My First SBE

[ShootingArts]

the wording was what I had issues with

Charlie,

We all manage to dig ourselves in deeper trying to explain things sometimes. The wording of your explanation which both SuperStar and I highlighted is what I objected to very strongly.

Time to move on. I wish you every success in the future.

Hu

You misread what I said, Charlie was not treated differently or did i try to please him in any of my decisions. The only way Charlie was considered differently is because of the match situation. Charlie payed his way just like everyone else and was within his rights to take his other innings. Believe I do not want to lose one player let a lone a few. In my opinion the people that were more important were the ones who had never even played 14.1 before and got exposed to the event.

Again to all involved I do apologize but please believe that when we had issued that statement for the players with matches that it was meant for all players and not just Charlie it just so happened that when Lou got bumped it was for Charlie and I think that is part of the problem.


Perhaps what I should have said in my original response was that as a player who payed their entry and had a match that we were extending the same courtesy to him that we would any other player in that situation so ShootingArts perhaps my wording was poor but believe me we had no problem kicking John Schmidt or Mike Davis off table after their turns when they wanted to keep on shooting.

Again I cant apologize enough as I had no idea the impact of that decision would have. I truly hope that everyone comes out next year and that we have more tables to alleviate this problem. In regards to Charlie Williams being given preferential treatment then I guess I am guilty of it along with a number of other players who had matches that were not Charlie Williams.

Sincerely,
Charlie

 

[sfleinen]

A friendly suggestion for future events of this type

Folks:

(Apologies to everyone that it probably looked like I fell off the edge of the Earth after SBE. Ever since getting back on Sunday night, I was inundated with the "day job" [you know, that "working man" thing that gets in the way of pool]. I promise to write-up my own SBE experience, in my usual "verbal visuals" style, when I get a moment.)

Anyways, without getting into the middle of anything, I want to point something out that might help with scheduling future events. I'm not sure when/what day the issue with Charlie Williams and Lou Figueroa happened, but I *can* tell you this -- Charlie Williams had his second loss from Rodney Morris (and was thus eliminated from the Diamond Pro Players Open 10-ball Championship), on Friday. Again without knowing the timing of the Lou F./Charlie W. thing myself, but I offer that if this issue happened on Saturday, and Charlie said he had a match that day that needed "privileged scheduling" over anyone else, I won't call anyone a liar, but things would be clearly amiss if he said he did. (I will say this -- if Charlie W. said he had a "match" on Saturday -- it clearly wasn't in the Open 10-ball event.)

I would suggest for future events like this, that the TD keep on top of any concurrently-running events. It's not difficult! Just send someone upstairs at various milestone time periods in the day (e.g. morning, noon, mid-afternoon, evening), to view the bracket chart plainly posted on the wall outside the entrance to the main arena. Then, jot the match times down on a napkin (the bracket chart is posted on the wall just above the coffee condiments table) and come back downstairs with the sound knowledge of what big-name player plays when. If a big-name player then tells you that he/she has a match time that needs "privileged scheduling" in the 14.1 event when according to the bracket chart he/she doesn't, he/she is plainly lying, or else talking about a "match" that is other than what the original schedule agreement for the 14.1 event had in mind/spirit (e.g. it might be a private gambling match, which clearly is outside of the "spirit" of the 14.1 event's priority scheduling). It's very easy, folks. No need to place oneself in the vulnerable/exploitable position of "trusting" what someone says because, "oh, he/she is so-and-so big name player!" :bow-down:

Just a friendly suggestion to help avoid this type of situation in the future.
-Sean

P.S.: although I'll make it more clear in my forthcoming "SBE experience" write-up, I thought that Charlie Eames, Steve & Heather Kurtz, & crew did a bang-up job for their first time. I wish things weren't as financially strapped for me as they are, otherwise I would've "done a Bobby Chamberlain" and entered numerous times to get myself used to those strange table conditions (e.g. that "thread-bare looking" Milliken cloth with that spill-proof/water-proof ScotchGuard treatment -- the balls reacted unexpectedly on it, IMHO).

