APA.........You Do the Math.

[KRJ]

Hmmm

Did you ever bother to read the rule book. It states that dues are due during playoffs but I am sure that would have been too much trouble. It is a lot easier to blame someone else. whaaaaaaa

OK, listen up. Did I blame anyone?? NO... just read my post. Again, the complaint is the APA is in business for one thing, to make as much money as possible. Whether or not it states the playoff payment in the rule book doesn't make it right.

Yeah, I didn't read the stupid APA rule book and I do mean STUPID. Here is a national organization that is bastardizing the game of 8 ball so more and more people can grow up to learn some ass backward rules. WHY? Just because they are newer type players, why can't they learn the rules of the game the correct way... I guess when I coached my son's t-ball games, I should have told him that 3 strikes means you go to thirdbase !! This is the biggest problem with APA besides the no money back to players as it ALL goes to the APA and LO..... except for the lucky one team that gets to go to Vegas !!! WOW, take in over $100K and send a team to Vegas,,, thanks, but no thanks. BUt, if anyone likes the set up, format and rules, then go for it and stick with it. But don't knock the ones that don't like it because most of us are the ones who have played in just about every league set up imaginable, and know the difference between the good leagues and the complete inferior ones !!

 

[KRJ]

nice

I've been trying to avoid posting anymore in this thread, I've already stated my point clearly and no one has yet to really address any of the issues truthfully. You and the other LO's are defending your businesses and I respect that! I've been a small businessman for over 40 years and if you think that's easy you haven't a clue! I've owned pool bars and pool rooms with APA teams. One of the selling points in the LO's pitch was how the "23 rule" was designed to work. I have to admit that from a bar owners prospective the concept sounded good, until the ramifications gradually became clear. I tried doing things the way you should in respect to handicaps and found out how screwed up the system is. We played the numbers game for a while just to keep together but it just wasn't worth it. I don't care how much the LO's make, I know they earn every penny and have a lot of expenses. I'd have to be guaranteed a 7 figure income to consider doing the job (again. was a LO in a different league) and I doubt any of them are making that much! My complaint is still the use of the "23 rule" to populate more teams, which is the primary cause of the sandbagging situation and numbers games.
I won't take the position that you're lying about not having any teams in your league that have split up due to handicaps in the past 5 years, BUT if this is true you have probably the worse case of sandbagging in the country for the players to keep their handicaps where NO teams have had to split!!!!! That is probably the most rediculous statement I've ever heard from anyone in regards to the APA league! You have to understand, I'm not new to the APA, I started in it when it was in it's infancy as the Busch Pool League. I even have one of the OLD fake neon "Busch Pool League" sign's on my basement wall. I've captained many teams and played on others. Got as attic full of trophys from 6" to 3' tall from them. Been there done that! From the beginning, I was in the bar business and was aware of the situation. I didn't like the "23 rule" from the get go and have never been shy about voicing my opinion about it. Like any bad rule, if no one complains, nothing will change. At this point, I wouldn't play in the APA if they let _ME_ write the rules and it was free! I have no interest in being in a bar with drunks. Spent too much time in the bar business to enjoy that! But I'll still try to let the people who still enjoy this activity, know why they're in the situation they're in. Not many understand the system and most just go with the flow. If you league operators really believe that a majority of the people in the leagues are happy with the "23 rule" , the handicap system, the sandbagging, and yes the payouts (which meant nothing to me, I know it's a recreational activity, not a business for the players and don't really care as much about the money aspect as the unfair rules just to make more for "St. Louis"! ) then you're either in denial, very naive or aren't listening!
I'm going to try to refrain from posting in this thread anymore. I hope we can all just let it drop. You're not going to change the league, my mind or yours apparently so we'll just have to agree to disagree!

Well Said !!! In my only second and last session of APA, my team of neighbors and family members are on the verge of not playing together, unless of coure I go out and find another 2 and make sure they lose consistently to stay a 2 so the rest of us can still shoot !!! NO THANKS..

 

[LeagueGuy]

This is the biggest problem with APA besides the no money back to players as it ALL goes to the APA and LO..... except for the lucky one team that gets to go to Vegas !!! WOW, take in over $100K and send a team to Vegas,,, thanks, but no thanks. !!

Ok Lets do the math on this complaint.

If a league operator takes in $100,000 a year asuming the fees are $8 per player (maybe high) then with 45 weeks of play they would by my calculation be approx 55 teams in that league. A league with 55 teams gets to send 2 or 3 teams to Las Vegas not just 1.

My APA league that i play in has about that number of teams and we send 3 teams to Vegas every year. 2 8-ball and 1 9-ball.

