felt they were in conflict the 10 years that Renee' was on the BCA board. A little double standard?????
The APA has drawn the line in the sand - not me. I will try to work with anyone if that will advance pool. The APA can NOT say that. And that is one reason why I don't think they are good for pool.
If you want to debate this, please pick up the phone and call me (702-835-2000 is my cell). But if you don't tell me your name, I will not talk to you.
Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS
APA LO said "Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.
Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues."
I need to throw in my 2 cents as well.
I have played in the APA system for a while. In our area the L.O. pays out close to 50% of what he takes in. Between cash tournaments, vegas trips, sending teams to other APA tournaments not to mention trophies pins patches etc. alot goes back to the league - just only a small % age of it is in cash.
If you want to play in a league for cash, then find a league that pays only cash and stop bashing the APA.
As for comments about the rules, the APA is gearred to bring new players into the game. The 9-ball ball count and no push rule helps the lower player. The 8-ball fluke rule and not open off the break helps the lower skilled player. What is wrong with giving a slight edge to the people who actully need it.
The BCA is a handicap league at the local level but if you want to go to the national event it is no longer handicapped. What makes me laugh is that if the APA format is so bad, why did the BCA come up with its new national handicapped leaguer. Could it be that the APA is right on the mark and that the BCA missed the boat and realized that the majority of players are not highly skilled ones. The bottom line is that the APA is a business for the L.O and i know many that put their heart and soul into it.
As for sandbaggin. My area does not have sandbaggin problem. By the way, for those that complain about others sandbaggin - i would go by the old saying that it typically takes a sandbagger to spot a sandbagger.
If you want to play for cash, go find a tournament somewhere and leave the APA alone. There happen to be 250,000 of us that love it and don;t care about the cash and want to try to earn our way to nationals.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But just because the 250,000 of us don't saher yours does not mean we are necessarily wrong.
I have played in the APA system for a while. In our area the L.O. pays out close to 50% of what he takes in. Between cash tournaments, vegas trips, sending teams to other APA tournaments not to mention trophies pins patches etc. alot goes back to the league - just only a small % age of it is in cash.
If you want to play in a league for cash, then find a league that pays only cash and stop bashing the APA.
As for comments about the rules, the APA is gearred to bring new players into the game. The 9-ball ball count and no push rule helps the lower player. The 8-ball fluke rule and not open off the break helps the lower skilled player. What is wrong with giving a slight edge to the people who actully need it.
The BCA is a handicap league at the local level but if you want to go to the national event it is no longer handicapped. What makes me laugh is that if the APA format is so bad, why did the BCA come up with its new national handicapped leaguer. Could it be that the APA is right on the mark and that the BCA missed the boat and realized that the majority of players are not highly skilled ones. The bottom line is that the APA is a business for the L.O and i know many that put their heart and soul into it.
As for sandbaggin. My area does not have sandbaggin problem. By the way, for those that complain about others sandbaggin - i would go by the old saying that it typically takes a sandbagger to spot a sandbagger.
If you want to play for cash, go find a tournament somewhere and leave the APA alone. There happen to be 250,000 of us that love it and don;t care about the cash and want to try to earn our way to nationals.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But just because the 250,000 of us don't saher yours does not mean we are necessarily wrong.
Apa
I have spent a lot of time bashing the APA and well....its fun.
True the numbers do not match up with other league systems as far as payouts.Yes its a pyramid scheme of sorts but...
-The APA works-
I know a few top players who got thier start in APA some even stayed with thier team long after they were able to get anything back.They used it as a way to give back to the game through coaching(skills and sportsmanship).The timeout is one nice feature of APA play.
The APA puts people around the pool tables on what might otherwise have been a dead night for the bar.These people around the tables are buying drinks and food,tipping the employees.Where I play we have 9' tables in one part of the building and 7' Valleys in another.Since the 9' tables do not pay for themselves on most nights the APA players help to keep the place open.