 

[ForumGhost516]

Charlie,

We all manage to dig ourselves in deeper trying to explain things sometimes. The wording of your explanation which both SuperStar and I highlighted is what I objected to very strongly.

Time to move on. I wish you every success in the future.

Hu

Much appreciated Hu have a great day buddy!!

 

[cardiac kid]

Charlie,

Just a suggestion. Why not have two events. One for the true professionals (you know who they are) and one for rest of us mortals? I would support you if I thought I had even an outside chance of doing well (how's that for an excuse).

One comment. During one of my visits to your area, John Schmidt and Dan Barouty were side by side. Most everyone was watching John. At the time, I believe Dan posted a higher run. To me it was like watching the 14.1 dichotome. John playing what I call 9 ball straight pool. Strange patterns but can make anything from anywhere. Came up with this description after racking for Johnny Archer's 200 plus run at the Cleveland Open many years ago. Dan playing in the classic style I grew up with in Rochester. Did anyone else notice this? Am I crazy (please don't answer, I already know)?

Lyn

 

[dmgwalsh]

forum ghost

Charlie: I just want to jump in here and say congratulations for a wonderful event. I was not able to make it but Marop would send me updates by text and phone. I hope to be able to come next year.

Your event sounded like it went better than anyone expected with a lot more participation and spectating than would have been expected. Perceived slow play and scheduling conflicts are always going to be a problem and from what I hear, you handled them well.

I look forward to you growing the event next year to even bigger proportions.

 

[ForumGhost516]

Charlie,

Just a suggestion. Why not have two events. One for the true professionals (you know who they are) and one for rest of us mortals? I would support you if I thought I had even an outside chance of doing well (how's that for an excuse).

One comment. During one of my visits to your area, John Schmidt and Dan Barouty were side by side. Most everyone was watching John. At the time, I believe Dan posted a higher run. To me it was like watching the 14.1 dichotome. John playing what I call 9 ball straight pool. Strange patterns but can make anything from anywhere. Came up with this description after racking for Johnny Archer's 200 plus run at the Cleveland Open many years ago. Dan playing in the classic style I grew up with in Rochester. Did anyone else notice this? Am I crazy (please don't answer, I already know)?

Lyn

I cant agree with you more !!! Although John is a straight pool dynamo no questions asked it seems like his cue ball is a little wild at times!!

Charlie: I just want to jump in here and say congratulations for a wonderful event. I was not able to make it but Marop would send me updates by text and phone. I hope to be able to come next year.

Your event sounded like it went better than anyone expected with a lot more participation and spectating than would have been expected. Perceived slow play and scheduling conflicts are always going to be a problem and from what I hear, you handled them well.

I look forward to you growing the event next year to even bigger proportions.

Dennis i truly appreciate it man you were sorely missed this year and I think the event would have been even better with you there buddy!!.

 

[cardiac kid]

Good grief Charlie, I forgot the most important thing of all. Thank you so much for all the hard work and time invested on our behalf by you and your crew. Wow, I am getting old:embarrassed2:!

Lyn

 

[lfigueroa]

Deleted ............. Im done, you cant please everyone all the time simple as that. For a freshman effort the event was a massive success I agree that the wait list sucks and I apologize to anyone who got bumped for ANY player and I do mean ANY not just Charlie Williams. Next year we are slated to have around 5 to 6 tables which should do away with that problem quite nicely.

As for Bobby if you want to go up and disrespect a man for playing a little slower under some rough conditions who just donated well over 200 dollars to qualify and help support the event even after he was qualified then be my guest but it will be you and not me.

As i said there was only one situation where I felt it needed to be corrected and I did so without hesitation and without question play resumed. Bobby has quite a few friends and fans and it can get rough when people are just waking up to you mid run to chit chat. I saw it happen to Tony Robles.


Again Lou I am very sorry you had a bad time with us. If you come next year as I said Steve Heather and Myself will personally buy you in to the challenge plus at least a beer !!!

Have a great day guys.

Shoot Well
Charlie

Now wait a minute: I have said I think multiple times: good job, your event, your rules.

And in my thread, about my trip to the SBE, I am entitled to write what I observed and what I thought about it. I'm not pissed, I'm not upset. Did I think what happened was right? No. And that's it.