Everyone is entiltled to thier opinion on the APA and whether they like it or not but please do not cloud the isssus with false information. There are a number of people on here with an agenda aginast the APA and very few of us vocal minoprity to support it. Why is it the someof those (not all) with the negative comments have to make up fake number to try to prove their point.

 

[LeagueGuy]

Well Said !!! In my only second and last session of APA, my team of neighbors and family members are on the verge of not playing together, unless of coure I go out and find another 2 and make sure they lose consistently to stay a 2 so the rest of us can still shoot !!! NO THANKS..

If what you are saying is true, the "family and neighbors" have all attained higher skill levels than a 3 in the first sesssion they played. That tells me that they were in most cases avid pool players to begin with and you should have seen that coming. New players to the game do not reach a skill of 4 for at least 3 sessions in my number of years of experience.

You put together a team full of higher skilled players in a league that caters to the lower skilled players and then run into handicap trouble. Go figure. Then you have the nerve to blame the APA for it.

Seems to me that the captain is at fault here and is just looking for someone else to blame.

 

[markpatrick]

No I live in a meager 200K house, no mortgage

They do not live in a gated community. It is nice but now gated.

sounds like you are just a little jealous. Maybe you can win enough playing in that MO ate a ball league to move on up to a DEElux apt. in the sky

All my vehicles are paid off, it is you my friend who find yourself bewildered by having to work for a living while individuals such as myself have been able to save enough money to determine my destiny.

Just introduce yourself sometime and let me know what it is in regards to and we can go from there.

I just spoke to a guy tonight that actually won the APA tournament, they got 10000 bucks and a trophy that was 6 foot tall. Nice trophy.

Do not have time to respond to all your BS post. So, this addresses them ALL.

 

[markpatrick]

What do you do? Cut their yards?

They do not live in a gated community. It is nice but now gated.

sounds like you are just a little jealous. Maybe you can win enough playing in that MO ate a ball league to move on up to a DEElux apt. in the sky

Learn to spell NEWBIE

 

[markpatrick]

League Guy is RIGHT

Ok Lets do the math on this complaint.

If a league operator takes in $100,000 a year asuming the fees are $8 per player (maybe high) then with 45 weeks of play they would by my calculation be approx 55 teams in that league. A league with 55 teams gets to send 2 or 3 teams to Las Vegas not just 1.

My APA league that i play in has about that number of teams and we send 3 teams to Vegas every year. 2 8-ball and 1 9-ball.

Everyone is entiltled to thier opinion on the APA and whether they like it or not but please do not cloud the isssus with false information. There are a number of people on here with an agenda aginast the APA and very few of us vocal minoprity to support it. Why is it the someof those (not all) with the negative comments have to make up fake number to try to prove their point.

Some people play in the APA just for the enjoyment of playing in a league, with the pie in the sky chance for Vegas. I have done so myself as have many of my friends. So, KUDOs to the APA league players. Keep your head up, your beer bottle in the air and keep whacking balls.

FOr those of us that like to play in a league that you can win 7000 bucks locally every 4 months and not leave town, we will stay on our side of town. It is time for this thread to die. Before we start tracking IP addresses and restricting access or better yet air.

 

[jrt30004]

......................................

 

[markpatrick]

My thread was addressed to the replicated IP address

The guy that has 18 post and 2 screen names.

People know where I am at as well. At any tournament within 400 miles of St Louis that adds 2500 or more.

I was in Atlanta a couple weeks ago for a car race but that is about it.

Anyone want to buy some APA patches?

Do you know when the Busch League started there were no handicap limits? That is right you got together the best players and put a team together.
Then they implemented the 36 rule, which after a couple years dropped to the 32 rule, then the 26 rule and finally what we have today the 23 rule. If 2 of your players get moved up in Vegas you are disqualified. SWEET.

What is the point? Do not have one. Do not need one. Dennis this post is for you and Ed.

 

[jrt30004]

The guy that has 18 post and 2 screen names.

People know where I am at as well. At any tournament within 400 miles of St Louis that adds 2500 or more.

I was in Atlanta a couple weeks ago for a car race but that is about it.

Anyone want to buy some APA patches?

Do you know when the Busch League started there were no handicap limits? That is right you got together the best players and put a team together.
Then they implemented the 36 rule, which after a couple years dropped to the 32 rule, then the 26 rule and finally what we have today the 23 rule. If 2 of your players get moved up in Vegas you are disqualified. SWEET.