When I first started playing pool if I was asked to join a league I did not ask about payouts.New players want to get out of the house one night of the week and they want to compete and have a chance to win.Most people who become serious about pool or want to compete against higher skilled players simply move on from the APA.
When you start looking at numbers and payouts its time to leave the APA and find a different pool mode.
I have spent a lot of time bashing the APA and well....its fun.
True the numbers do not match up with other league systems as far as payouts.Yes its a pyramid scheme of sorts but...
-The APA works-
I know a few top players who got thier start in APA some even stayed with thier team long after they were able to get anything back.They used it as a way to give back to the game through coaching(skills and sportsmanship).The timeout is one nice feature of APA play.
The APA puts people around the pool tables on what might otherwise have been a dead night for the bar.These people around the tables are buying drinks and food,tipping the employees.Where I play we have 9' tables in one part of the building and 7' Valleys in another.Since the 9' tables do not pay for themselves on most nights the APA players help to keep the place open.
When I first started playing pool if I was asked to join a league I did not ask about payouts.New players want to get out of the house one night of the week and they want to compete and have a chance to win.Most people who become serious about pool or want to compete against higher skilled players simply move on from the APA.
When you start looking at numbers and payouts its time to leave the APA and find a different pool mode.
I've been playing in the APA for several years. My LO pays out roughly 40% cash yearly between the local tourneys and sending teams to Vegas. It's just a nudge above 20% 
I know. I don't have a problem with the 23 rule either. It's not the rule that promotes the sandbagging it's the people that CHEAT for an edge. And the biggest complainers of the sandbagging are usually the ones that have done it and been caught or are the ones doing it.
As for the APA being bad for the sport by generating revenue for local pool halls, bars and businesses in the billiard industry. How is that bad? I don't see the highly skilled players out there trying to do this or much of anything for the sport. Other than complain that they can't get there share of the pie since most seem to think they deserve something for nothing.
I know. I don't have a problem with the 23 rule either. It's not the rule that promotes the sandbagging it's the people that CHEAT for an edge. And the biggest complainers of the sandbagging are usually the ones that have done it and been caught or are the ones doing it.As for the APA being bad for the sport by generating revenue for local pool halls, bars and businesses in the billiard industry. How is that bad? I don't see the highly skilled players out there trying to do this or much of anything for the sport. Other than complain that they can't get there share of the pie since most seem to think they deserve something for nothing.
CreeDo speaks the REAL facts.
For years I said I didn't want anything to do with the APA, but that was because I had heard so many negative reports about that organization (such as some in this thread). I guess I should have learned to never say never. Our local APA league operators are a married couple who work very hard and do a wonderful job of promoting pool in our area. And theirs is the only league in our area that is actually growing during these tough times, while all the other leagues are losing players. Whatever it is they make off of their franchise, I can tell you that it is not nearly enough.
Plus, the APA national organization makes no bones about telling everyone that their goal is to make the lesser-skilled players happy, not to funnel money to those who think they are semi-pros and that league play should be a source for supplemental income.
One more thing; if the APA has learned how to make money in this industry, then I say good for them. That's what good business is all about. If others think they should "give it all back to the players," then that is their business. I wish them well, also.
Roger
I had you pegged to be a bit smarter than this, Mark. You have fallen into the trap of believing a handful of internet message board posters who just love to stir things up. For every person who likes to bash APA on this site, there are hundreds and maybe even thousands that don't visit this site at all (or even quit visiting this site after reading the constant negativity tossed at APA) because they love everything about the APA.
Instead of taking the high road and ignoring it, you decided to take the time to attempt to capitalize on it like an ambulance chasing lawyer. And even in your responses to me after I explained how embarrassing this is for you, you continue to provide misinformation about my league.
I pay back 50% of what my league members pay in weekly fees. A small percentage of what I make goes to APA in royalty, and between that weekly royalty and membership fees, my same members get some of that back in prize money in the National Championships. Thus, more than 50% return. I wouldn't expect you to know that since it really isn't any of your business. But, I know of several APA League Operators who publish a breakdown of their weekly fees in their bylaws for all of their league members to see.
