APA.........You Do the Math.

[C_Whip]

First let me say I have no pony in this race,

either do I, I think all leagues have pros & cons.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

Going by your math, do you really think that your LO is pocketing your $698,000 difference? Do you know that a majority of your weekly dues goes to the St Louis office for their $1Mil nationals payout (and staff salaries)? Does your LO have an office staff that requires salaries? How about an office with rent payments? Did he/she buy the franchise as a current franchise, which would cost a lot in capital investment, or develop it into a large one through his efforts?

I currently only play BCA myself but I don't HATE either.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

No doubt the LO's must be doing all right. I just had some moron LO from Pennsylvania call my cell phone and leave a threatening message.

I said earlier in the thread that many (not all) APA LO's use thug-like tactics. This corroborates what I said.

LO's are in a tough position. They own a franchise. One that is centrally governed by the corporate APA. That means they are stuck having to defend a horrible system, crappy rules and other negative aspects of the APA. It is understandable that APA LO's get worked up into a lather over criticism because the APA is their bread.

However, the proper way to handle it is not to threaten people. It's to either counter the criticism with the benefits and positive aspects of the APA (and let the free market decide) or to prove the criticism as being false. Not to call up cuemakers and threaten them, or threaten room owners like some wannabe mafioso.

 

[markpatrick]

League Operator making a killing

First let me say I have no pony in this race, just wanted to throw out what i see in my local apa league. Let me also say apa lo you sound like a great lo and I wish i had you as mine, if you ran my apa it might be the biggest in the nation, right now we are in the top 10 in members.

The op was about the math so lets DO THE MATH. These numbers will not be exact but just give an idea of the apa in my area. Like i stated before my region is in the top 10, I don't know exact rank but i have heard as high at 2 as low as 7. We have somewhere around +/-700 teams playing 8ball, 9 ball and dj 7 days a week. Our weekly fees are $30 per week for 8 ball, $30 for 9 ball( this may have changed i haven't played only 9 ball in a while) and $48 for DJ regardless if the bar pays all, some or none.

700 teams a week x 30 = $21,000 a week in league fees alone. (This number will be higher as there are several DJ teams.) So lets assume around 20% of teams by dj, which would be a fair guess so 140 teams. To keep the numbers simple lets say 150.

(550x30) + (150x48) = 16500 + 7200+ = $23,700 a week in league fees.


Three sessions of 13, 14, 13 weeks = 40 We have 6 weeks of playoffs, 2 at the end of each session but not all the teams play so to keep it simple i'll leave it off.

23,700 x 40 = $948,000 in weekly fees alone. This isn't including the $25 yearly league fee, which i guess most gets sent back to corporate so I'll leave it off as well.

Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

Just how much of that money do you think Terry and Larry let the league operators keep?

They may get to keep a 1/3, Larry and Terry get 2/3. Just a guess. Have not see the books or tax returns but they are probably public record.

 

[LeagueGuy]

You guys all keep saying it yourself.

The marketplace will decide whether the APA is going to survive or not.

But that is not good enough for the majority of the negative guys on this thread.

You all, and that includes you Mr. Griffin, seem to think that you have to post speculation and call them facts, post fabrications and use other slanderous tactics in order to try to influence what the market has already decided

The marketplace says the APA has 250,000 players and the next closest has less that 3.5 times that. There are 7 or 8 other leagues now and the APA has survived all the challenges and will likely continue to do so.

So why don't you pleaes do us all a favour and shut up so that the market can actually decide. In 2-3 years if another league has grown even close to what the APA is, then you will have proved your point.

Right now most of you negative posters are coming off like a bunch of crybabies who can't seem to convince 250,000 other people to share your opinions. Agian - shut up and let the market decide. Just don't complain when you don't like the result.

 

[beav99_4life]

You guys all keep saying it yourself.

The marketplace will decide whether the APA is going to survive or not.

But that is not good enough for the majority of the negative guys on this thread.

You all, and that includes you Mr. Griffin, seem to think that you have to post speculation and call them facts, post fabrications and use other slanderous tactics in order to try to influence what the market has already decided

The marketplace says the APA has 250,000 players and the next closest has less that 3.5 times that. There are 7 or 8 other leagues now and the APA has survived all the challenges and will likely continue to do so.

So why don't you pleaes do us all a favour and shut up so that the market can actually decide. In 2-3 years if another league has grown even close to what the APA is, then you will have proved your point.