What is the point? Do not have one. Do not need one. Dennis this post is for you and Ed.

mark i understand your verbally battling a troll in this thread but your insulting a large group of people at the same the time. i deleated my post so as not to perpetuate this garbarge but i am guessing you may have read it judging by your post above. i stand by what i said and in case you didn't read it or anyone else wants to know - good for you. you quit the apa. glad for you and your 8 ball league. stop knocking the apa, we're not all bangers and morons. and don't openly threaten people on the internet. talking about "cutting of people's air" winds up making everyone uncomfortable. including those of us who aren't directly fighting with you but are offended by some of your posts. and here's why, i disagree with you, i don't like some of your posts. now i post and disagree. are you going to threaten me next? and i as said in my orginal post some of us don't play apa to go to vegas - we play to play. i've gotten moved up and had to switch teams multiple times and i could care less. i am glad you like your 8 ball league better than the apa. i don't. i enjoy playing different people every session. i am also sorry you don't get anything from you local apa. here in atlanta we get some decent prizes. i also don't want you to think i am a blind supporter of the apa. there is a sheer tonage of things i don't like about it. i just also don't like people calling me a drunken banger because i play in it. if you don't like this next time you're in atlanta look me up and we can talk more.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Well Said !!! In my only second and last session of APA, my team of neighbors and family members are on the verge of not playing together, unless of coure I go out and find another 2 and make sure they lose consistently to stay a 2 so the rest of us can still shoot !!! NO THANKS..

It's sad but you are punished for getting better and playing fair. The skill level system encourages sandbagging. LOL.

Andrew on the first page mentioned it. If you are playing in the APA and looking for money to come back then you are doing it wrong. In my opinion the APA is good for only one thing. Decent, Cheap, consistant competition. the rules and handicap system blows and you have to reconignize that in order to somewhat enjoy yourself. Hell, I hate it, but it's cheap competition with other players around my caliber.

If you are in the APA to get something back (other then practice) then you need to re-assess your situation. Very little money is paid out to the majority of the players. The only ones who have any decent type of benefit are the ones who win the trips to Vegas. Yes the money intake is waaaayyy larger then the payout. For this area it has to be. We send a slew of teams to vegas each year and the LO here has an entire office staff. Money has to go to the building lease/rent. Office Supplies. Salaries. Renting a Hall for a board of governors meeting. Expenses for food at the meetings.

I'm not trying to defend them really but to say the LO's bring in 7 figures for them selves is pretty ****ing absurd. I'm sure they are doing pretty well as they should. We have the largest APA league in the country here, they deserve something good in return for creating such a successful business.

Heath<----MD player. Shoots in the APA but doesnt really like it. Not good enough to quit it.

 

[Maniac]

It is time for this thread to die.

Call in a priest for cryin' out loud !!!

Maniac

 

[markpatrick]

League Operator Discretion, Some have more than others !!!!

Hey I forgot I did get an APA sweat towel when I played in the team captain tournament.

Sweet.

The $50 I got from Missouri 8 ball was a bunch sweeter.

Leagues are intended to bring new players in - Yesterday, 07:01 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by poolplayer2093
i had a blast when i played in a league. i met a lot of good people and i still enjoy running into them. While i was in the league i did meet a couple of really good players though.

Contrary to my prior post, I recently discussed this with a friend who used to be my boss and is a league operator. His league pays out $3 per point a team earns. In addition to other events for the players.

All be it all I got was a APA towel, I use it to wipe the tears everytime I think about all the beer I could have gotten had my LO paid out by the point. Thats a good party since both me and my wife played on the team.

So, this is where my post in negative tone against the APA end. It depends on your league operator. If you want to play in a league find out going in what the payouts are? A chance for Vegas or a chance for Vegas plus a few bucks for us 3s and 4s that play just to drink and spend an evening with friends.

The money just makes it more fun, at least for me.

Me and the wife $14 bucks a week for fees. $30 a week for beer.
$3 bucks a point, would have enabled us a decent dinner at Red Lobster or better yet a pool date night of quarters and BEER.

The League Operator I spoke to probably has more integrity in the St Louis Area Pool community than most people I know or have known. I know I would buy him in an 8 ball auction, whether or not he has played or not in months.

Sianara

 

[Thunderball]

Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.

 

[Maniac]

Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.

Call off the priest!!!!

So Thunderball, what you're saying is that in this current APA session you are only halfway into it and you are ALREADY having to forfeit one match every week ??? That SUCKS BIG-TIME !!!

Maniac

 

[paksat]

Just as a point of fact and real life example:

My apa 8b team started out this session @ 3 3 4 5 5 5 5 6
Currently that same team is handicapped. 4 4 5 6 6 6 6 6

As you can see, everyone except the intial 6 went up. In one freakin session! And these are established long time league players....half or so have a decade in....this team will be no more next session. Sucks.

wow what a joke..

hopefully another league will overtake it or people will smarten up.. probably not.