Why someone might pay back more or less is of their concern and their concern only. As nice of an effort that Bola Ocho made on breaking down the local fees in his area, he completely forgot to include a whole lot of stuff that typically gets paid out in local league play. I pay out trophies and plaques to individuals and host locations, patches for every 8 and 9 ball break and every break and run, added money in individual tournaments, MVP prize money, paid entry fees into National events, trophies at the Local Team Championships, prize money at the Local Team Championships and probably a whole lot more that I'm not thinking of. I shouldn't have to tell the president of a pool league any of this. You should know these things. As a fellow business man, I shouldn't have to point out that most of these internet posters really have no idea what kind of money it requires to run a successful business. Half of them never even considered an actual business expense when they calculate how much I make. Nevermind that there is this thing called taxes.
As far as you being blackmailed by the APA National Office, that's not really mine or anyone elses business here. There's always 3 sides to every story, and all we have is yours. After reading how you assume APA LO's only pay out 20% because some internet poster said so, I'm not all that inclined to believe yours. At the same time, I don't really care.
Finally, calling APA's rules make believe and saying APA's business model does nothing to promote pool is just a bunch more misinformation. It's also a rather childish rhetoric since you now seem to be responding in a tone that suggests your feelings are hurt. How in the world did you become this misinformed, Mark?
As far as who I am and whether you will continue your discussion with me depending on whether I provide you a name, I'm sorry but it's once again none of your business. I am an APA LO and I'm damn proud of what I do and the product I provide for my players. I don't see why you would need this information since you seem to believe everything all of these other anonymous internet message board posters are throwing out there. I don't appreciate you badmouthing my business on a public forum. You will never see me badmouth the BCA on here. We get along with every BCA LO in our area and we recognize the benefits every league does for the pool business world as a whole.
Are there things I could say that would be negative towards BCA? Sure, but what would be the point? No one is perfect and no one is claiming to be perfect.
Promote your own product and quit providing misinformation about APA, and I'll leave you alone. Continue badmouthing APA and I'll continue responding in kind.
Last edited:
Louie Roberts used to be one of the principal owners
Look at you, condemnation of Mark and yet you respond as well. Have you guys ever heard how Hubbard and Bell bought out Louie Roberts who was one of the 3 original owners of this league.????
Well no need to add FUEL to the fire.
APAs sponsors pay a big chunk of their advertising and kickbacks from Vegas for having the event there cover those cost. So, the 20 percent argument may not be that far off the point.
With Hubbard and Bell pulling down 7 figure salaries for their dedication.
Why dont we pull up the APA business tax filings.???
Now were diggin up BONES.
Look at you, condemnation of Mark and yet you respond as well. Have you guys ever heard how Hubbard and Bell bought out Louie Roberts who was one of the 3 original owners of this league.????
Well no need to add FUEL to the fire.
APAs sponsors pay a big chunk of their advertising and kickbacks from Vegas for having the event there cover those cost. So, the 20 percent argument may not be that far off the point.
With Hubbard and Bell pulling down 7 figure salaries for their dedication.
Why dont we pull up the APA business tax filings.???
Now were diggin up BONES.
What a thread . . .
we've beat this one down to the fine points good.
I played APA . . . don't have any issues with a league operator making money . . . its a business.
The handicap system sucks. I played both 9 and 8 ball in APA . . . between the 23 deal and some asshole team captains we'd end up some nights having a 7 or 8 play a 2 or 3 handicap - ridiculous.
The team members improve - handicaps go up - bam! End of year you had to break up the team. I do believe that this is a fundamental of the model - its used to spawn MORE teams - MORE money - etc. etc.
IMO non-expert laughable opinion, APA should drop the TEAM handicap for the night - the 23 deal is what pisses off everyone. Make some conditions like everyone who plays that night has to play someone at the same or within one level of their skill level - period. Who gives a rats ass if you go over 23.