Right now most of you negative posters are coming off like a bunch of crybabies who can't seem to convince 250,000 other people to share your opinions. Agian - shut up and let the market decide. Just don't complain when you don't like the result.

Ahh, another articulate and highly educational post. Thank you for your invaluable input. This post has brought the light to all of us "crybabies". Maybe we'll just "shut up" for you now.

 

[Blackball75]

I've been playing for 9 weeks in APA 8-ball and am really enjoying it. It seems ideal for a novice like me (SL4) who wants to play league pool, meet like-minded people and have fun. It also seems like an excellent springboard from which to develop and improve one's pool skills and ability.

My LO is a nice guy, and no, I don't think he's "screwing" me (or anyone else) in any way. Neither do I get any impression at all that he's rolling in money which he fleeced off us loser pool-players. Rather the opposite; I really think he's doing what he does because he loves pool and he loves people.

On the national level I don't care that much what the APA makes. They are generally good for pool and provide a lot of people with a lot of fun. Sure, they are making a profit from my hobby, but all sports organizations do this. In the same way, Predator cues and Master chalk make a profit from my hobby. So what? That's how they survive (and in some cases how competitive events in that sport survive). As long as they plow back a reasonable percentage of their profit into developing the sport, what their shareholders get is a periphery issue as far as I'm concerned. Let them worry about the business. I'm there to play pool.

The only - minor - complaint I have about the APA 8-ball league system, is that I'd like to see the top 3 teams from Division Playoffs receive some kind of cash or other reward for attaining overall positions 1, 2 and 3 in the Division. ATM it seems even winning a Division and then the Playoffs means that a shot at the ultimate prize in Vegas is a very long way off. More immediate and specific prizes or awards for winning team members would be nice.

An APA-sanctioned "ladder"-style league for individuals would also be awesome.

Just my $0.02.

Of course everyone has opinions (we live in a democracy) and not everyone will like how the APA does things. But this one guy's pretty happy with them anyway.

 

[RackRunner]

Well I made it to page three before I skipped to the end of this discussion. I have a good friend of mine who is an APA LO. He's actually the one who introduced me to the APA. I was put on a team by him to help out the team. I, like so many others was then lured in with the dream of making it to Vegas for the National Team Championships in August. I left the first team to start my own team and we proceeded to win the LTC and we went to Vegas my first full year being involved with the APA. My friend, the APA LO then proceeded to tell me he wouldn't let me play in his league the following year because he had teams complaining and threatening to quit if he let my team play. I guess it's a good thing I live so close to another state...as I took some players from year one and added some more and proceeded to win my second LTC and we were off to Vegas two years in a row. Year three and now my friend says I can play in his league again. After two years in Vegas I learned real quick what it would take to win a national championship, and unfortunately that means sandbagging your asses off. When in Rome, do as the Romans. I built a team full of 7's and everyone in the league (including the APA LO) knew the skill levels of each of the players on my team. BUT, not until we were in the finals of the LTC did my "friend" the APA LO decide to bump one of my players to a 6. When I asked him why, he said he bumped him because of "known ability", to which I replied, "you've known about his ability all year long." So I have no doubt that the APA LO was trying to make it as hard as possible for my team to "Threepeat", but we won for the third year in a row. Only problem, the losing Captain decides to file a complaint with the APA National Office, so now we're getting off the plane in Vegas with a target on our backs, right from the start. Myself and one other 7 did not see playing time that whole tournament. We ended up having to play with four players our last two matches. I tell you this for this reason...

The APA is nothing but a brilliant business plan to make the guys at the top a lot of money. I don't begrudge them that, and I don't care if the league operators make a ton of money either. My issue with the APA is simply the 23 rule, and the fact that there is no box to mark down a "lucky" shot. You have a box to mark a defensive shot, but what about when a player misses his/her intended pocket but a ball falls into a different pocket? They continue to shoot and no where is there a space so the LO knows it was a lucky shot. It makes the player appear to be better than they actually are. Therefore their scores/innings are better and they eventually get their handicap raised up. They do this on purpose so one team becomes two, two become four, four become eight and so on, and the APA grows exponentially. Great business plan. But the fact of the matter is, I signed up to play with my teammates, the guys/girls that I wanted to hang out with and play pool with. Now because of the 23 rule, we had to split our team up (3 times). I ran out of players that I wanted to play with, and so I for one quit playing in a league that counts slop in the games but doesn't want to keep track of it on the scoresheet...