One other comment: you've said a couple of times how much Bobby put it, as in he paid for multiple tries -- as if that should have any bearing on anything. Each $25 should entitle a player to one warm up inning and then five attempts at the challenge. I'm not getting the part where, it would appear from your statements, that after a certain number of buy-ins, the guy gets cut more slack to, for instance, to play slow.

One more time: good job, I'm not pissed -- just writing about how I saw things.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Calm down! The event was the nuts, everyone knows that....

You can't get mad at someone because they take their time on some shots. If a guy is doing it on every single shot then it may be BS.

If you had been there, and saw what I saw, you would have poked your eye out

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, be sure to check out the Jimbo Army site and see all the photos of the party. We had plenty of Bud Light (as well as everything else).

Fred <~~~ didn't have enough Coors Light

arrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhh!

Lou Figueroa
OK, now I'm pissed

 

[lfigueroa]

Ok, let me premise this by saying that THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK.
But I am a very opinionated person, and some things make my blood boil.

So anyway.

This is yet another situation created by players playing in multiple events.
I had posted up another thread a while ago about situations that happened at the Derby, when players were forced to have their tournament matches bumped because of people playing in the 14.1 challenge and taking to long, and having to wait for them as a result.

NOW, the situation is of players IN the 14.1 being bumped to wait for others who are playing in other events.

How is this in any way fair?
Sorry, but as a rule, if you try to please everyone, you are undoubtedly going to step on peoples toes, and piss people off in the process.
Just because no one else has actually come on the forum and actually complained, doesn't mean that they aren't pissed.
Where as, if you didn't make any special accommodations, the ONLY people that would be pissed off would be the ones who wanted special treatment, who didn't get it.

If a player signs up for multiple events, if they can't make it on time, SCREW THEM!
Sorry, but if someone has been waiting, you know who you make wait? The guy who came late, NOT the guy who has been waiting patiently.

I don't care if the SBE promoter Allen Hopkins himself came over and wanted to bump someone so he could take a shot, YOU TELL THEM NO!
ALL you are saying by this is that certain people are more important than others, and if that is the message that you want to give, then this event will always be tainted by it.
Lay some ground rules and stick by them, and everyone falls in line.
You wait your turn, and if your schedule can't accommodate it, tough luck, see you next year.
If that means that some pro has to wait till 2am to try their run, and they have an early match the next day, it's on THEM.
Your responsibility as the tournament director and promoter is TO MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF THE EVENT.
YES, YOU DO bench him. He is just another player.
It IS NOT an impossible situation. You just have to stick to your guns. It's not that hard really.
You mean to tell me that life as we know it, wouldn't be able to go on because someone who expects special treatment doesn't get it one time and might leave as a result? DO THEY OWN THE 14.1 EVENT? DID THEY PUT UP ALL THE MONEY TO MAKE THE 14.1 EVENT HAPPEN? Who the F CARES if they get bent out of shape. Let 'em walk.
I mean, you might have your reasons, but there is no way i would ever kiss someones ass, i don't care WHO they are.
This type of stuff just makes me want to puke.

On another note.

I only was able to stop by the SBE early Saturday evening to meet up with a friend, for a couple of hours.
When we went over to the 14.1 challenge to see how some of the locals might have been doing, there was absolutely nothing to indicate who the leaders were. So when my buddy went over to ask what the high runs were from the person with the clipboard, he was met with the answer, "We aren't releasing that information at this time".
We asked one of the guys we knew who was waiting, and he said he wasn't told.
When we bumped into someone else we knew and asked him if he might know, he knew all the high runs and said the guy with the clipboard had told him earlier, then, yet someone else said that the whole "not releasing the info" answer started after some guys put up some high numbers.

Like what is up with THAT?
I would assume that this was done so that the people who think they have a chance, but who realistically DON'T have a legitimate chance to win or put up some respectable numbers, wouldn't be discouraged by leaders that they have NO chance of competing against, who would then dump some money into the event as a result.
Sorry, but if , and let me repeat that, IF this is what/why it happened, i don't agree with it at all.