The sandbagging can also be rampant in APA from what I saw. Have a couple of "skilled" players doing observations/ratings and you'd stop a lot of what ails the APA. Some players (who were baggers) were swinging 2 - 3 levels during a session or during the year. Maybe 4's or above should never be allowed to go Down - if you proved you have the ability to play at that level - go from a 3 to a 4 - then you are a 4 until you earn a 5. From then on, you are one and you don't change until you improve to the next level. Some people made a science out of playing this F*cKi@g game on handicaps . . . that was enough to make me say screw this a few years ago and I never went back.
Also, i believe they should Pay or incentivize the finish in the regular league sessions more - do a payout or something. Going to Vegas ain't what its cracked up to be - most pay 50% or more out of pocket even with the league "help", and play matches at some of the most godawful times ever. BCAPL does a much better job with this, and there's a lot less emphasis on handicap. Most have a couple of local tourney's through the year in your town - no travel - a decent payout - and you play above average to very good players almost every match. You want to get better - play someone WHO IS better. Get your ass beat - you'll either learn or leave for a more "comfortable" situation.
APA is losing the better players to competitor's leagues as they do not feel that they have a place. If you have a choice in your area, and you're a 6 or above you go somewhere else as you can't play in the APA handicap system - you basically become a coach or mentor most of the time. Sit around all night and don't play. I'd rather play my buddies and get robbed out of a couple of bucks a game bets then sit around and do what the APA has going on.
But, the APA is a VERY good league for bringing in the beginners and spreading the game out to bigger numbers of pool players in america . . . what it doesn't do a good job of is trying to cater to ALL or MOST levels of pool players - ALL of the people who WOULD play league pool - and regardless of their ability.
APA does get most people who will play OUT to PLAY . . . they will motivate them to come have a weekly social revolving around pool - week in - week out. That is very important! But APA needs to do a "health check", as most players who reach 6 or above leave VERY quickly after attaining it. That's just as big an issue as not having 2's or 3's join in droves, because half of them probably never play out a year or so either. There's frustration on both ends of the spectrum.
we've beat this one down to the fine points good.
I played APA . . . don't have any issues with a league operator making money . . . its a business.
The handicap system sucks. I played both 9 and 8 ball in APA . . . between the 23 deal and some asshole team captains we'd end up some nights having a 7 or 8 play a 2 or 3 handicap - ridiculous.
The team members improve - handicaps go up - bam! End of year you had to break up the team. I do believe that this is a fundamental of the model - its used to spawn MORE teams - MORE money - etc. etc.
IMO non-expert laughable opinion, APA should drop the TEAM handicap for the night - the 23 deal is what pisses off everyone. Make some conditions like everyone who plays that night has to play someone at the same or within one level of their skill level - period. Who gives a rats ass if you go over 23.
The sandbagging can also be rampant in APA from what I saw. Have a couple of "skilled" players doing observations/ratings and you'd stop a lot of what ails the APA. Some players (who were baggers) were swinging 2 - 3 levels during a session or during the year. Maybe 4's or above should never be allowed to go Down - if you proved you have the ability to play at that level - go from a 3 to a 4 - then you are a 4 until you earn a 5. From then on, you are one and you don't change until you improve to the next level. Some people made a science out of playing this F*cKi@g game on handicaps . . . that was enough to make me say screw this a few years ago and I never went back.
Also, i believe they should Pay or incentivize the finish in the regular league sessions more - do a payout or something. Going to Vegas ain't what its cracked up to be - most pay 50% or more out of pocket even with the league "help", and play matches at some of the most godawful times ever. BCAPL does a much better job with this, and there's a lot less emphasis on handicap. Most have a couple of local tourney's through the year in your town - no travel - a decent payout - and you play above average to very good players almost every match. You want to get better - play someone WHO IS better. Get your ass beat - you'll either learn or leave for a more "comfortable" situation.