 

[Cory in DC]

NoBull

No way you can make money playing Leagues or is that my intention. But It is nice to know your hard earned money is staying in town to support local venues. Our Last place team even gets money back at the awards banquet.

Another Bone I have to pick with APA is the secret handicap system. At least in BCA everything is out in the open and anyone can do the math.

Why pay the last place team? You could just scale down the dues and reach the same place. All that does is loan the LO some money until the end of the season? And make people feel good when they get handed money for coming in last???

 

[APA LO]

Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

This is exactly why you should contact your league operator before attempting to do the math. If you don't have all the information, it's a futile effort that will leave all of us wondering what is missing.

You mentioned trophies, but you didn't assign a dollar amount. With 700 teams and numerous winners, that's a lot of trophies. Trophies, plaques and patches/pins cost quite a bit of money 3 times a year and in big events like city championships.

No mention of individual achievements. Does your 700 team LO really not do any kind of MVP tournaments or awards for top shooters?

You mention tricup, money cup and city championships as three separate tournaments. The very definition of a tricup is 3 tournaments. Are you absolutely positive there aren't 3 tricups a year and there is one money cup and one city championship?

You mention that only two teams from this 700 team league went to Nationals. That's not even close. I'm only a little over half that size and I send about 10 teams. I'm guessing it's probably closer to 16 or 18 teams.

I'm going to go ahead and call you on the $2500 per team to Nationals, also. You did mention travel, and that's probably right. But, it also costs money to put these players in hotels for the 6 nights the team will be there, and that's a rather hefty expense as well. Especially when you are sending somewhere close to 18 teams.

I have a list of things that I also offer back in the form of cash and prizes, and I wouldn't be surprised if the LO you are doing the math for also has their list of things they pay back in prize money. How many things are missing from the list?

Finally, in a perfect world where one wants to break down the math, there are no holidays, no acts of god that cancel league play and there most certainly aren't any byes. I can't begin to tell you how much uncollected money you have calculated into your theorem for teams that didn't play due to byes in the schedule.

It's nearly impossible to sit there with a calculator to factor in every single prize payout when you are doing it completely blind to every faction of the LO's administration of the league. Heck, I'd have a tough time doing it for myself each year if I didn't track each and every expense all year long.

If someone wants to make it appear as though the LO only paid out 20% or less, it's pretty easy to casually forget some significant sized expenses. I'm not saying you have done this here and that you aren't making an honest attempt to do the math, but I have to say I'm pretty sure you are either forgetting some things or you just aren't aware of things that are missing.

The best person to ask where all the money goes is the LO him/herself. They'd probably be happy to point out all the things they pay out that you might not have even realized they do. They might even have a list of all the things they pay out listed right in their bylaws.

 

[Scott Lee]

Blackball75...Your local L.O. can payout any way they see fit. They do not have to "conform" to any national standard. The national office 'offers' advice, but does not require the L.O. to follow it, regarding how prizes are paid out. Maybe if you get a petition going, and enough members in your league area sign it, the L.O. will do what you're asking.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The only - minor - complaint I have about the APA 8-ball league system, is that I'd like to see the top 3 teams from Division Playoffs receive some kind of cash or other reward for attaining overall positions 1, 2 and 3 in the Division. ATM it seems even winning a Division and then the Playoffs means that a shot at the ultimate prize in Vegas is a very long way off. More immediate and specific prizes or awards for winning team members would be nice.

An APA-sanctioned "ladder"-style league for individuals would also be awesome.
.

 

[Ball Banger]

Why pay the last place team? You could just scale down the dues and reach the same place. All that does is loan the LO some money until the end of the season? And make people feel good when they get handed money for coming in last???

Cory

Our League might be a money league but we are more interested in the social part than the money. Many of our teams party together when they aren't playing pool. To have a cap on handicaps would really hurt these different social groups. Our banquets are a group party and we want everyone to have fun. Our bars are not open so the extra money for the last place teams helps pay the Bar bill. Truth of the matter is the First Place team doesn't really make any money after you take out weekly expenses.

 

[markpatrick]

We won our division and did not get a DIME

Why pay the last place team? You could just scale down the dues and reach the same place. All that does is loan the LO some money until the end of the season? And make people feel good when they get handed money for coming in last???

What are you talking about getting money for last place>?