 

[Thunderball]

Call off the priest!!!!

So Thunderball, what you're saying is that in this current APA session you are only halfway into it and you are ALREADY having to forfeit one match every week ??? That SUCKS BIG-TIME !!!

Maniac

Yup....sucks on more then a few levels. ...been on the 4/19 rule for the last month or better. Everytime we flip the coin to get started we lose a match. The greater problem for me is wtf are we playing for?? To go into the playoffs in this shape?.....to what end? To get to the cities??? Lol ....why waste the time...can't show up there shooting 4 to win 3 and not get crushed...esp when if you consider we can shoot exactly 1 six each match.

I've enjoyed my league nights and my game is up...never did it for the cash...yada yada...but my team must bust up...and if we as players are gonna stay involved we must show and play and pay....and for what? Frustrating as hell at the moment....just blowing money and time now.

I told my team we are gonna handle this like the 300 lol....win every game every match ..hell every lag....we never have bagged...we ain't starting now. We'll go out fighting even if the fight is lost.

 

[paksat]

Yup....sucks on more then a few levels. ...been on the 4/19 rule for the last month or better. Everytime we flip the coin to get started we lose a match. The greater problem for me is wtf are we playing for?? To go into the playoffs in this shape?.....to what end? To get to the cities??? Lol ....why waste the time...can't show up there shooting 4 to win 3 and not get crushed...esp when if you consider we can shoot exactly 1 six each match.

I've enjoyed my league nights and my game is up...never did it for the cash...yada yada...but my team must bust up...and if we as players are gonna stay involved we must show and play and pay....and for what? Frustrating as hell at the moment....just blowing money and time now.

I told my team we are gonna handle this like the 300 lol....win every game every match ..hell every lag....we never have bagged...we ain't starting now. We'll go out fighting even if the fight is lost.

You're playing right into the LO's pocket with that idea.

 

[alstl]

I just joined an APA team for the first time and I'm just a banger. After 3 matches in APA 9 ball my rating is 6. Now I run the risk of being rated so high my team can't use me.

I like the scoring system, am having fun playing, but the limit of 23 seems too restrictive.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

My advice to players wanting to advance and get better at the game:


Once you reach an APA level 6, you should start entering non-APA tournaments that have B or A level players. Once you reach an APA 7 level, you should quit the APA entirely and focus on playing in tournaments or join a BCA league that has a lot of strong players.


That's for people who are using the APA to grow as a player. Once you're a strong 6, there's really nothing left in the APA for you. You'll find that you should beat anyone lower than you at least 90% of the time or more. If you don't, it's just laziness or lack of game discipline. Going from a 6 to a 7 is merely the process of improving cluster management (to increase B&R's), being consistent meaning having better discipline and applying yourself more seriously. That's the only difference. Have to focus more to produce more B&R's and 1 inning games, whereas being a 6 you can snooze through matches and just beat most anyone with just ball pocketing skills and some real basic position play.


For the better player, the APA actually hurts your game. You are subjected to the visual reinforcement of terrible play on league night. Watching 3's smash balls into rails for 30 innings, playing opponents who cannot safe you behind a cluster of 5 balls, watching others and playing others who can barely hold the cue straight or who have poke strokes or no strokes at all. Playing 5's, 6's and even 7's who demonstrate no knowledge whatsoever in the proper way to play 8-ball. You get my point.


It simply isn't challenging. Rarely are you punished for relinquishing control of the table. Rarely do you find yourself in a lock safe that was intentional. Rarely do you ever find yourself up against an opponent who is managing their game according to the principles of good 8-ball play -which in turn should make every game more difficult for you. Instead, you find yourself playing innings and games that are total sell-outs most of the time. If you want to play from sell-out positions, just throw balls out onto the table during practice, take ball in hand, and have at it and get your fix.


APA reinforces lack of discipline, focus, laziness etc. You aren't under pressure. You aren't faced with tough situations as often as you should be. You aren't forced to compete at your best level just to survive.


This hinders growth as a player.


The APA is good for total beginners who are still learning how to bridge. Once you get up to 6 or 7, it's time to move on - otherwise you're just going to languish in an environment of weak play and not improve. Those that stay usually like being the big fish in a little pond. I take no pride in beating up on people who don't know how to hold a cue, who don't have a stroke, who are usually drunk and just bang away at balls once a week. That is why I don't play APA.


Like I said, it isn't all bad. For the beginner, there isn't a better way in. It is awkward and impractical for a beginner to start playing tournaments where the level is too high. Total beginners have a hard time getting games with others because they are too new at the game to offer a match up. Therefore, the APA is a great way to get the foot in the door. To be able to play against other beginners and get some kind of structured matches and competition going.