I mean, i am all for competing. But i am also for making informed decisions.
Sure, if you have a leader-board with the numbers posted, you might lose a couple of customers, but at least, you are not stealing from the guy who has NO SHOT at winning it, who doesn't know it.
You are still going to get the guys who are there for a good time, and who want to support the event because they love the game, who don't mind spending the cash, but at least the rest of the people who may or may not play, can make that decision knowing all the info.

But finally.
Kudos to everyone involved in making this event happen. I understand that it was a tremendous success, and hopefully it will keep growing.
There are just certain things that i, myself, would do differently.

You're right, it's not fair.

Oh, and you reminded me of the score thing: over the course of two days that I was there, I heard multiple people going up and asking, "So, what's the high run/score?" And they were always told, "We're not giving out that information." How silly is that?!

Once again (for the sensitive ones out there): kudus, nice job, well done.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

If you are looking for criticism, i suggest that you post a thread in 14.1 looking for just that.
You might want to link this thread also, so that people will know what topics have been covered.

The reason i am saying this is that this thread is Lou's SBE thread, and i am sure that there are some 14.1 people who might have passed over it, simply because they are tired of reading SBE threads or don't care, and don't know of the 14.1 details that are inside.

oh yeah. Let's spread the good times around

Lou Figueroa

 

[Eric.]

Good grief Charlie, I forgot the most important thing of all. Thank you so much for all the hard work and time invested on our behalf by you and your crew. Wow, I am getting old:embarrassed2:!

Lyn

I'll second this. It's always nice to see someone stepping up for the love of the sport.


Eric

 

[lfigueroa]

Folks:

(Apologies to everyone that it probably looked like I fell off the edge of the Earth after SBE. Ever since getting back on Sunday night, I was inundated with the "day job" [you know, that "working man" thing that gets in the way of pool]. I promise to write-up my own SBE experience, in my usual "verbal visuals" style, when I get a moment.)

Anyways, without getting into the middle of anything, I want to point something out that might help with scheduling future events. I'm not sure when/what day the issue with Charlie Williams and Lou Figueroa happened, but I *can* tell you this -- Charlie Williams had his second loss from Rodney Morris (and was thus eliminated from the Diamond Pro Players Open 10-ball Championship), on Friday. Again without knowing the timing of the Lou F./Charlie W. thing myself, but I offer that if this issue happened on Saturday, and Charlie said he had a match that day that needed "privileged scheduling" over anyone else, I won't call anyone a liar, but things would be clearly amiss if he said he did. (I will say this -- if Charlie W. said he had a "match" on Saturday -- it clearly wasn't in the Open 10-ball event.)

I would suggest for future events like this, that the TD keep on top of any concurrently-running events. It's not difficult! Just send someone upstairs at various milestone time periods in the day (e.g. morning, noon, mid-afternoon, evening), to view the bracket chart plainly posted on the wall outside the entrance to the main arena. Then, jot the match times down on a napkin (the bracket chart is posted on the wall just above the coffee condiments table) and come back downstairs with the sound knowledge of what big-name player plays when. If a big-name player then tells you that he/she has a match time that needs "privileged scheduling" in the 14.1 event when according to the bracket chart he/she doesn't, he/she is plainly lying, or else talking about a "match" that is other than what the original schedule agreement for the 14.1 event had in mind/spirit (e.g. it might be a private gambling match, which clearly is outside of the "spirit" of the 14.1 event's priority scheduling). It's very easy, folks. No need to place oneself in the vulnerable/exploitable position of "trusting" what someone says because, "oh, he/she is so-and-so big name player!" :bow-down:

Just a friendly suggestion to help avoid this type of situation in the future.
-Sean

P.S.: although I'll make it more clear in my forthcoming "SBE experience" write-up, I thought that Charlie Eames, Steve & Heather Kurtz, & crew did a bang-up job for their first time. I wish things weren't as financially strapped for me as they are, otherwise I would've "done a Bobby Chamberlain" and entered numerous times to get myself used to those strange table conditions (e.g. that "thread-bare looking" Milliken cloth with that spill-proof/water-proof ScotchGuard treatment -- the balls reacted unexpectedly on it, IMHO).