Where the hell is this league at.? West Virginia?:frown::frown::frown:

 

[markpatrick]

No one in our league got a DIME

Blackball75...Your local L.O. can payout any way they see fit. They do not have to "conform" to any national standard. The national office 'offers' advice, but does not require the L.O. to follow it, regarding how prizes are paid out. Maybe if you get a petition going, and enough members in your league area sign it, the L.O. will do what you're asking.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Probably RULE 1, do not pay out anyone unless they win the Regional them give them part of the funds needed to make it to Vegas and arrange for kickbacks to Hubbard and Bell for each room reservation made.

GIve me a break. You want to play for fun? Start a fun league with no entry fee in your area. Let me know how that works out for you.????

 

[overtaker]

sad sad bca

When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.

Don't people in the BCA office have better things to do than put messages up on this waste of time. Wait I forgot, not much going in bca, lol

 

[Banks]

Ok, which of you needs a kleenex? Wah wah waaah. Sheesh.

Most of the people that I've heard locally ***** about APA are 5s and 6s, maybe the occassional 7. One guy tried to tell me he left APA for BCA because of a lack of competition. He said I was his only competition remaining in the division.. that was pretty funny, seeing as how I'm not sure if he beat me even a handful of times over a few years, while I still think there's plenty of competition. Want practice? Try taking 5 before an "on" 5 or 6 get their 3 or 4.

Want to talk about math? Tell me how many group hobbies there are out there where you can hang out and drink while dishing out as little as $1.50/hr for the activity. Most of the players I know are 3-6 and they play because they are competitive and enjoy the game. The lower people would like to get better, but it is just cost and/or time prohibitive.

As far as whether the handicaps work.. in BCA 8, balls are counted. That really means nothing when you get run out or have no strategy play when you constantly fail to run out. APA 9 taught me that controlling my opponent's shot is as critical to a win as making my own shots. Each league's rules have their ups and downs.

Considering I drink and smoke, $7 or $14 once a week really isn't much figuring I *may* get money back and I get free table time here and there. Hell, sometimes I'll use a practice table and not even play that night or I'll be allowed to use a practice table on a night that I don't play league.

If this league hustle was such easy money, why doesn't everybody start one? I've said it before.. I don't think you could pay me enough to deal with some of the pool players out there.

 

[APA Operator]

Really?

You could have just given us the short version of your story. "I cheated, I got caught. In the process I robbed honest players of three trips to Vegas. I don't play APA any more because of slop and the 23 rule."

You expect us to believe that's really why you no longer play APA? Come on, you were fine with the rules until you got caught cheating.

Well I made it to page three before I skipped to the end of this discussion. I have a good friend of mine who is an APA LO. He's actually the one who introduced me to the APA. I was put on a team by him to help out the team. I, like so many others was then lured in with the dream of making it to Vegas for the National Team Championships in August. I left the first team to start my own team and we proceeded to win the LTC and we went to Vegas my first full year being involved with the APA. My friend, the APA LO then proceeded to tell me he wouldn't let me play in his league the following year because he had teams complaining and threatening to quit if he let my team play. I guess it's a good thing I live so close to another state...as I took some players from year one and added some more and proceeded to win my second LTC and we were off to Vegas two years in a row. Year three and now my friend says I can play in his league again. After two years in Vegas I learned real quick what it would take to win a national championship, and unfortunately that means sandbagging your asses off. When in Rome, do as the Romans. I built a team full of 7's and everyone in the league (including the APA LO) knew the skill levels of each of the players on my team. BUT, not until we were in the finals of the LTC did my "friend" the APA LO decide to bump one of my players to a 6. When I asked him why, he said he bumped him because of "known ability", to which I replied, "you've known about his ability all year long." So I have no doubt that the APA LO was trying to make it as hard as possible for my team to "Threepeat", but we won for the third year in a row. Only problem, the losing Captain decides to file a complaint with the APA National Office, so now we're getting off the plane in Vegas with a target on our backs, right from the start. Myself and one other 7 did not see playing time that whole tournament. We ended up having to play with four players our last two matches. I tell you this for this reason...

The APA is nothing but a brilliant business plan to make the guys at the top a lot of money. I don't begrudge them that, and I don't care if the league operators make a ton of money either. My issue with the APA is simply the 23 rule, and the fact that there is no box to mark down a "lucky" shot. You have a box to mark a defensive shot, but what about when a player misses his/her intended pocket but a ball falls into a different pocket? They continue to shoot and no where is there a space so the LO knows it was a lucky shot. It makes the player appear to be better than they actually are. Therefore their scores/innings are better and they eventually get their handicap raised up. They do this on purpose so one team becomes two, two become four, four become eight and so on, and the APA grows exponentially. Great business plan. But the fact of the matter is, I signed up to play with my teammates, the guys/girls that I wanted to hang out with and play pool with. Now because of the 23 rule, we had to split our team up (3 times). I ran out of players that I wanted to play with, and so I for one quit playing in a league that counts slop in the games but doesn't want to keep track of it on the scoresheet...