APA is losing the better players to competitor's leagues as they do not feel that they have a place. If you have a choice in your area, and you're a 6 or above you go somewhere else as you can't play in the APA handicap system - you basically become a coach or mentor most of the time. Sit around all night and don't play. I'd rather play my buddies and get robbed out of a couple of bucks a game bets then sit around and do what the APA has going on.
But, the APA is a VERY good league for bringing in the beginners and spreading the game out to bigger numbers of pool players in america . . . what it doesn't do a good job of is trying to cater to ALL or MOST levels of pool players - ALL of the people who WOULD play league pool - and regardless of their ability.
APA does get most people who will play OUT to PLAY . . . they will motivate them to come have a weekly social revolving around pool - week in - week out. That is very important! But APA needs to do a "health check", as most players who reach 6 or above leave VERY quickly after attaining it. That's just as big an issue as not having 2's or 3's join in droves, because half of them probably never play out a year or so either. There's frustration on both ends of the spectrum.
helps the lower player.
This is a good point, and very true, its actually the best thing that the APA provides.
The bottom line is that the APA is a business
This IS the bottom line
As for sandbaggin. My area does not have sandbaggin problem.
LMFAO...you do not seem to be nieve, perhaps this was a typo.
I've been playing in the APA for several years. My LO pays out roughly 40% cash yearly between the local tourneys and sending teams to Vegas. It's just a nudge above 20%
As for the APA being bad for the sport by generating revenue for local pool halls, bars and businesses in the billiard industry. How is that bad? I don't see the highly skilled players out there trying to do this or much of anything for the sport. Other than complain that they can't get there share of the pie since most seem to think they deserve something for nothing.
The rule is what fuels most of the baggin nation wide...don't be nieve, its very simple. If they raised the 23 rule to say 25 or 27, and the individuals level upwards of 8, or perhaps 9, then the levels of baggin would go way down. Yes, there would still be some going on, but the fact that teams would have to split up less would be much better for the players, and much worse for the APA's bottom line and membership numbers.
DeepBanks, you make a lot of the usual good points, but I cannot agree with this solution. For instance, we have a team in our division (they do both 8-ball and 9-ball) named the Billiard Babes. They are an all-woman team. They are all a bunch of SL2's and SL3's. If a team loaded up with 5's, 6's, and 7's showed up, nobody would play that night. I understand the 23-rule problem, but your solution is slightly flawed.
Maniac
I agree with this statement, in that any organization needs to do a "health check" on a regular basis, and more frequently the larger said organization gets. And perhaps some issues might be addressed for the better. But make mistake, ANY organization or league system will have issues of it's own. I suspect BCA, TAP, Missouri and Ohio will all have some wrinkle or other to be ironed out at some point, too. They just aren't the biggest fish in the pond, so those issues won't get the same attention.
Don't get me wrong. I do not agree with everything my LO does. As a matter of fact, he has some practices that I actively dislike. But I retain my perspective, and realize that he is the one with the responsibility for the entire operation, both the good, and the bad. If it's that bad, then I have the ultimate choice in the matter, not to play in his league. He has every right to make a living doing this.
Your right it is very simple. Why do people sandbag? Is it the 23 rule? NO! The do it because they want an advantage over the other person/team. The 23 rule is a cop out. I have played in numerous leagues the past 19 years. Both handicapped and not. A couple were structured similar to the APA with the handicaps. One had a higher limit (didn't stop any baggin made it easier!) the other doesn't have a limit, you just have to play 1 lower skill level during the night. While I did like the structure and formats, it was not better or worse. Just different. Instead of trying to change it to your liking, why not stay with the one that suits YOU!
I have never been on a team that had to split up because of handicaps. Have been to Vegas numerous times and been in the finals or semi's to go to Vegas every year. We have had to replace a couple of players but plan ahead for that. We don't look for the best 3's or 4's we look for chemistry. When we replace a player it's usually with a new player that's just learning to play. I will take time to teach them as best I can and enjoy helping them. I love the sport and helping people learn. I may not be a very good teacher or highly skilled player like most on this board, but I get off my ass and give back the best I can instead of bicthing about what pool owes me.