Interesting. You know, I didn't get the whole tournament match conflict thing with CW anyway. I may be off on my time line a bit, but I started waiting somewhere around 830 or 9pm on Friday night. CW walked over, when my name was at the top of the list, at around 11pm. At 1130pm or so, after his warm up and first inning and he started taking multiple innings, I went looking for beer. Was the tournament still running then? Did he have a match at midnight? Or, was he done with the tournament and could have just as well waited for moi to take moi's innings

Lou Figueroa
good job
well done
kudos

 

[sfleinen]

Interesting. You know, I didn't get the whole tournament match conflict thing with CW anyway. I may be off on my time line a bit, but I started waiting somewhere around 830 or 9pm on Friday night. CW walked over, when my name was at the top of the list, at around 11pm. At 1130pm or so, after his warm up and first inning and he started taking multiple innings, I went looking for beer. Was the tournament still running then? Did he have a match at midnight? Or, was he done with the tournament and could have just as well waited for moi to take moi's innings

Lou Figueroa
good job
well done
kudos

Lou:

Again, I'm not trying to pour gasoline on a fire, but I think Charlie W. was already "done" (read: finito) by that time. I'm fairly sure his match with Rodney was scheduled at 6:30pm on Friday. He didn't make it into the later rounds that evening.

So methinks the C.W. waiting for "twoi" (second person variant of "moi"? ) should've been the outcome, but unfortunately wasn't.

No use in crying over spilled milk, though. I'm pretty sure Charlie E. & crew now know what to look out for in next year's event, and not to trust what a "big name" player says just "because" he/she is a big name player. Unfortunately the pro pool playing crowd isn't beyond the "you first, after me" exploitive selfishness.

-Sean

Late edit P.S.: the last matches of each day were scheduled at 10:30pm. It definitely is true that matches run long and can sometimes stretch past midnight, but unless Charlie was the unfortunate victim of a runaway train like an on-fire SVB that ran every rack including the ones that Charlie broke but didn't make a ball (and did so in 30 minutes), Charlie wouldn't be telling you at 11pm that he still had a match -- the 10:30pm last matches of the day were already underway.

 

[ForumGhost516]

Guys seriously like I said multiple times now I am sorry for what had happened. As for the tournament still going I have confirmation that on some nights there were matches that ended at 1:30 AM as one of my closest friends was event staff. Now whether or not Charlie W had a match at that time or not I dont know but I also did not check into it at that time I figured I could take him at his word.

Again I truly am sorry and at this point I dont know what else you guys want me to say. Please tell me and I will gladly say or do it.

Charlie

 

[SUPERSTAR]

You're right, it's not fair.

Oh, and you reminded me of the score thing: over the course of two days that I was there, I heard multiple people going up and asking, "So, what's the high run/score?" And they were always told, "We're not giving out that information." How silly is that?!

Once again (for the sensitive ones out there): kudus, nice job, well done.

Lou Figueroa

It always was evidently clear to me, that when you begin to make some exceptions for people, that you are also causing other people to suffer the consequences for those exceptions in some way or form.
And that by allowing preferential behavior, you are actually reinforcing it so that people begin to do it MORE, because you are saying it is O K.

I know guys who don't play in the expo anymore.
It isn't because they don't like the expo, no, not at all. It is because they love the action and mini tournaments that go one locally during the expo.
To them, THAT is what is more important, so that is what they focus on.
They know that they could play in the expo, and then after the day is done, go to the local pool halls and play in more tournaments, and potentially match up, and stay up late till the early hours of the morning, and that if they have to go play at the expo again on no sleep or just a couple of hours sleep, that it is THEIR FAULT if they fall apart and take themselves out of the running.

THAT is what some of the pool players that want special treatment should do. They should consciously pick and chose which event is more important to them or simply, play by the rule that everyone else is playing by.

I am positive that there were people who showed up at the expo SPECIFICALLY FOR the 14.1, and who probably played in nothing else.
Why should they be penalized for having the ability to prioritize, because someone else can't?
Allen Hopkins has that rule, where you can sign up for multiple events, but if you have 2 matches that are in conflict, he will do nothing, and it is entirely up to the player to decide which event is more important and forfeit the other.