 

[Eieio59]

Just how much of that money do you think Terry and Larry let the league operators keep?

They may get to keep a 1/3, Larry and Terry get 2/3. Just a guess. Have not see the books or tax returns but they are probably public record.

So, when are you making YOUR tax returns public? Just wondering :smile:

 

[Eieio59]

Probably RULE 1, do not pay out anyone unless they win the Regional them give them part of the funds needed to make it to Vegas and arrange for kickbacks to Hubbard and Bell for each room reservation made.

GIve me a break. You want to play for fun? Start a fun league with no entry fee in your area. Let me know how that works out for you.????

Mark Patrick.... this is not pointed at you.....just couldn't get my regular reply to work!!!!

Do you not understand that this is a BUSINESS. WE run our business and our CUSTOMERS have the right to choose not to play or to play. If we were truly giving unsatisfactory service to them, they would simply just choose not to play, just as you would choose not to shop at a particular store if you didn't agree with their policies. The APA is not a league put together by somebody who wants a hobby on the side, who has another full-time job to support them. The APA is run by business people who treat it as such and sell a product/service to their customers, who - again - have the right to say no at any time and leave. Apparently, since the APA has over 250,000 members, their CUSTOMERS must approve.:smile: What I think happens here on this board is that NON-customers who do not, for whatever reason, like the APA or, have an agenda against it - tend to try to disclose to everyone how much money everyone makes running the APA and to disclose everything that THEY don't like about the APA. NOW - if this was truly an APA player who was having issues, they have several lines of recourse: 1) they could contact their local league operator; 2) if that didn't satisfy them, they could contact APA National office; 3) quit, if they didn't like how the National Office responded - and I assure you they respond.

Obviously this is not the case, however, as the same players over and over again continue to bash the APA on every possible thread. If you don't have a horse in the race, why bet? If you do have a horse in the race, why complain here - why not go thru the proper channels? If you have gone thru the proper channels and don't like what you see/hear, why play? It is a never ending cycle - and it gets old.

You must realize that when that when you say these things you are attacking someones credibility and most people will take offense to it, just as I do. I have been in the pool and billiard industry my entire life and if you can find ONE SINGLE person who will tell you that I have EVER ripped them off, cheated or whatever, I'll apologize to you VERY publicly..... so please be more careful when you throw around these types of comments.

Here's my final comment: If YOU want to PLAY in a funsy league, then please - start one yourself...... please put up your own money for advertising, gas, insurance, office products, etc, etc, etc..... THEN continue to pour your money into it for all of these things while you struggle to pay your bills (because you simply can't work a full time job and run your league). Be sure to put the 60+ hours per week into running and advertising your league, work 32 weekends out of the year (oh, and on those weekends - they aren't 8 hour days.....)...... do this for a few years, and then - maybe then..... you will call the APA office and ask how YOU can buy a franchise! By that time, you will be so tired of DOING IT FOR FREE, you might understand.

 

[justadub]

Probably RULE 1, do not pay out anyone unless they win the Regional them give them part of the funds needed to make it to Vegas and arrange for kickbacks to Hubbard and Bell for each room reservation made.

GIve me a break. You want to play for fun? Start a fun league with no entry fee in your area. Let me know how that works out for you.????

Just to point out that not all APA areas operate the same as what YOU might be used to...

We won our Division playoffs last session. Our team split $800 between us. The second place team split $400 between them. $1200 in our division that session.

Multiply that by three sessions. $1200 x 3 = $3600

Multiply that by 2 (number of divisions our LO has) $3600 x 2 = $7200

Thats just here in little old backwoods Maine. In payouts for winning your Division session. BEFORE going to any Regionals. And our LO still sends I believe 5 teams to Vegas in the end.

So some actually DO make a little bit of scratch from playing in our league, and our LO does pay out a pretty fair amount. Certainly not to the level all your hot-shot players expect, not bad for a "fun" League.

Darn it, I guess he didn't see Rule Number 1, huh?

 

[cuesmith]

Mark Patrick.... this is not pointed at you.....just couldn't get my regular reply to work!!!!

Do you not understand that this is a BUSINESS. WE run our business and our CUSTOMERS have the right to choose not to play or to play. If we were truly giving unsatisfactory service to them, they would simply just choose not to play, just as you would choose not to shop at a particular store if you didn't agree with their policies. The APA is not a league put together by somebody who wants a hobby on the side, who has another full-time job to support them. The APA is run by business people who treat it as such and sell a product/service to their customers, who - again - have the right to say no at any time and leave. Apparently, since the APA has over 250,000 members, their CUSTOMERS must approve.:smile: What I think happens here on this board is that NON-customers who do not, for whatever reason, like the APA or, have an agenda against it - tend to try to disclose to everyone how much money everyone makes running the APA and to disclose everything that THEY don't like about the APA. NOW - if this was truly an APA player who was having issues, they have several lines of recourse: 1) they could contact their local league operator; 2) if that didn't satisfy them, they could contact APA National office; 3) quit, if they didn't like how the National Office responded - and I assure you they respond.

Obviously this is not the case, however, as the same players over and over again continue to bash the APA on every possible thread. If you don't have a horse in the race, why bet? If you do have a horse in the race, why complain here - why not go thru the proper channels? If you have gone thru the proper channels and don't like what you see/hear, why play? It is a never ending cycle - and it gets old.

You must realize that when that when you say these things you are attacking someones credibility and most people will take offense to it, just as I do. I have been in the pool and billiard industry my entire life and if you can find ONE SINGLE person who will tell you that I have EVER ripped them off, cheated or whatever, I'll apologize to you VERY publicly..... so please be more careful when you throw around these types of comments.

Here's my final comment: If YOU want to PLAY in a funsy league, then please - start one yourself...... please put up your own money for advertising, gas, insurance, office products, etc, etc, etc..... THEN continue to pour your money into it for all of these things while you struggle to pay your bills (because you simply can't work a full time job and run your league). Be sure to put the 60+ hours per week into running and advertising your league, work 32 weekends out of the year (oh, and on those weekends - they aren't 8 hour days.....)...... do this for a few years, and then - maybe then..... you will call the APA office and ask how YOU can buy a franchise! By that time, you will be so tired of DOING IT FOR FREE, you might understand.

I too hope to make this my last comment on the subject!

First I don't begrudge the APA making a living, even a GOOD living. Especially the league operators. I know it's a thankless job with more headaches than Carters has little liver pills (just showing my age there). But ....

You should not think because you have 250,000 members that they are happy or even satisfied with the system! I assure you the vast majority of them think it sucks! But in a lot of cases it's "the only game in town" for them anyway.

The concept of a night out with your friends, playing pool is very inviting. In the beginning things seem pretty innoculous but the longer one plays in the APA the more they realize what a rediculous system it really is. Sure you still have your night out, but you've likely had to split your team up and form teams with new players. For some this type of social interaction may be just the ticket, but most want to play pool and don't like being told who they can play with.

Anyone who says that sandbagging isn't a HUGE problem in the APA is either naive or simply a liar! The sandbagging is obviously fueled in large part due to the infamous "23 rule"! This "23 rule" is strictly an instrument used to divide teams and create more of them, thereby bringing in more money for the APA heads, LO's, bar owners etc. While this may seem like a good thing, bringing more players to the sport etc.... That's what the APA would like you to believe! BUT the harm done by forcing people to sandbag way more than outweighs the the benefit of more players. Give the people a league that rewards them for improving, helps people who want to advance beyond the amateur rankings and gives something back to the sport in the way of pro tournament sponsorship and I think you'll see some improvement in the way the sport is perceived.

I understand that a lot of the LO's are hard working, conscientious people who are very much interested in the sport. They also are caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't blame them for defending their business interests, but the LO's need to let St. Louis know that people aren't satisfied with status quo. That if they want to continue to lead the market they'll have to change before someone does put the time effort and money into making a league that people will be satisfied with. If they wait til that happens it will be too late, the bubble will burst! Personally I'd rather see the APA correct the flaws in their system and really become the model pool league they try to make people think they are. They already have the infrastructure. But I'm afraid they are doomed to their own greed and are too stubborn and greedy to make the changes for the better! And here I'm refering to the top of the food chain, not the LO's.

I'm off the soap box, wasted too much time arguing what I see as the obvious!