I don't see why that should be any different of an independent event.
If someone's schedule can't hack it, let THEM decide if they want to play at their allotted time, and if they think it's worth it to play if it might conflict with something else.

I KNOW that there are some pros out there who want to cash in everything they possibly can, but if accommodating them comes at the expense of someone else, F 'em! Let THEM sit there and wait all night till their name comes up like everyone else.

 

[ForumGhost516]

It always was evidently clear to me, that when you begin to make some exceptions for people, that you are also causing other people to suffer the consequences for those exceptions in some way or form.
And that by allowing preferential behavior, you are actually reinforcing it so that people begin to do it MORE, because you are saying it is O K.

I know guys who don't play in the expo anymore.
It isn't because they don't like the expo, no, not at all. It is because they love the action and mini tournaments that go one locally during the expo.
To them, THAT is what is more important, so that is what they focus on.
They know that they could play in the expo, and then after the day is done, go to the local pool halls and play in more tournaments, and potentially match up, and stay up late till the early hours of the morning, and that if they have to go play at the expo again on no sleep or just a couple of hours sleep, that it is THEIR FAULT if they fall apart and take themselves out of the running.

THAT is what some of the pool players that want special treatment should do. They should consciously pick and chose which event is more important to them or simply, play by the rule that everyone else is playing by.

I am positive that there were people who showed up at the expo SPECIFICALLY FOR the 14.1, and who probably played in nothing else.
Why should they be penalized for having the ability to prioritize, because someone else can't?
Allen Hopkins has that rule, where you can sign up for multiple events, but if you have 2 matches that are in conflict, he will do nothing, and it is entirely up to the player to decide which event is more important and forfeit the other.

I don't see why that should be any different of an independent event.
If someone's schedule can't hack it, let THEM decide if they want to play at their allotted time, and if they think it's worth it to play if it might conflict with something else.

I KNOW that there are some pros out there who want to cash in everything they possibly can, but if accommodating them comes at the expense of someone else, F 'em! Let THEM sit there and wait all night till their name comes up like everyone else.

Once again guys I apologize for this and will continue to do so while this thread keeps on getting hits. I dont know what else to do at this point but keep on apologizing.

Charlie

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Again I truly am sorry and at this point I dont know what else you guys want me to say. Please tell me and I will gladly say or do it.

Charlie

First off, STOP APOLOGIZING!
You only need to apologize once, and that is if you are genuinely sorry.
If people want you to apologize repeatedly, or you yourself feel the need, don't do it.
I personally am not asking for an apology.

I know that this is the 1st time the expo had this event.
And if you don't know what problems can occur, you learn from mistakes.
Simple as that.
Considering that this was the first time at the expo, you should be proud that it went so well.
As for all criticism, they can only make you reflect on potential future events.

I'm not here to rip you a new one.
I'm just offering my insight, that's all.
Just aim bigger and better, and take all criticisms, and ANALYZE them so that you can use that knowledge towards next year.

Good luck with everything.

 

[ForumGhost516]

First off, STOP APOLOGIZING!
You only need to apologize once, and that is if you are genuinely sorry.
If people want you to apologize repeatedly, or you yourself feel the need, don't do it.
I personally am not asking for an apology.

I know that this is the 1st time the expo had this event.
And if you don't know what problems can occur, you learn from mistakes.
Simple as that.
Considering that this was the first time at the expo, you should be proud that it went so well.
As for all criticism, they can only make you reflect on potential future events.

I'm not here to rip you a new one.
I'm just offering my insight, that's all.
Just aim bigger and better, and take all criticisms, and ANALYZE them so that you can use that knowledge towards next year.

Good luck with everything.

Im trying to get past it but obviously everyone else cant. The problem has been addressed now for the last six pages etc. with everyone's opinions (ok cool open forum I get that) but wasnt expecting this much response.

And as for my apology yes it is quite genuine. I do feel badly about the situation and I guess from here on out I am going to keep my mouth shut now. I have said my peace realized my mistake and will not do it next year I hope everyone can live with that now and leave it to rest.